[06:43] <ducasse> good morning
[08:01] <lordievader> Good morning
[10:38] <lotuspsychje> good morning
[13:32] <deadrom> hi
[13:32] <lotuspsychje> deadrom: the scope of ubuntu support is advising also the packages from the official repos
[13:33] <deadrom> I was just told on #ubuntu that src compiling is not endorsed. is that an official statement?
[13:34] <lotuspsychje> deadrom: i also did not speak against compiling software, i just said it wasnt adviced in the support channel
[13:34] <lotuspsychje> users can do what they want with their systems
[13:35] <pragmaticenigma> deadrom: #ubuntu is about supporting the Ubuntu platform as it is provided through the official Ubuntu software channels. You can compile your own applications, but #ubuntu is not the place to receive support for those applications that you have compiled (or assistance with compilation.)
[13:36] <deadrom> that's pretty limiting.
[13:38] <deadrom> in the matter at hand that means assisting in installing tor browser on 18.04 would not have been "proper" #ubuntu talk because tor browser is not in ubuntu
[13:38] <deadrom> where do you draw the line?
[13:39] <pragmaticenigma> deadrom: The volunteers leverage the documentation that is provided by the Ubuntu community and Canonical that are made available through Ubuntu's official websites. It's also a known state, that the version of an application I'm running should be the same version you are running. If you compile something, I have no way of knowing that the latest version has some new feature.
[13:41] <lordievader> Very black and white: only the stuff from the Ubuntu repositories is supported. That said, volunteers who happen to have an interest in the question at hand may be able to assist.
[13:41] <pragmaticenigma> deadrom: And most applications that you can compile, have support sites of their own for assistance. Think of #ubuntu being very general... you need something more specific, you should really look to the community that supports that application to get better help than what #ubuntu could provide you with.
[13:42] <deadrom> linux or oss in general should be a bit bigger than this. keeping strictly to one's enclave will make you a secluded outsider. I see your point and I see how one should mention when leaving the home plate and wandering into the dark forest, but I don't expect to be restricted when pointing out that answers lie in it
[13:44] <lordievader> deadrom: You're not. Most things you stumble into with compiling software outside of the repo other people have stumbled into aswell and are able to help out.
[13:44] <pragmaticenigma> deadrom: again, that's why there are so many channels on freenode. Expand your horizons... plenty of resources on here. Or in the case of "tor" they are part of another IRC network, but would be a much better resource for supporting their application. See https://support.torproject.org/get-in-touch/#irc-help for more information
[13:44] <deadrom> lordievader, not quite what we had in the channel now.
[13:45] <lordievader> The thing is, you can't demand support for something outside of the "home plate". The line of supporting and not-supporting needs to be drawn somewhere. The repo is a logical choice for this.
[13:45] <lordievader> deadrom: Different people have different definitions for what is considered offtopic 😉
[13:46]  * pragmaticenigma catching up, I see you weren't the one seeking help with compliation.... someone else was
[13:47] <deadrom> pragmaticenigma, which I pointed out to the user who asked about it. the followup questions pointed away from ubuntu so I helped out here - -because I have a rahter wide horizon, some irony telling me so while staking the claim with a ruler
[13:47] <lotuspsychje> deadrom: there also tor snaps by the way, now also a supported way by ubuntu
[13:48] <deadrom> lordievader, i dod not demand anything at all. I was telling a user where to find solutions that lay outside ubuntu when he started a project on this platform
[13:48] <deadrom> *did
[13:49] <lordievader> deadrom: And you got told off for telling someone where to find solutions/resources?
[13:49] <deadrom> lotuspsychje, canonical maintains the code in the snaps?
[13:50] <lotuspsychje> deadrom: no, snaps are a tolerated medium now on ubuntu, but its the maintainer that will support it
[13:50] <deadrom> lordievader, "told off" would be too harsh, but the bounds of #ubuntu were pointed out clearly
[13:51] <deadrom> lotuspsychje, how the heck is that any different from ppas?
[13:51] <pragmaticenigma> Here's where I take issue with assisting beyond the what most have established as the boundary. It's great if someone is able to help with a specific need, even if it is out of scope of what the overall channel believes is "on-topic." What I have concerns with is when someone, such as yourself, isn't in channel anymore and that person comes back looking for more assistance. Now that person started with a pleasent
[13:51] <pragmaticenigma> experience and now has a negative one becuase they feel abandoned. It was no fault of the helper, but now there is a user that keeps coming back expecting everyone to be just like that one helpful person that is no longer here. That is why it's preferred to stick to the repos as a base of what is and isn't supported. everyone has an equal chance of getting continuing help
[13:52] <lordievader> deadrom: Oh, that is odd. Good that you where trying to help 👍️
[13:53] <lordievader> pragmaticenigma: I'd say that is more a problem of IRC in general.
[13:53] <lotuspsychje> deadrom: snaps are containerized, and wont get the system in trouble with dependency issues for example
[13:53] <lotuspsychje> deadrom: but, we do warn our users too, to trust the maintainer of the snap, just like the ppa
[13:53] <deadrom> pragmaticenigma, good point, I readily admit. well-- how do we handle this in a quick and efficient manner? how about a bot command " !warn user" that shoots a quick disclaimer? "this is outside ubuntu, the community will not necessarily be able to assist you with this while the people currently around are"
[13:54] <deadrom> once people have seen others use it they should follow the example
[13:54] <pragmaticenigma> it's the reason that when someone comes in with a question that I feel isn't supportable, I make my best effort to direct them to the resource that will better suit their needs. I personally hate the bot, if only becuase the triggers start with a bang, and I read that as "negative"
[13:55] <lotuspsychje> deadrom: aka: !compile & !ppa
[13:55] <pragmaticenigma> A lot of the bot responses are way too harsh in my opinion
[13:55] <pragmaticenigma> !compile
[13:55] <pragmaticenigma> !ppa
[13:56] <deadrom> pragmaticenigma, but follow the "limits of #ubuntu" idea. extend your horizon a bit beyond your personal notion ;)
[13:56] <lordievader> <pragmaticenigma "it's the reason that when someon"> This is a nice approach, I like it.
[13:57] <deadrom> ok! will use those. did not know. need to be around more :)
[13:58] <deadrom> while *i* for one clearly would not recommend checkinstall, that's dirty deb building and leads to explosions
[13:59] <lordievader> But exploding installs are the best installs 😝
[13:59] <deadrom> ok, good talk.
[14:00] <deadrom> if you like explosions, which I do, but not so much on my raid
[14:10] <Menzador|Work> poofie
[14:46] <pragmaticenigma> scary to think someone is still running 12.04 (potentially as a public facing server)
[14:46] <lordievader> You don' t want to know what some public facing servers run...
[14:48] <leftyfb> I'm still running a 12.04 server, but it's not public facing. It used to, among a bunch of other functions, but now it's file serving up files via cifs and waiting to be replaced with a new one this summer when the makerspace buys it's own building and moves
[15:05] <Ussat> 12.04.....
[15:05] <Ussat> I got all uppity when the path lab here was on 14.04 and 16
[17:02] <lotuspsychje> what was jeremy31 solution?
[17:03] <Psi-Jack> It was backports-iwlwifi-dkms. ;)
[17:05] <lotuspsychje> nice
[17:05] <Psi-Jack> https://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=2432901
[17:05] <Psi-Jack> basically this, where Linux 5.3.0-40 specifically breaks Intel IWL.
[17:06] <Psi-Jack> But, 5.3.0-28 (LTS), and 5.3.0-18 (19.10), it works still, before the 40 build.
[17:06] <lotuspsychje> is there an ongoing bug for this already?
[17:06] <Psi-Jack> Yep.
[17:06] <lotuspsychje> whats the ID plz?
[17:08] <Psi-Jack> https://bugs.launchpad.net/hwe-next/+bug/1833065
[17:08] <Psi-Jack> That's one, not sure if it's exactly identicle, but it looks related.
[17:08] <lotuspsychje> tnx
[17:09] <Psi-Jack> Then there's also https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/linux-oem-osp1/+bug/1834415
[17:09] <lotuspsychje> seems like kenperkins added his comment on it
[17:09] <Psi-Jack> Yep. As well as mine. :)
[17:10] <Psi-Jack> Which finally confirmed the bug as a bug.
[17:12] <lotuspsychje> well there's a lot of intel wifi bugs out there
[17:12] <Psi-Jack> Which,.... Is actually odd to me. They've had the best WiFi on the market, for a long time....
[17:13] <Psi-Jack> I had a Samsung laptop, and before I returned it for major hardware issues (including self-corrupting m.2 SATA SSD), it had the later Atheros WiFi, and it worked great.
[17:14] <Psi-Jack> kenperkins: So... Have you tried it yet? ;)
[17:15] <Psi-Jack> heh. Been trying to test out Bitwarden myself lately, running my own server, but egawds, their server is such a PITA.
[17:19] <pragmaticenigma> and someone in the world learns again why unattended upgrades in production might not be a great idea
[17:22] <Psi-Jack> LOL
[17:22] <lotuspsychje> being server admin is surely not an easy task
[17:23] <Psi-Jack> Well, at least we don't have floppy disks anymore, because, lately with all these laptops having powerful magnets in them... Heh
[17:32] <pragmaticenigma> oh... I still use magnetic media around my stuff (but I'm not an systems admin at a company... just a hobbiest
[17:34] <Psi-Jack> hehe
[17:35] <kenperkins> i tried the ubuntu built mainline 5.4.x and 5.5.x and wifi worked, but no audio
[17:35] <Psi-Jack> I was surprised when my Tabtop and MBP both had super strong magnets when USB dongles just.... affixed themselves onto those spots.
[17:35] <Psi-Jack> 5.4.x worked with IWL and Audio for me. 5.5.x broke audio. (but this was not ubuntu)
[18:34] <kenperkins> @Psi-Jack working, just about to start
[18:35] <kenperkins> https://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=2432901
[18:36] <Psi-Jack> #3
[18:37] <oerheks> Psi-Jack, shared the iwlwifi-backport?
[18:38] <daftykins> hmm is cometlake the one that integrated the wifi onto the CPU die / PCH (on package) for the first time i wonder o0
[18:38] <daftykins> i forget which generation was going that way
[18:38] <Psi-Jack> yeah., He was having the exact same issue with the same Intel IWL hardware, different packaging around it. :)
[18:38] <Psi-Jack> daftykins: I don't ... think so? From videos I've seen there's an mPCIe network adapter in this tabtop. But, I haven't yet cracked it open to verify that.
[18:39] <Psi-Jack> Dissassembly videos of my Yoga C740-14IML that is.
[18:39] <daftykins> ah yes it is on CPU, that's what CNVi means
[18:40] <daftykins> apparently the digital portion is there, but the analog is still external
[18:40] <Psi-Jack> Oh... Interesting.
[18:40] <daftykins> https://blog.wirelessmoves.com/2017/09/like-the-gpu-wifi-now-moves-into-the-intel-cpu.html
[18:40] <kenperkins> ok rebooting with it
[18:41] <kenperkins> we (Psi-Jack) and I both have comet lake cpus with the intel ac 9560
[18:41] <kenperkins> Psi-Jack: @jeremy31 that indeed solved the problem
[18:41] <lotuspsychje> jeremy31 is the iwlwifi wizard :p
[18:42] <kenperkins> @jeremy31 at some point, presumeably they'll fix this upstream; how do I get back to the distro's iwl
[18:42] <Psi-Jack> Now, we just need to have linux-*5.3.0-x to be fixed. :D
[18:43] <daftykins> https://www.cnx-software.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/08/Intel-CNVi.jpg - interesting
[18:43] <daftykins> so yeah the MAC is in the PCH
[18:44] <Psi-Jack> Intel incorporates more Evil Inside?    This is why I wanted a Ryzen tabtop and not Intel. :(
[18:44] <daftykins> Ryzen will be rubbish for both Linux and mobile for another couple of generations i'd say
[18:45] <daftykins> AMD has pretty much always remained behind in mobile (if you care about battery life that is)
[18:45] <sarnold> I don't believe AMD is much better than intel that respect https://libreboot.org/faq.html#amd
[18:46] <sarnold> (though amd has faired drastically better than intel on all the cpu architectural flaws of the last few years)
[18:48] <daftykins> does kinda make me think it's only a matter of time before we hear about being able to pwn someones laptop over wifi due to say, perhaps a combined exploit against this new CNVio interface and Intel ME or SGX combined perhaps :)
[18:48] <daftykins> i have no idea what i'm talking about though as security research isn't my field
[18:49] <Psi-Jack> Especially with the Comet Lake Management Engine Interface.
[18:49] <daftykins> that's what i mean by ME there ja
[18:49] <Psi-Jack> yeah, That's one part of Intel I've REALLY been highly opposed to.
[18:50] <Psi-Jack> Though CL-MEI isn't officially supported until Linux 5.4, which Ubuntu officially doesn't yet come with, stock standard.
[18:52] <tomreyn> so because the OS doesn't support it that means it's safe? :)
[18:52] <Psi-Jack> Not necessarily no. LOL
[18:52] <tomreyn> https://github.com/corna/me_cleaner
[18:53] <tomreyn> i'm not sure this works on comet lake, though
[18:53] <pragmaticenigma> Our resident troll ptah is back
[18:55] <tomreyn> just because i'm discussing ME removal? :-P
[18:58] <tomreyn> oh you mean in #ubuntu :)
[18:58] <tomreyn> i think network-manager still uses dhclient btw., at least on 18.04
[18:58] <pragmaticenigma> yeah... cause tomreyn != ptah
[18:59] <tomreyn> i can confirm this.
[18:59] <Psi-Jack> Finally! Got my own Bitwarden server running. Freaking mssql docker instance was insisting on having 2GB RAM, just to run. :/
[19:00] <pragmaticenigma> sarnold: ptah is trolling... he was in ##linux with the statement "I don't even run linux"
[19:01] <sarnold> pragmaticenigma: oh jeeze
[19:02] <oerheks> yeah, how unlikely his system got corrupted with upgrading firefox like that
[19:03] <oerheks> oh, he is back in #linux after kick
[19:03] <oerheks> just lonely people, i guess
[19:08] <daftykins> :)
[19:08] <Ussat> Psi-Jack, we do here also
[19:08] <Psi-Jack> We do?
[19:08] <Ussat> We do, my team uses Bitwarden
[19:08] <Psi-Jack> Oh!
[19:09] <Ussat> We run our own Bitwarden server also
[19:09] <Psi-Jack> I'm checking out Bitwarden from using Enpass, where, the software is closed source, but the location I can store my database is my own.
[19:09] <Ussat> We are very happy with it
[19:10] <Psi-Jack> So far, after getting the server itself running, it's not seeming bad at all. I don't like that their server uses mssql.
[19:10] <Ussat> ya well
[19:11] <Psi-Jack> hehe
[19:11] <Ussat> I was not thrilled, but still. We like it
[19:11] <Psi-Jack> it does warrant more testing, and evaluation at the least.
[19:12] <Ussat> Ya, we are still in that phase
[19:15] <Psi-Jack> Hmmm.. I see it has a TOTP token input.. But doesn't seem to show the TOTP value or provide it as a means to copy it.
[19:15] <kenperkins> I'm pretty thrilled that worked
[19:18] <Psi-Jack> And no one's gonna save you from the beast about to strike?
[19:22] <ducasse> there's no rescue from the management engine
[19:23] <Psi-Jack> Except, don't use Intel.
[19:23] <ducasse> amd has pretty much the same thing, don't they?
[19:25] <Psi-Jack> They have something called TrustZone.
[19:26] <daftykins> totally different
[19:27] <Psi-Jack> yeah, that looks totally different.
[19:28] <Psi-Jack> Oh sheash... To use the TOTP tokens in Bitwarden, you have to pay for the premium features. (Granted, $10/yr).
[19:31] <daftykins> yikes that's not something i'd touch then
[19:31] <daftykins> i'm actually about to be converting a client over to a password management setup since their idea of security is one or two passwords for everything saved in a 2003 MS Word .doc easily searchable on the PC
[19:32] <Psi-Jack> Yeah. I'm better off with Enpass on that regards.
[19:32] <daftykins> current plan was KeePassXC without the browser integration and a nice master password, but i'm really hesitant based on the user training hassle
[19:32] <Psi-Jack> I believe, with Enpass, I simply paid for the mobile apps, and the rest is completely without charge. Closed source, but I sync it up on my own NextCloud server. It just lacks a CLI.
[19:33] <Psi-Jack> KeePassXC is nice, but it's the mobile apps for KeePass that just absolutely suck.
[19:33] <pragmaticenigma> Can't say I have had much issue with the KeePass app that I use on Android
[19:33] <Psi-Jack> Well, the only somewhat half decent KeePass client or iOS is KyPass, and.. It's atrocious.
[19:34] <Ussat> If 10$ a year is bank breaking......bigger issues :)
[19:34] <daftykins> i think for this client mobile isn't important so i won't be enabling that
[19:35] <Psi-Jack> It's not. it's the constant payments for a single feature?
[19:35] <Ussat> eh....cost of business....hardly a deal breaker and honestly....people need to be paid
[19:35] <Psi-Jack> true. $10/yr is honestly NOT that bad.
[19:36] <Psi-Jack> Considering I used to pay LastPass $12/yr :)
[19:36] <Psi-Jack> Just for 2FA.
[19:36] <Psi-Jack> But, then they wanted more money.
[19:38] <Psi-Jack> And in this case, $10/yr is actually more 2 features for me. 2FA login and TOTP.
[19:39] <daftykins> i was thinking about throwing these folks on a simple paid platform, but i would rather none of it lived online really
[19:41] <Psi-Jack> Still though, I'd like even a trial of the premium features, so I can validate whether or not it's worth it. :)
[19:42] <daftykins> yeah that makes sense
[19:45] <Psi-Jack> Yeah. Enpass, I have that. I just have it login, then the TOTP prompt comes up, and I paste in, and it works, every time. Bitwarden disables that entirely unless you have a premium account.
[19:47] <Ussat> Psi-Jack, you can email and ask for one....thats what I did
[19:47] <Psi-Jack> heh, course the other factor. Running my own bitwarden server, getting it to send a verification email, seems.... Problematic.
[19:47] <Psi-Jack> Oh?
[19:47] <Ussat> yup
[19:47] <Psi-Jack> They will give a trial premium membership?
[19:47] <Ussat> But, like I said I am useing it for my whole team
[19:47] <Ussat> and wanted to eval it
[19:47] <Psi-Jack> Right.
[19:47] <Ussat> Psi-Jack, they did me
[19:48] <Psi-Jack> Well, that's something :)
[19:48] <Ussat> JUst shot em an email on my work email account
[19:49] <Ussat> Cant hurt to ask :)
[19:49] <Psi-Jack> I'd be asking from my "work" email address too, since it's from my own domain name. hehe
[19:49] <Ussat> We are also VERY heavy duo users
[19:51] <Psi-Jack> I use Yubico and U2F, myself.
[19:53] <Ussat> Ya, some people here have Yubico (I do) but we are also heavy DUO users. I work in a clinical env and we have HIPAA data we deal with
[19:53] <Psi-Jack> Ahhh, fun fun.
[19:53] <Ussat> EVERYTHING is 2FA
[19:53] <Psi-Jack> Well, New Yubikey 5 is FIPS. :)
[19:53] <Ussat> NIce
[19:53] <Psi-Jack> :)
[19:54] <Psi-Jack> I know,. I plan to get a few upgrades. L(
[19:54] <Psi-Jack> :)
[19:54] <Ussat> yup.......we will prob look into it
[19:54] <Psi-Jack> I have 4 Yubikey 4's.
[19:54] <Ussat> infosec dept is VERY security paranoid
[19:54] <Psi-Jack> 1 was actually a gift from Yubico for failing to ship my order from Amazon. In fact, until I communicated with them, nobody even noticed.
[19:55] <Ussat> which is good, because the Dept of Health Human services levies HUGE fines
[19:55] <Psi-Jack> Hmmm.. I don't see a single way to configure or otherwise, get some kind of email pathway setup for this bitwarden server.
[19:58] <Psi-Jack> Ahh, env/*
[20:05] <JoeLlama> moo
[20:08] <sarnold> llamas don't moo! deception uncloaked!
[20:08] <daftykins> xD
[20:08] <daftykins> cannot confirm, haven't met a llama... but if winamp's old startup sound is anything to go by, they sound more like sheep
[20:09] <JoeLlama> hi sarnold
[20:09] <JoeLlama> it really whips my ass daftykins
[20:09] <sarnold> I don't remember a winamp startup sound
[20:09] <JoeLlama> so sarnold xubuntu installed and working
[20:09] <daftykins> :)
[20:09] <daftykins> sarnold: to be more accurate it was the one-time play post install
[20:09] <JoeLlama> yes winamp really whips the llamas ass (google)
[20:10] <daftykins> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HaF-nRS_CWM
[20:10] <daftykins> still no news on the new version :(
[20:10] <sarnold> JoeLlama: woo! nice :)
[20:10] <JoeLlama> sarnold now looking at chromium and opera for browser for faster startup etc.//
[20:11] <JoeLlama> can't install brave on the 32 bit box
[20:11] <daftykins> are you finding Firefox slow? o0
[20:11] <daftykins> 32-bit? nooooo
[20:11] <JoeLlama> yes very slow
[20:11] <JoeLlama> VERY slow
[20:11] <sarnold> daftykins: lollol
[20:11] <daftykins> even with a clean profile?
[20:11] <JoeLlama> on an intel atom n270 1.6 GHz
[20:12] <JoeLlama> little 9 inch laptop
[20:12] <daftykins> ah well see, that's your problem, you're using a calculator as a computer
[20:12] <JoeLlama> clean profile?
[20:12] <JoeLlama> do tell
[20:12] <JoeLlama> yes :)
[20:12] <JoeLlama> single core two threads (: heh
[20:12] <JoeLlama> yes yes I have a pile of these
[20:12] <daftykins> sorry, knowing it's that hardware it's not worth it
[20:13] <JoeLlama> a fancy calculator more powerful than a cray
[20:13] <daftykins> err no it's not
[20:13] <JoeLlama> no not worth it
[20:13] <JoeLlama> need lite weight browser
[20:13] <JoeLlama> I also have a pile of Intel Atom n450 computers (upgrading them to n470)
[20:13] <JoeLlama> but those are 64 bit
[20:14] <JoeLlama> no it's not?
[20:14] <JoeLlama> crays were pretty slow compared to these days
[20:15] <JoeLlama> gunna moo
[20:15] <JoeLlama> moo
[20:15] <JoeLlama> cellphones have more power than crays
[20:15] <JoeLlama> and don't get as hot :)
[20:15] <JoeLlama> I have a two 2.8 GHz boxes next
[20:16] <JoeLlama> one for windows 10 (ew ew!) and one for linux
[20:16] <sarnold> I'm really impressed these little things work well enough to keep em going
[20:17] <JoeLlama> also have a flash drive I need to cut open with dremel and resolder plug...  I will install ISO to that
[20:17] <JoeLlama> yes sarnold they work realloy well just slow
[20:17] <JoeLlama> like rock solid work well :)
[20:17] <JoeLlama> takes 7 to 10 seconds to open firefox so firefox is going away
[20:18] <JoeLlama> I like opera
[20:18] <JoeLlama> chromium was recommeneded
[20:18] <sarnold> try this :) http://edbrowse.org/
[20:18] <JoeLlama> oOo I look
[20:19] <JoeLlama> main problem I find with browers is that not all of them work with every site
[20:19] <JoeLlama> firefox seems to work with them all
[21:08] <Bashing-om> UWN619 is on the streets: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuWeeklyNewsletter/Issue619