[10:20] <RikMills> I see darktable 3.0.2-1 in debian
[10:22] <RikMills> wtf? new features in 3.0.2 compared to 3.0.1!
[10:23]  * RikMills hates projects that do that
[14:51] <Eickmeyer> RikMills: Seriously???? They released new features on a POINT RELEASE??? *grumble*
[14:52] <Eickmeyer> Means I'll probably have to add that one to the backports.
[14:57] <RikMills> Eickmeyer: https://github.com/darktable-org/darktable/releases
[14:58] <Eickmeyer> RikMills: Yeah, that should've been a bump to 3.1.0. -_-
[14:59] <RikMills> Some KDE projects have this habit as well. Like they put in lots of bugfixes, and then add a small feature as a 'by the way'
[14:59] <RikMills> which is annoying as hell
[15:01] <RikMills> THEN they complain that we don't have the latest in Ubuntu!
[15:02] <Eickmeyer> I get that too. Lots of projects like to release stuff after freezes and we're like,  ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
[15:04] <OvenWerks> Eickmeyer: https://discourse.ardour.org/t/development-update-6-0-rc1-tagged/103393
[15:04] <OvenWerks> looks like by the end of the month
[15:04] <Eickmeyer> Wow!
[15:04] <OvenWerks>  (which month?)  ;)
[15:04] <Eickmeyer> Haha
[15:05] <Eickmeyer> I think what I'll do is make a PPA of 5.12 for people that want to keep it, but I'm going to see what Debian does with packaging before I jump on 6.0.
[15:06] <OvenWerks> Eickmeyer: there is really no rush
[15:06] <OvenWerks> be nice to have a 6.0 in backports for those who want it _now_
[15:21] <OvenWerks> basically backport 6.0 to 18.04 -> 20.04 then backport 5.12 for 20.10... maybe 21.04
[15:28] <Eickmeyer> I was thinking a separate ppa for backporting Ardour so that we don't break stuff for people using the main Backports PPA before it releases.
[15:29] <OvenWerks> has to release first :)
[15:29] <Eickmeyer> I probably won't worry about 5.12 for 20.10.
[15:30] <Eickmeyer> There's stuff in the backports PPA for 20.04 *now*.
[15:30] <StevenJayCohen> Not a snap?
[15:30] <Eickmeyer> StevenJayCohen: Ardour wouldn't work as a snap.
[15:30] <OvenWerks> snaps do not work for audio stuff
[15:30] <Eickmeyer> Snaps are unable to use plugins.
[15:30] <StevenJayCohen> Right, can't access stuff
[15:31] <Eickmeyer> Funny enough, Flatpaks can.
[15:33] <StevenJayCohen> Wow, and politically that would be a bad move
[15:33] <StevenJayCohen> Unless the snap vs flatpack feud is overblown
[15:34] <Eickmeyer> The feud is overblown. You can install flatpaks in Ubuntu. "sudo apt install flatpak" then "flatpak install ____"
[15:34] <Eickmeyer> You can also install Snaps in Fedora.
[15:34] <StevenJayCohen> It seems like the new vim vs emacs
[15:35] <StevenJayCohen> Right, I have both plugins added to gnome software now
[15:35] <Eickmeyer> I lead both Ubuntu Studio and Fedora Jam. That's no secret.
[15:36] <StevenJayCohen> So how about a flatpack for ardour?
[15:36]  * OvenWerks uses joe as editor
[15:36] <StevenJayCohen> Would that make less work for you?
[15:36] <Eickmeyer> Nope. Most of the packaging is done upstream in Debian, and they're very likely to pick-up Ardour. At that point, it's a sync request.
[15:36] <StevenJayCohen> OvenWerks :) I'm a vim guy
[15:37] <Eickmeyer> I'm a nano/VisualStudioCode guy.
[15:37] <StevenJayCohen> Makes sense
[15:37] <Eickmeyer> Maybe Kate.
[15:37] <OvenWerks> joe for text, mousepad/kate/geany for GUI
[15:38] <StevenJayCohen> Vim and gvim -- I'm boring that way
[15:39] <StevenJayCohen> I'll use any of them in a pinch
[15:39] <OvenWerks> I like a bit more than nano... I have to think to much to use vi... and I never did learn emacs
[15:44] <StevenJayCohen> I had vim drilled into me at a job. So, it's second nature
[15:44] <StevenJayCohen> Things like ciw mean change in word
[15:45] <StevenJayCohen> 27dd delete 27 lines
[15:46] <OvenWerks> I can't think of where I would use that...
[15:46] <StevenJayCohen> Or di" means delete inside the quotes
[15:47] <OvenWerks> it would take more time to count the lines than to start select go down till the end of wht I want to delete end select and delete selection
[15:47] <StevenJayCohen> And ci) or ci} work that way too
[15:48] <OvenWerks> but for code development I use geany.
[15:49] <StevenJayCohen> Honestly, once I realized that gnome3 was also meant to be short cut driven, I finally got the hang of that. So, now it kinda feels vim like
[15:49] <OvenWerks> If I start a call it will give a list of calls that match for auto complete and then when I get to the first ( it shows what params I need
[15:50] <OvenWerks> gnome3 is like having a desktop with no controls... open a terminal to act as the menu
[15:50] <StevenJayCohen> The vim shortcuts are most useful when editing existing code
[15:51] <StevenJayCohen> ci) selects everything inside () deletes it and let me replace it
[15:51] <OvenWerks> every time I try gnome3 I get lost and can't wait to get to a real desktop.
[15:53] <StevenJayCohen> I saw a video where someone explained that it's meant to be search driven. You can do a lot without ever touching the mouse
[15:53] <StevenJayCohen> The fact that it looks like a mobile UI is deceiving
[15:54] <OvenWerks> I always get bad search terms
[15:54] <OvenWerks> they never seem to get me to an app that I want
[15:54] <OvenWerks> unless the search is so wide I have to search through pages of junk to finally find what I want
[15:55] <StevenJayCohen> I do like XFCE. It feels a lot like macOS 8-9.04
[15:56] <StevenJayCohen> Very usable, does not dominate the experience
[15:56] <StevenJayCohen> Let's you get work done
[15:56] <OvenWerks> basically the only improvement (productivity wise) to win95 style desktop is favourites and recently used apps/files
[15:58] <OvenWerks> Add the standard X thing of more than one workspace and I have everything I need
[15:58] <StevenJayCohen> Didn't super key search get added in Vista?
[15:58] <OvenWerks> not useful to me
[15:58] <StevenJayCohen> As an answer to Mac spotlight
[15:58] <OvenWerks> dyslexia doesn't deal well with that
[15:59] <StevenJayCohen> That's where we differ, I prefer search over menus
[15:59]  * OvenWerks does not use the whisker menu in xfce, but rather the appmenu
[15:59] <OvenWerks> I understand
[16:00] <StevenJayCohen> XFCE, materia theme, papirus icons, I'm happy
[16:00] <OvenWerks>  I feel it is completely valid that each person likes something different
[16:00] <OvenWerks> I think we are headed to kde :)
[16:01] <OvenWerks> 20.10-ish
[16:01] <StevenJayCohen> I started on kde using SUSE
[16:01] <StevenJayCohen> Way back
[16:01] <StevenJayCohen> Kde performance is good these days
[16:02] <Eickmeyer> The desktop environment changed from KDE to Plasma in version 4. KDE refers to the community of developers.
[16:02] <StevenJayCohen> And materia has a kde theme, and breeze icons are nice
[16:03] <Eickmeyer> ^ Funny you mentioned Materia for KDE... I've already packaged it. 😂
[16:03] <StevenJayCohen> I was v3, back in the days when Keramik was cool and Konqueror was the file manager and browser
[16:03] <OvenWerks> kde has it's ups and downs. kde was my first move away from fvwm.
[16:04] <StevenJayCohen> Perfect
[16:04] <OvenWerks> I enjoyed it untill plasma made it too slow on my system
[16:05] <OvenWerks> by that time gnome2 was good enough to switch (early gnome would have sent me back to fvwm)
[16:05] <StevenJayCohen> https://www.stevenjaycohen.com/2003/11/01/keramik-pearl/
[16:06] <OvenWerks> then gnome3 came out which would not even run on my system cause it was way too resource intensive... aside from being too obtuse to use anyway... so xfce
[16:07] <OvenWerks> but the newer kde (plasma5... I think?) is better/faster I still use the clasic menu though...
[16:07] <StevenJayCohen> Plasma will be a good match for studio
[16:08] <OvenWerks> but kde does offer 4 ways to access applications including search based
[16:08] <StevenJayCohen> The graphics people will be happy for the change
[16:08] <OvenWerks> yes
[16:10] <OvenWerks> I just mentioned I was thinking of installing studio over kubuntu 20.04 for my daily use and Eickmeyer asked why not just change Studi to kde... so it seems we are going that way
[16:11] <Eickmeyer> Well, in all honesty, it was because eylul[m] mentioned she's using Kubuntu, and I've never been partial to Xfce, so it just seemed as though since the majority of the team is using it, why not go that route?
[16:12] <StevenJayCohen> The audio people will take a bit of convincing. So performance numbers in the announcement would help
[16:13] <OvenWerks> StevenJayCohen: the other thing I do not like about gnome is their forcing theme on window decorations. I use a lot of windows on any screen and so rely on the window title bar being a contrasting colour to indicate focus. gnome steals that from me.
[16:14] <StevenJayCohen> Makes sense, again we work differently. I tend to full screen a single app
[16:14] <StevenJayCohen> I like small laptops 12-13"
[16:14] <OvenWerks> because xfce tends to use the gnome utilities, xfce ends up having a mix of window styles and looks junky
[16:14] <StevenJayCohen> Truth
[16:14] <OvenWerks> kde can force title bars even on gnome app windows
[16:15] <OvenWerks> I have as many as 10 windows on a screen (two displays wide)
[16:15] <StevenJayCohen> And Materia and Breeze would keep it all looking unified
[16:16] <OvenWerks> only 6 on this screen :)
[16:16] <Eickmeyer> I'm actually considering continuing to use Materia and Papirus, but Breeze isn't a bad icon set by any stretch.
[16:16] <StevenJayCohen> How is papirus in kde?
[16:16] <Eickmeyer> Plasma can use any icon set.
[16:17] <OvenWerks> but using Ardour means I normally have three windows just for that... not counting plugin windows
[16:17] <StevenJayCohen> But does it have many plasma specific icons?
[16:17] <Eickmeyer> StevenJayCohen: Not anymore.
[16:18] <Eickmeyer> Hasn't since 5 first released about 5-6 years ago.
[16:18] <StevenJayCohen> The recording machines have a wide monitor with 2 side by side windows, PDF viewer and daw
[16:18] <Eickmeyer> Either way, if it's not in Papirus, it falls back to Breeze.
[16:18] <StevenJayCohen> Nice
[16:19] <Eickmeyer> Multi-screen handling in Plasma is WAY better than Xfce from my experience.
[16:20] <StevenJayCohen> Don't the papirus guys package materia-kde?
[16:20] <Eickmeyer> Yep.
[16:20] <OvenWerks> xfce seems to auto get my screens the right way around, kubuntu I have to switch them.
[16:20] <Eickmeyer> Not package, but developed.
[16:20] <StevenJayCohen> Nice
[16:20] <Eickmeyer> I packaged it. Just waiting for the GG archive to open.
[16:26] <StevenJayCohen> Theme question, what do you think of vimix?
[16:27] <Eickmeyer> Looks like a clown exploded on the title bar.
[16:27] <Eickmeyer> Not necessarily a bad thing if that's what you're into.
[16:28] <OvenWerks> screen shot?
[16:30] <Eickmeyer> OvenWerks: https://github.com/vinceliuice/vimix-gtk-themes
[16:32] <OvenWerks> I don't get it
[16:32] <Eickmeyer> Lotsa color. And a very red accent color.
[16:32] <OvenWerks> What does it offer?
[16:33] <Eickmeyer> Nothing that I can see. Just aesthetics.
[16:33] <OvenWerks> which window has focus?
[16:33] <OvenWerks> how do I tell?
[16:33] <Eickmeyer> OvenWerks: Looks like a slight difference in shade of the dark gray.
[16:33] <OvenWerks> I mean in the screen shot I can assume the top one is... but I often type into a window not on top
[16:34] <OvenWerks> really.
[16:34] <Eickmeyer> If you look at the one with the calculator, looks like the title gets gray. Title is red on the focused one.
[16:34] <Eickmeyer> I can say I'm not a fan.
[16:35] <OvenWerks> but the one above that has four windows with four colours.... which one has focus?
[16:36] <Eickmeyer> Oh, that's just a sample shot with the color variations of the theme.
[16:36] <StevenJayCohen> I like some of what it does to materia, and it's icon theme, like papirus, is derived from paper
[16:36] <OvenWerks> not useful
[16:36] <Eickmeyer> Not an actual screenshot.
[16:37] <Eickmeyer> I think we'll stick with Materia. Fits the overall design aesthetic we have.
[16:39] <Eickmeyer> I also have a good working relationship with the developer of Materia.
[16:41] <StevenJayCohen> It's a great theme. Simple and functional
[16:47] <OvenWerks> cool, application->pulse->jack->pulse->bluetooth speaker
[16:47] <Eickmeyer> A year ago, there was a nasty bug in it which made the title bar in Ubiquity gray on dark gray (unreadable). I notified the developer, and he quickly made a patch to fix it, which I cherry-picked and got uploaded. After that, it got integrated.
[16:47] <Eickmeyer> OvenWerks: You got it to work?
[16:48] <OvenWerks> ja
[16:48] <Eickmeyer> Noice. :D
[16:48] <Eickmeyer> Latency ahoy.
[16:48] <OvenWerks> the secret sauce is: pacmd load-module module-loopback latency_msec=5
[16:48] <Eickmeyer> Are you thinking about integrating that into studio-controls somehow?
[16:48] <Eickmeyer> (I'm working on a new icon for that, btw).
[16:49] <OvenWerks> This means in controls I need to be able to connect pulse out to a pulse-blue
[16:49] <OvenWerks> not just harware
[16:49] <OvenWerks> *hardware
[16:49] <Eickmeyer> That makes sense.
[16:50] <OvenWerks> I guess we can have a pseudo device called bluetooth
[16:53] <OvenWerks> Anyway, I need to be able to also find out the pacmd/pactl command to do the internal pulse connections
[16:59] <Eickmeyer> 👍
[17:01] <OvenWerks> I am guessing I should also include any HW devices we hook up with zita-ajbridge
[17:48] <OvenWerks> It seems the loopback module can have parameters that setup the source and sink directly
[17:56] <OvenWerks> http://i.imgur.com/5Yz5v4D.png
[17:59] <OvenWerks> Eickmeyer: ^^ this is what the connection looks like in jack
[18:09] <OvenWerks> so this should not be a part of the pulse bridging tab. It should be treated as a device in Extra devices.
[18:20] <OvenWerks> current latency: 85.22 ms  :P  Thats bluetooth
[18:28] <OvenWerks> So in extra devices add two checkboxes: Add pulse Bluetooth output and Add pulse Bluetooth input 
[18:31] <Eickmeyer> Agreed.
[18:32]  * OvenWerks wonders how pw deals with this
[18:32] <Eickmeyer> PW doesn't have Pulse or Bluetooth yet, AFAIK.
[18:33] <Eickmeyer> Might have a family thing on Thursday, so I'm prepping the release announcement now.
[18:34] <OvenWerks> cool
[19:27] <OvenWerks> just what every kid needs: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M1B3gATS0GE
[19:38] <Eickmeyer> Ha! I saw that on Reddit.
[19:39] <OvenWerks> did you see her cut down version of the tesla too?
[19:39] <Eickmeyer> Not yet. I will. ERR:KneeDeepInAnnouncement
[19:47] <OvenWerks> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R35gWBtLCYg