[10:32] <bluesabre> Shew, took half an hour, but finished wallpaper voting
[10:33] <jphilips> \o/
[10:41] <bluesabre> knome: that's true, but I think there's  a barrier to getting in the ubuntu etherpad group these days iirc
[10:46] <jphilips> tried to switch to etherpad when i volunteered at libreoffice, but it was to complicated and getting in the way of work
[10:47] <jphilips> they began using libreoffice online
[10:48] <jphilips> etherpad was definitely fine for meeting minutes, but not for document formatting
[10:48] <jphilips> knome: in the press has been updated :D
[10:49] <jphilips> https://xubuntu.org/press/
[19:42] <dbrgn> hi, is the wallpaper contest closed? the submit button is still there, but when i click it I don't see a submit form...
[19:42] <dbrgn> wanted to submit a few photos tonight.
[19:43] <jphilips> dbrgn: yes it was closed on the 13th
[19:52] <dbrgn> jphilips: ok, would be great if that date could be put up on the website (and the submit button removed).
[19:53] <dbrgn> there are some nice contenders in the list of submissions already :) (as an idea, maybe photos that don't match the requested format, like photos in portrait orientation, could be filtered out directly in the submit form.)
[19:55] <jphilips> yep it would have been nice to clearly indicate that on the website.
[19:56] <jphilips> knome: any possibility of adding that
[20:53] <jphilips> meeting starting in another 7 minutes. hope all are ready
[21:00] <Unit193> #startmeeting
[21:00] <meetingology> Meeting started Thu Mar 19 21:00:01 2020 UTC.  The chair is Unit193. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
[21:00] <meetingology> Available commands: action commands idea info link nick
[21:00] <Unit193> !team | Everyone here?
[21:00] <bluesabre> o/
[21:00] <jphilips> \o
[21:01] <bluesabre> Working from home makes the commute significantly faster
[21:01] <Unit193> Hah, that it does.  Also the attire?
[21:01] <jphilips> heard on a podcast the people should have a pajamas for sleeping and pajamas for work
[21:02] <jphilips> that* people
[21:02] <bluesabre> Business casual for zoom calls, Sean casual otherwise
[21:02] <Unit193> We can't vote on anything if more don't show up.
[21:02] <pleia2> o/
[21:02] <Unit193> \o/
[21:02] <Unit193> #topic Open action items
[21:03] <Unit193> I don't see any open action items from the last meeting, just a couple links.
[21:04] <Unit193> #topic Updates and Announcements
[21:04] <Unit193> #info Most of the Xfce 4.14 updates are ready and in focal
[21:04] <Unit193> #info Wallpaper contest is now closed and we're all supposed to vote!
[21:04] <Unit193> bluesabre?
[21:04] <bluesabre> #info Feature Freeze is past us.
[21:05] <bluesabre> #info User Interface Freeze is today.
[21:05] <bluesabre> #info jphilips has breathed new life into our social media
[21:06] <bluesabre> That might be all that I'm currently aware of.
[21:06] <bluesabre> Kinda coming off of a long been-too-busy-at-work-to-contribute hiatus
[21:08] <Unit193> #topic Discussion items
[21:08] <Unit193> #subtopic UI and UX tweaks
[21:08] <Unit193> jphilips: You have the floor.
[21:09] <jphilips> i've submitted user interface and user experience tweaks suggestions that i believe will improve the experience for users
[21:09] <jphilips> they range from improvements to the desktop, panel, whisker menu, thunar, and keyboard shortcuts
[21:10] <jphilips> should we go one by one through them?
[21:11] <jphilips> or should members vote/comment in the google doc?
[21:11] <jphilips> the link is here - https://docs.google.com/document/d/1hzvQURi8l--GrfqsxP9c0tWNUzrkbZjZTiVxGUegALg/edit#
[21:12] <bluesabre> Good question.
[21:12] <Unit193> I'm not too sure about removing the 'removable devices' from the desktop, those are also any flash drives on might plug in, etc.
[21:13] <jphilips> a number of people have complained about the rpool and the likes also showing up on the desktop
[21:13] <bluesabre> Yeah, but that's more of an issue with Xfce/GVFS support of zfs
[21:13] <jphilips> users have easy access to all of these items in thunar and if they don't like the default they can enable the option
[21:15] <jphilips> also mentioned in my reasoning is that there is no means to only show flash drives and not internal partitions and it not showing network shares, which means the functionality isnt functioning as it should
[21:16] <jphilips> having a clean desktop is good UX, which users can then fill up with what they wish to see on their desktop
[21:17] <Unit193> bluesabre: Anything else popping out at you?
[21:17] <pleia2> I haven't used the defaults in a long time, what exactly happens now when you plug in a usb stick by default? aside from showing up on the desktop
[21:18] <bluesabre> Unit193: I've been adding a variety of comments to the Google doc itself
[21:18] <jphilips> pleia2: the default behaviour is that thunar opens up when you plugin a usb
[21:19] <jphilips> unless you disable it in 'removable drives and media'
[21:19] <pleia2> gotcha, that seems sufficient
[21:22] <bluesabre> I'm not sure about the 24px panel icons
[21:22] <bluesabre> They feel obnoxiously large :D
[21:22] <pleia2> hehe
[21:23] <jphilips> well dont open the whisker menu :D
[21:23] <bluesabre> I mean, they're larger than the window controls that they are always hovering on top of
[21:24] <jphilips> could you clarify with a screenshot
[21:26] <bluesabre> https://i.imgur.com/wjSFbVE.png
[21:26] <Unit193> Desktop changes seem fine enough, though as noted above.  In the panel section changing the sorting order seems fine as that's also what I happen to use, adding the new favorites to whisker also seems fine.  Not fond of some of the other changes though.
[21:26] <jphilips> i have the panel at the bottom, so never see that :D
[21:27] <Unit193> Switching by hovering makes sense.
[21:27] <bluesabre> ftr, 24px is also the same size as large toolbar which is a primary application element, https://valadoc.org/gtk+-3.0/Gtk.IconSize.LARGE_TOOLBAR.html
[21:27] <bluesabre> Xubuntu has the panel at the top ;)
[21:29] <bluesabre> jphilips: what size is your laptop screen?
[21:29] <jphilips> well if you think the window toolbar needs to be bigger as the panel is larger, we should speak with ochosi to update the theme.
[21:29] <jphilips> 1366x768
[21:29] <bluesabre> I mean, physical size?
[21:30] <bluesabre> All your icon size suggestions seem very large to me (24in, 1080p desktop) and (17in 1080 laptop)
[21:30] <jphilips> not sure, let me check
[21:31] <bluesabre> That's my one real hangup, most of the other changes in that doc seem agreeable.
[21:32] <Unit193> I note the keyboard shortcuts seem to mirror Windows, I don't think I object to the specifc changes but I do not want to become yet another windows clone.
[21:32] <Unit193> C-A-D I'm not the most fond of, but eh.
[21:33] <jphilips> screen is 14"
[21:34] <jphilips> you can see the shortcut research here - https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1CPvYS7Vb00nImb5cru6pwcMHFov0vmdzJV9dTBUOuYg/edit#
[21:34] <jphilips> most of them have already been upstreamed
[21:35] <jphilips> C-A-D is the third shortcut we have for session lock, including Ctrl + Alt + L and Super + L
[21:37] <bluesabre> Yeah, just 14 long years of Xubuntu C-A-D muscle memory there :D
[21:38] <bluesabre> +Xfce
[21:38] <Unit193> Heh, I didn't like it at first even, but got so very used to it.
[21:38] <bluesabre> But yeah, I don't mind the shortcut changes
[21:38] <Unit193> bluesabre: Simon really wanted symbolic links, yeah?
[21:38] <bluesabre> symbolic icons?
[21:38] <Unit193> Err, right.  That.
[21:38] <bluesabre> Definitely. Makes the theme work with light/dark themes/panels with zero work required.
[21:38] <jphilips> well this is your quote bluesabre: "Ctrl + Alt + Delete: I agree that this should probably be replaced with the logout dialog. After having used somebody else's non-Xfce computer recently, it was a shock when this shortcut launched a logout dialog instead of locking. If there's already a standard, it would be best to align."
[21:39] <bluesabre> jphilips: yep, not fighting that one
[21:39] <jphilips> :D
[21:40] <jphilips> is it not possible to have symbolic icons that are larger than 16px
[21:41] <bluesabre> So yeah, everything except icon size/symbolic changes and moving the Setting Manager is +1 from me
[21:41] <pleia2> I'm inclined to agree
[21:42] <jphilips> bluesabre: to clarify, you dont want to change the panel height from 24px
[21:43] <bluesabre> Well, for panel size I've always been in favor of a 28px panel
[21:43] <bluesabre> But that one the team has never agreed on ;)
[21:44] <Unit193> We're somehow going to need to get input from the rest of the team.
[21:44] <pleia2> I always change it anyway based on the size of my screen (which vary widely across my devices)
[21:46] <jphilips> i put out the suggestion previously on the mailing list but only one person responded - https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/xubuntu-devel/2019-July/011825.html
[21:47] <bluesabre> We're a pretty inactive team in general.
[21:47] <pleia2> yeah, sorry :)
[21:47] <pleia2> (and the xubuntu team baby boom certainly hasn't helped matters)
[21:47] <jphilips> i ran a poll and 57% of respondents wanted it to be 28 or higher - https://twitter.com/jphilipz/status/1149373399770312705
[21:48] <bluesabre> I'd probably send a team vote to the ML grouping the proposals how you have them, with one additional grouping that contains the panel and icon sizes.
[21:49] <Unit193> We also all seem to dislike email. :P
[21:49] <bluesabre> Yeah
[21:49] <pleia2> this won't land in 20.04 anyway, so we have a lot of time to decide
[21:50] <bluesabre> Yeah, and there's probably going to be a team reorg for 20.10 (couple inactive members to remove, hopefully a few to add)
[21:50] <bluesabre> council expires, etc
[21:51] <bluesabre> But yeah, I can work with jphilips to draft the team votes
[21:51] <Unit193> bluesabre: You want to send the email?
[21:51] <Unit193> Heh.
[21:51] <bluesabre> ;)
[21:52] <Unit193> #action bluesabre and jphilips to send follow-up email/vote to the list.
[21:52] <meetingology> ACTION: bluesabre and jphilips to send follow-up email/vote to the list.
[21:52] <Unit193> jphilips: The other topic, Addition of new shortcut keys, seems like part of this discussion we just had?
[21:53] <jphilips> yes i added all the keyboard shortcuts suggestions in the same doc for easy access to exactly what was to be changed
[21:53] <jphilips> as things had changed since i first sent the email to the mailing list last year
[21:54] <Unit193> And seems you already filed a bug report with "Resolve problem with Super + D shortcut key" too?
[21:54] <jphilips> bug was filed but not sure how to move it forward as its broken since 19.10
[21:55] <bluesabre> Interestingly, re-setting the Super+D shortcut in the Window Manager settings makes it work
[21:55] <bluesabre> I'll dig into that.
[21:55] <Unit193> OK.
[21:55] <Unit193> #topic Any other business?
[21:56] <Unit193> bluesabre: We do need to get council selection going now I guess.
[21:56] <jphilips> trying to organize a flavors bug hunting session for the beta ISO release
[21:56] <bluesabre> #info Be sure to add bugs we want fixed to https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/xubuntu-f-bugs
[21:56] <bluesabre> Unit193: Indeed... and that sounds like a lot of work :D
[21:57] <Unit193> We've got everything except for newer xfce4-session.
[21:57] <bluesabre> jphilips: thanks for that. Let me know if you need help tracking down flavor heads
[21:57] <Unit193> bluesabre: Yes, and seemingly lack of people interested.
[21:57] <bluesabre> >.>
[21:58] <bluesabre> Gotta grow the team
[21:58] <Unit193> Anything else?
[21:58] <jphilips> bluesabre: i'm in the flavors channel and have touch basis with the kubuntu, lubuntu and budgie people
[21:58] <Unit193> pleia2: Nothing from you?
[21:58] <bluesabre> Unit193: nothing from me
[21:58] <pleia2> nope
[21:58] <bluesabre> jphilips: yeah, that's where we find them... popey and Wimpress are in there too, which helps
[21:58] <Unit193> Well looks like slick is supposed to schedule the next meeting, buut..
[21:59] <bluesabre> Yeahhhh
[21:59] <bluesabre> I'll do it
[21:59] <Unit193> #info bluesabre to schedule next meeting
[21:59] <Unit193> #endmeeting
[21:59] <meetingology> Meeting ended Thu Mar 19 21:59:45 2020 UTC.  
[21:59] <meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/xubuntu-devel/2020/xubuntu-devel.2020-03-19-21.00.moin.txt
[21:59] <pleia2> thanks Unit193 
[21:59] <Unit193> bluesabre, pleia2: Thanks for popping up!
[22:00] <bluesabre> thanks Unit193 pleia2 jphilips 
[22:00] <jphilips> thanks bluesabre Unit193 pleia2 
[22:00] <Unit193> jphilips too of course, but he had stuff on the agenda so had to. ;)
[22:00] <jphilips> hope you all are staying safe
[22:01] <pleia2> we're under shelter-in-place orders here, but that's a better discussion for -offtopic ;)
[22:02] <bluesabre> Time for a break, been at work at home all day
[22:02] <bluesabre> bbl
[22:02] <jphilips> pleia2: are you familiar with setting up an irc to telegram bridge?
[22:02] <pleia2> nope
[22:03] <jphilips> wxl was saying that 'basically you set up a linux shell in the cloud' and pointed me to these links
[22:03] <jphilips> https://picrofo.com/ulinux/
[22:04] <jphilips> https://shells.red-pill.eu/index.php?method=out&cat=Free+Shells
[22:05] <pleia2> those look like for free shell accounts?
[22:05] <pleia2> then I assume you'd actually need to set up the bridge on them
[22:05] <jphilips> when the bridge was setup for libreoffice, it was a script from github
[22:06] <jphilips> something like this https://github.com/42wim/matterbridge
[22:06] <jphilips> and this https://github.com/stevesoltys/telegram-irc
[22:07] <Unit193> Someone set up an Xubuntu telegram group a while ago, but seems it didn't last.
[22:07] <wxl> we used (and are still using, shame on us) teleirc but matterbridge is what i'd recommend
[22:07] <jphilips> having the bridge connect telegram to irc will ensure its longevity
[22:08] <Unit193> I mean, if the last one couldn't last them perhaps one isn't needed.
[22:08] <jphilips> also reducing the barrier to entry
[22:08] <wxl> our contributors increase exponetially with the bridge
[22:09] <jphilips> so did it on libreoffice
[22:15] <bluesabre> hopefully they're patient visitors :) Too many interactions go:
[22:15] <bluesabre> [6:09] name: Hey I need help
[22:15] <bluesabre> [6:10] name: Hello?
[22:15] <bluesabre> [6:11] name: Ugh, bye.
[22:15] <bluesabre> name left
[22:15] <Unit193> I see a *lot* of spam in the Kubuntu one.
[22:16] <wxl> we get an occassional one, but not really
[22:19] <jphilips> one benefit on telegram is that you can still contact the person on telegram after they left
[22:19] <jphilips> on irc, if they close their web irc client, you'd likely never see them again
[22:19] <jphilips> or hexchat
[22:23] <bluesabre> if you're using telegram to communicate, yeah
[22:24] <bluesabre> don't think the same applies for a irc-bridged-telegram client
[22:24] <jphilips> yep
[22:25] <jphilips> those on telegram will be able grow the telegram group
[22:25] <bluesabre> I think knome experimented with a slack bridge once, long ago
[22:25] <bluesabre> oh, I see what you're saying
[22:25] <bluesabre> So a telegram bridge is a channel on telegram, that sees all the same content as the irc users (and vice versa?)
[22:26] <jphilips> and those on telegram and irc wont feel like separate islands just because they are using different platforms
[22:26] <bluesabre> ok, that makes sense
[22:26] <jphilips> telegram users will only be able to see telegram users and irc users will be able to see irc users, but everyone will be see any messages sent on either platforms
[22:27] <bluesabre> sounds good to me
[22:27] <jphilips> thats how i was communicating with the team in kubuntu and lubuntu
[22:28] <jphilips> i was in irc and they were in telegram
[22:28] <jphilips> atleast some of them
[22:37] <jphilips> is any on the xubuntu team on telegram?
[22:46] <Unit193> That's sounding like a nope, I know I don't go trolling groups on telegram at least.
[22:49] <jphilips> if anyone is, they are welcome to join - https://t.me/UbuntuTesters