[14:24] <Eickmeyer> sakrecoer[m]: StevenJayCohen is the newest member of the team. He's handling some Reddit moderation, but I have more "plans". *evil grin*
[14:29]  * StevenJayCohen glances innocently around the room and gulps loudly
[14:31] <Eickmeyer> StevenJayCohen: :D
[14:32] <StevenJayCohen> Eickmeyer: Using Papirus Dark with Materia-dark-compact and really loving it
[14:33] <StevenJayCohen> (see how I amateurly attempt to change the subject?)
[14:34] <Eickmeyer> StevenJayCohen: It's really beautiful. I chose it because until 19.04 the theme (Numix Blue) and icon set (Elementary, aka whatever Xubuntu uses) was looking really dated. We needed something more modern and aesthetically pleasing for a product that targets creative-types.
[14:34] <Eickmeyer> It just seemed to fit the bill.
[14:35] <StevenJayCohen> Well defined, unified, and not distracting from what I'm working on.
[14:35] <StevenJayCohen> I wrote themes for macOS 10.3-6
[14:35] <Eickmeyer> Exactly. Also, Numix Blue didn't have a dark variant, and Materia is similar but has slightly cooler tones.
[14:36] <StevenJayCohen> macOS had a lot of the same problems around 10.5 too many looks, too many things meaning too many different things
[14:37] <Eickmeyer> macOS was very much in a transition back then. Going from brushed metal (10.3) to the smooth gray (10.4) to a more flat-like look in 10.5 and onward.
[14:39] <StevenJayCohen> This was my "solution" (long before dark themes): https://www.macupdate.com/app/mac/19074/iridium
[14:39] <Eickmeyer> Yeah, for the time, that's not bad.
[14:40] <Eickmeyer> The other thing about Numix Blue is that the team here was directly maintaining the code. I'd rather have offloaded that, so I just chose a theme that was already in the repos. I think Numix Blue will be removed from its source package (ubuntustudio-look) this next release.
[14:40] <StevenJayCohen> It was limited by the goal of the project. I could only implement things if they could be done to Classic, Carbon, and Cocoa apps.
[14:40] <Eickmeyer> Yeah. macOS was definitely a mess back then with classic, carbon, and cocoa intermixed.
[14:41] <StevenJayCohen> So, for the few icons that are unique to Ubuntu Studio, do you commit them as changes to Papirus? or maintain something downstream?
[14:42] <Eickmeyer> Well, the only ones that are really unique anymore are simply the distributor-logo icon (the Ubuntu Studio logo) and the stuff included in ubuntustudio-menu, which only works with actual menus (not GNOME).
[14:43] <Eickmeyer> Someone else made an ubuntustudio-controls icon in Papirus, which is really just a gray version of the white-on-black Ubuntu Studio logo.
[14:43] <StevenJayCohen> They don't work in gnome's app search?
[14:44] <Eickmeyer> The ubuntustudio-menu's purpose is to organzie the various applications into custom menus consisting of Audio Production, Graphics Design, and Video Production with submenus, all using freedesktop.org's X Desktop Guidelines (XDG).
[14:45] <Eickmeyer> It does also add a "help" menu with some links to the chat room and askubuntu.com among other things.
[14:46] <StevenJayCohen> I wish it would be allowed to make gnome app folders. It just makes sense -- based upon the goal of the Flavor
[14:47] <Eickmeyer> I could look into that, but I'll admit it's not a priority. It might be doable.
[14:48] <StevenJayCohen> By default, there is a Utulities Folder in Gnome. An Audio, Graphics, Video, etc folder if one uses Ubuntu Studio Installer, just makes sense.
[14:48] <Eickmeyer> Yep, I agree. Could probably be added to ubuntustudio-menu if I could figure out how to do that.
[15:04] <StevenJayCohen> Eickmeyer:  I think I just found out how to do it: https://askubuntu.com/questions/1091972/how-do-i-create-app-folders-in-the-gnome-application-menu#answer-1099604
[15:04] <sakrecoer[m]> Good to know the team is growing! @eickmeyer:matrix.org @stevenjaycohen:matrix.org :)
[15:04] <StevenJayCohen> He's adding an entry AV
[15:06] <Eickmeyer> StevenJayCohen: Ah. Well, that might do it, just means a gsettings-override file then. Might be able to get that in for 20.10.
[15:06] <Eickmeyer> Maybe even backport it.
[15:08] <StevenJayCohen> Gnome has been growing on me. I do everything by search, not menu. The studio recording machines are still on UStudio XFCE but my laptop is straight Ubuntu with UStudio added.
[15:10] <Eickmeyer> Yep! Myself, OvenWerks, and eylul[m] have been using Kubuntu with Studio added. I'm glad that workflow is working for you as it will help to figure out how we can support the GNOME desktop better.
[15:13] <StevenJayCohen> I don't mind being the Gnome guy on this. It's just odd since I started on SuSE/KDE back in the early 2000s: https://www.stevenjaycohen.com/2003/11/01/keramik-pearl/
[15:13] <Eickmeyer> Heh, KDE (Plasma now) has come a LOOOOONG way.
[15:13] <StevenJayCohen> SuSE to Fedora to Ubuntu (Feisty Fawn)
[15:13] <StevenJayCohen> Plasma is fantastic
[15:14] <Eickmeyer> In my case, Slackware in 1996 to Ubuntu 8.10 (Intrepid Ibex) to a bunch of distrohopping to simultaneously Ubuntu/Fedora.
[15:15] <StevenJayCohen> Before SuSE, I got to use an OpenStep machine at NYU. So, oddly, OSX before it was OSX was my first real unix.
[15:16] <StevenJayCohen> They let us Set/Lighting/Sound Design people use machines that the Architecture Students mostly used.
[15:18] <StevenJayCohen> Always admire the Slackware users! I showed my son Slackware (he's at UMass in CS). He was overwhelmed and went back to Mint.
[15:18] <StevenJayCohen> He's planning on leaving Mint for Arch Linux.
[15:19] <Eickmeyer> Yep, did Arch. My only problem with Arch is that if you don't keep on top of it with the updates, it can break while updating later.
[15:21] <StevenJayCohen> Which is why he's still on Mint (I think). Lots of social pressure in his peer group at UMass not to use Ubuntu. I'm trying to learn more about that. At first I thought it was because there is a lot of RedHat in the greater Boston area, but he tells me that's not it.
[15:26] <Eickmeyer> Probably because of the FSF in the Boston area. Richard Stallman has been known to call Ubuntu "Spyware" based on the amazon search being in Unity. That, along with the Amazon affiliate link, have since been removed, so that argument is now completely unfounded.
[15:40] <OvenWerks> me still likes the motif window decorations 
[15:42] <OvenWerks> https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/proxy/uoN7cT6HW4iPEmq2e2DxoBWPMAm1qUlrD57HjKSw7d8afST8rvaJCYHVXDqP6l9DRf8IxXXqqZ2E6hFfHzVueyObNisvaLDB3zK-
[15:42] <OvenWerks> gee thats a long url...
[15:42] <OvenWerks> heres a shorter one: http://www.opengroup.org/graphics/desktop/m-dnd.gif
[15:44] <OvenWerks> I wouldn't use those colours, but I like the window handles being clearly visible and the window decorations automatically draw the eye to the window with focus
[16:00] <OvenWerks> Studio should have a "Retro" theme  :)
[16:49]  * StevenJayCohen uploaded an image: image.png (263KB) < https://matrix.org/_matrix/media/r0/download/matrix.org/YSRGGvItoDbrrXWyEgcyxoTD >
[16:49] <StevenJayCohen> So, Motif in Black and Grey maybe? Why not something like this 😛 
[16:52] <StevenJayCohen> I don't think it gets more retro than that
[17:42] <OvenWerks> actually retro would be steel blue window decorations for unfocused windows and faded red for focused windows
[18:04] <OvenWerks> here is a comercial example: http://www.xwinman.org/screenshots/dtwm.gif
[18:08] <OvenWerks> StevenJayCohen: the main thing is this from when desktops were designed bsed on workflow for business use rather than a "beautiful desktop" that is only good for browsing or other full screen apps. There are good points for having both beauty and good workflow... but gnome session to me defeats both. The big one being it is painful to use and it lacks the configurability to suit a denser use 
[18:09] <OvenWerks> workflow. It has the standard gnome "our way is the only way" attitude.
[18:10] <OvenWerks> (did they get it from microsoft?)
[18:10] <StevenJayCohen> The unfocusing of other windows in that image is a cool idea, just blurring the whole thing out
[18:11] <OvenWerks> yes for someone who might have 10 or more windows across two screens at any one time, there is really no other option
[18:12] <OvenWerks> The standard (for X) focus follows mouse that all DEs seem to want to trun off these days, is much better for work flow too. It allows easy typing in a window without bringing it to the top and covering whatever I was looking at while typing.
[18:43] <StevenJayCohen> Sometimes, limited resources lead to truly interesting ideas like this. Well, with Moore's Law broken, we might start to see innovation like this again in the next few years.
[18:51] <Eickmeyer> Another RC is ready for testing.
[18:52] <Eickmeyer> Yesterday's was fine, but I know the release team has been working on a huge bug with subiquity (the server Ubiquity).
[18:54] <StevenJayCohen> checking the RC now...
[19:17] <Eickmeyer> I've just been informed that new spins are coming, hopefully these will be the last ones.
[19:19] <StevenJayCohen> caught me in time, I'll wait. Where's the bug I am looking for?
[19:19] <Eickmeyer> StevenJayCohen: The bug in question doesn't affect us.
[19:20] <StevenJayCohen> oh
[19:21] <Eickmeyer> It affected the Ubuntu Server images.
[19:36] <StevenJayCohen> ah
 i missed a bug that affects Server?
 o.O
[19:41] <housecat> -release has been talking about a subiquity bug all morning, so i guess so :P
[19:59] <Eickmeyer> Gdflk7sj
[19:59] <Eickmeyer> dsfsdf
[19:59] <Eickmeyer> Ugh... sorry about the dog.
[20:27] <Eickmeyer> Ok, we have a new RC (hopefully the one and only): 20200422
[21:41] <OvenWerks> is there a difference in the checksum from the last one?
[21:41] <Eickmeyer> Yes.
[21:42] <OvenWerks> K
[21:43] <OvenWerks> oh yeah 4.6% diff
[21:43] <OvenWerks> kubuntu has bigger diff... but maybe that is just smaller ISO size
[21:44] <Eickmeyer> RikMills knows more about that.
[21:44] <Eickmeyer> Our diff is likely some Ubiquity, mesa, and kernel stuff.
[21:45] <RikMills> I would say much the same
[21:46] <OvenWerks> well if our iso is double the size and their diff is almost double too...
[21:46] <RikMills> there ya go then
[21:46] <Eickmeyer> Yeah, then it makes sense. Smaller amounts = bigger percentages.
[21:47] <RikMills> I had 8.8% diff
[21:47] <OvenWerks> yeah about that
[22:04] <OvenWerks> WOW there is even a CDE / Motif theme for KDE
[22:04] <OvenWerks> actually it says gtk3
[22:05] <OvenWerks>  at the kde store
[22:05] <Eickmeyer> There might be a Qt theme too.
[22:05] <OvenWerks> 'An elegant desktop, from a more... civilzed age.' it says
[22:05] <Eickmeyer> Hehe
[23:44] <OvenWerks> how come we have cds set to auto mount? very anoying when trying to install and totem (or something popsup out of no where and starts playing the cd... would be even more anoying in a studio I think.
[23:45] <OvenWerks> recomend nothing to automount or at least nothing to _do_ something with that mount
[23:48] <OvenWerks> The theme while looking ok has no diserable differensiation between focus and not
[23:49] <OvenWerks> there is just almost a slight difference in text brightness.
[23:50] <OvenWerks> slide show is up to date this time :)
[23:55] <Eickmeyer> OvenWerks: I was thinking of you when updating the slideshow.
[23:55] <Eickmeyer> Oh, and... bad news. New spins heading our way. >.<
[23:55] <OvenWerks> oh well... just about installed
[23:56] <Eickmeyer> New one won't need a smoke test per Wimpress.
[23:57] <OvenWerks> can confirm that partial install is _fixed_ (like a cat?)
[23:57] <Eickmeyer> Heh
[23:57] <Eickmeyer> So, the CD automount thing I think is something we inherit from Xfce.
[23:58] <OvenWerks> yeah, it is one of those things that has no place in a studio...
[23:58] <Eickmeyer> Plasma doesn't automount by default. It lets you know something is there, but doesn't mount.
[23:59] <OvenWerks> but might be expected for the rest of our workflows (shrugs)
[23:59] <Eickmeyer> Yeah. We can't be too audio-centric here.
[23:59] <Eickmeyer> Er, shouldn't be too audio-centric.
[23:59] <OvenWerks> it is something that shold be at least shut of on the live ISO even if it is alive on the install.