[01:28] <Scary_Guy> I saw the 0 downtime server on HN, was a good read.  I liked the comment about the frozen server with a stuck fan that the guy greased with mayo from his sandwich he got along the way to fix it.
[01:29] <Scary_Guy> Also this is the part where I complain about not using old.reddit.com for the link.  I do have a plugin to redirect such links though so not a huge deal.
[02:58] <jrwren> lul
[14:54] <rick_h> jrwren:  that post misses the delaying of updates, the fact that we had broken apt updates to grub for a day last week that rendered systems unbootable, anyway, pick your poison. It all breaks eventually heh
[14:55] <cmaloney> I thought that how Canonical handled the grub2 breakage was quite good
[14:55] <cmaloney> I'm also grateful that I wasn't bit by it
[14:55] <jrwren> which post?
[14:56] <rick_h> sorry, the snap refresh one
[14:56]  * rick_h doesn't look at irc as much as he should since work moved to mattermost
[14:56] <jrwren> from weeks ago?
[14:56] <rick_h> oh, was it weeks? It's like 10 lines up in the history lol
[14:56] <jrwren> oh, July 31, so just 1 week
[14:56] <rick_h> it says -- Wed, 05 Aug 2020 (Fri, 31 Jul 2020) --
[14:57] <rick_h> so guess I thought it was yesterday but maybe it was before that
[14:57] <jrwren> It was Friday.
[14:57] <rick_h> weechat date confusion fail
[14:57] <jrwren> :)
[14:58] <jrwren> It would be cool if there was an update setting that ignored security issues of local priv escalation.
[14:58] <cmaloney> Mattermost fail. :)
[14:58] <jrwren> if it ain't broke, don't fix it. I dno't need any updates except remote compromise.
[14:58] <jrwren> but... *shrug*
[14:58] <jrwren> use of containers basically mitigates all of this.
[14:58] <cmaloney> I think the main reason I'm not a fan of snaps is it's a developer deciding what's important to me
[14:58] <jrwren> the issue gets pushed to whatever runs the OS that runs the containers :)
[14:58] <rick_h> ? that's basically what snaps are
[14:58] <cmaloney> rather than me deciding what is important to me
[14:59] <jrwren> WAT?
[14:59] <rick_h> snaps are basically containers with isolation of the workload, libs, etc. I guess if we're not talking about --classic (e.g. dangerous) snaps
[14:59] <jrwren> cmaloney: I mean... the devs who push to a PPA are deciding what is important to you too.
[14:59] <rick_h> right, there's always someone else in control
[14:59] <cmaloney> jrwren: True, but I can also pin a version if I want
[15:00] <cmaloney> I get final say on this
[15:00] <jrwren> cmaloney: you can also build yourself if you want to, and checkout the source and build previous versoins... can't do that with snap
[15:00] <cmaloney> You're making my point for me. :)
[15:00] <rick_h> bah, can't find popey's post
[15:00] <rick_h> why can't you build your own snap and sideload?
[15:00] <jrwren> cmaloney: your are welcome
[15:01] <cmaloney> how do I build Chrome?
[15:01] <cmaloney> or Scribus?
[15:01] <cmaloney> (Scribus is a bad example)
[15:01] <cmaloney> Skype?
[15:01] <jrwren> oh, snap has a lot of the technical ability, but in practice with teh way teh store is setup... the answer is far too often "can't"
[15:02] <jrwren> or the trade-off isn't worth it
[15:02] <cmaloney> I'm sure there's a version of tootstream out there when Canonical had the big push to snap all the things
[15:02] <cmaloney> and it hasn't been maintained in two years
[15:02] <cmaloney> but it'll be offered to someone at some point
[15:04] <jrwren> if it works for some people and increases their productivity, then good.
[15:04] <jrwren> I only know it is not for me.
[15:04] <jrwren> It is kinda like cocaine or amphetemines.
[15:06] <jrwren> is sideloaded snaps how all the openstack snaps are being used?
[15:06] <jrwren> or is juju openstack not snap by default yet?
[15:07] <jrwren> or juju k8s?
[15:07] <cmaloney> I mean, I think snaps are a good idea, but the implementation rubs me the wrong way
[15:07] <jrwren> well, which part is a good idea?
[15:07] <jrwren> I'm not convinced, because IMO they do nothing that couldn't also be done with debs.
[15:07] <cmaloney> containerized runtime for certain applications
[15:07] <cmaloney> and yes
[15:08] <cmaloney> I'm happier with PPAs than snaps by a country mile
[15:08] <jrwren> oh... are snaps actually run in namespaces now? because "container" could mean just a chroot, like snap, or it could be namespaced
[15:08] <cmaloney> I thought snaps were akin to LXC with privileges
[15:08] <cmaloney> but me being confused is more likely
[15:09] <jrwren> with systemd's support for containers, its almost trivial to containerize an app in one way or nother.
[15:09] <jrwren> i've not followed snaps for a few yrs. maybe they are now. but previously i dno't think they were namespaced, just chrooted
[15:09] <cmaloney> honestly appimage also seems like the way to go for hoary applications
[15:09] <cmaloney> kinda like Apple's applications
[15:10] <jrwren> yup.
[15:10] <jrwren> debs already had/has that in a large part with chrome deb as an example
[15:10] <jrwren> its own TLS, its own SQLite
[15:10] <jrwren> complete exception to the Debian philosophy, and that is OK IMO.
[15:11] <jrwren> you have to draw the line on what is your platform.
[15:11] <jrwren> for me, for many years that line has been linux+glibc, anything outside of that I've always considered part of my app, I have to be VERY aware of those dependencies.
[15:11] <jrwren> the mixing of those deps is always what a distro has solved.
[15:12] <jrwren> we are learning or have learned varying ways to solve it, but haven't gone the full macos - ship your own - the platform deps are much smaller, just yet.
[15:12] <cmaloney> I've not looked at Chrome's .deb, so that is interesting
[15:12] <jrwren> oh yeah, take a look.
[15:12] <jrwren> their own.... LOTS of things.
[15:12] <cmaloney> Makes sense
[15:12] <jrwren> many of the libs statically linked, separate from the system shipped versions of the same thing.
[15:15] <jrwren> This is a large part of why I dislike snap so much. It is based on a lie that it is too difficult to package this and that, and other debs are the example. It is too difficult if you go full debian-standard no duplicate libraries, but if you ignore that and ship your own dep libs, it is far less difficult.
[15:16] <cmaloney> it feels like an end-run around Docker
[15:16] <cmaloney> without any of the "advantages" of Docker
[15:17] <cmaloney> Honestly I'm taking the "wait until it passes" approach
[15:17] <jrwren> same. no reason to adopt unless there are clear benefits.
[15:17] <cmaloney> I think LXC is brilliant. Snaps? Less so.
[15:17] <jrwren> lxc was brilliant until it became snap only. :p
[15:17] <cmaloney> eh?
[15:17] <jrwren> the best version of docker is podman.
[15:17] <jrwren> :)
[15:18] <cmaloney> Oh, right. I'm still living in the past so lxc is not snaps for me. :)
[15:18] <jrwren> apt  install lxc just installs the snap.
[15:18] <cmaloney> Yeah, screw that
[15:18] <cmaloney> I'll go with Vagrant then
[15:18] <cmaloney> for me LXC occupies the same space as Vagrant
[15:19] <cmaloney> and if LXC becomes less fun to use then Vagrant then LXC loses.
[15:20] <jrwren> ugh, so heavy weight.
[15:20] <jrwren> what is that hashi deploy tool. I hear they target some varying container solutions now.
[15:22] <cmaloney> not sure
[15:23] <cmaloney> and yeah, VirtualBox is a bit heavy. That's why I ported one of my processes to lxc
[18:08] <jrwren> i need vim help! how to replace characters in a subs?
[18:08] <jrwren> s/ ../prefix\1suffix/  what should \1 be there?
[18:11] <cmaloney> what are you looking to do?
[18:17] <jrwren> bah, I guess I can do it with multiple s/ commands.
[18:18] <jrwren> i wanted to take teh `2d 2d 2d 00 0a` style output from hexdump and... why didn't i just use sed???
[18:19] <jrwren> hrm... i'm not sure how to do it with sed either. lol.
[18:19] <jrwren> doesn't matter, I used vim and a few s/ commands.
[18:20] <jrwren> oh... i wanted to take `2d 2d 2d 00 0a` style output from hexdump and turn it into a Go byte literal, so add 0x prefix and , suffix. => `0x2d, 0x2d, 0x2d, 0x00, 0x0a`
[18:50] <cmaloney> Ah, neat
[18:50] <cmaloney> yeah, I'm not sure how to do that without programming something
[18:57] <jrwren> your reply now 30min later made me try again...
[18:57] <jrwren> i didn't escape the () to create a backref, cuz vim.
[18:58] <jrwren> :s/ \(..\)/0x\1,/g  works
[19:20] <cmaloney> <3