=== JanC_ is now known as JanC [02:49] @CW [funny, now I am asking here, the "forgetting the wifi-pw with each reboot" is g …], Usually NVRAM wiped and " custom wifi and wifi " need to be replaced and permissions too [03:12] Jose Canales was added by: Jose Canales [03:18] Hrudesh was added by: Hrudesh [04:10] @Stereofont [With the Teleports inbuilt recorder or a file generated by Recorder app?], Built-in recorder. [04:12] Fwd from mrmechanic3000: Btw don't you think, porting is okay but UBports should actually approach a phone company or something with proposal to make an UT phone [04:12] Fwd from mrmechanic3000: Like in India, these days there is a lot of buzz about Atmanirbhar Bharat i.e. self dependance and all... So we can create a twitter campaign trending to reach out indian companies asking them to make UT phone or 2. And something with Snapdragon 7xx series processor and 4+ GBs of Ram with full convergence c [04:12] apabilities of UT will be a game changer.... [04:18] Also there have been really great hardwares launched in last 1-2 years e.g. Lenovo's Zuk Z2 and Mi's Pocophone F1, which have great hardware but lack software support. Combined with UT with full convergence capabilities, they will be beast and may even serve as day to day general purpose pc. So can we not push these companies to he [04:18] lp us out with their vendor side blobs to unleash full capabilities of their hardware on UT now that they have stopped support for android on these... Their help will be required only once. [06:36] @mrmechanic3000 [Like in India, these days there is a lot of buzz about Atmanirbhar Bharat i.e. s …], > Regular people will never use it as soon as they find out that their fav social apps are not available [06:37] Android apps are installable on UT in anbox [06:37] With limitations [06:37] @mrmechanic3000 [Android apps are installable on UT in anbox], Yes. Do you think regular people can actually manage to install anbox? [06:38] You don't have hardware access [06:38] I doubt they would modify their official device [06:38] @ItsMeShouko [Yes. Do you think regular people can actually manage to install anbox?], We can pre-install it... Although as @mimecar says there are limitations... So yeah , will be a hard time adapting it... [06:39] @mrmechanic3000 [We can pre-install it... Although as @mimecar says there are limitations... So y …], The company that will release anbox on their UT phone will be under constant fire for shipping experimental android app support [06:39] Also no google play services [06:40] Right [06:40] Can we do nothing? Will UT always be an alternative OS and not a mainstream one [06:40] And you must reinstall anbox on every ota [06:41] [Edit] And you must reinstall anbox on ota updates [06:41] @mrmechanic3000 [Can we do nothing? Will UT always be an alternative OS and not a mainstream one], I am afraid that’s true until you can convince big players somehow to port their apps to ubports [06:41] The biggest hurdle being whatsapp or anything that users use daily [06:42] We are 3k+ members here let's trend #WhatsappforUbuntuTouch on twitter... Let's try atleast reaching them out as community....and see if they react and come forward to help us out [06:43] I mean we can try [06:43] With Facebook? [06:43] I really want to see UT taking off soon. [06:43] @mrmechanic3000 [Can we do nothing? Will UT always be an alternative OS and not a mainstream one], it will be an alternative OS for sure [06:43] There are not users for a native app [06:44] I don’t even think there are more than 4-5 proper native apps on ubports [06:44] Canonical tried to make it mainstream and failed commercially, current project is more for those who care about it from those who care [06:45] @ItsMeShouko [I don’t even think there are more than 4-5 proper native apps on ubports], I mean 3rd party ofc [06:45] @ItsMeShouko [I don’t even think there are more than 4-5 proper native apps on ubports], But that doesn't means there can't be. We can reach out people at flutter dev to add support for compiling to UT compatible apps too. Also we can get big players to join hands and help us too... We can atleast try I mean [06:46] @mrmechanic3000 [But that doesn't means there can't be. We can reach out people at flutter dev to …], Are you a power user? [06:46] Nope [06:46] I see, anyway I found something that can let us run flutter apps [06:47] https://blog.basyskom.com/2020/how-to-run-flutter-on-an-embedded-device/ [06:47] @ItsMeShouko use Canonical's desktop platform with Wayland instead [06:48] @NotKit [@ItsMeShouko use Canonical's desktop platform with Wayland instead], You mean, for starting to make new apps or what? [06:48] I mean they worked to port Flutter to Linux [06:48] it should be easier to make that work on UT than to write yet another embedder [06:49] @ItsMeShouko [https://blog.basyskom.com/2020/how-to-run-flutter-on-an-embedded-device/], Great [06:49] I see [06:50] Btw we still have a chance if you think carefully [06:51] If Fuschia is going to replace android at some point and it uses flutter for apps... [06:51] We can get flutter to work on ut and get future flutter apps on ut [06:52] Expect big players to invest in flutter... [06:52] @ItsMeShouko [If Fuschia is going to replace android at some point and it uses flutter for app …], Inb4 proprietary [06:52] (Sticker, 264x512) https://irc.ubports.com/j2PZv0E0.webp [06:52] @Uchihaitachii [Inb4 proprietary], Inb4? [06:53] @ItsMeShouko [Inb4?], Nvm [06:55] https://twitter.com/rnbokade/status/1300325880883867648?s=19 [06:56] @mrmechanic3000 [https://twitter.com/rnbokade/status/1300325880883867648?s=19], Can you retweet or tweet with that hashtag so that we maybe as a community try to drag some attention towards the platform atleast [06:57] There are not users on Ubuntu touch [06:57] And the app should be confined [06:58] Otherwise, they can get your data [07:12] Ok i was able to reproduce the issue.... After system update my device has a new MAC and in consequence the wifi password for a givin ssid is lost. How do get this persistance thing working?? [07:14] I love this project guys how can I get involved [07:16] hi! Thanks very much and welcome. [07:17] @lerumolaSechaba [I love this project guys how can I get involved], it depends how you want to help. Start by going to ubports.com and follow the 'Contribute' link [07:19] there are a lot of different area's as you will see. Just find which ever suits you most. The i would start by joining the relevant channels listed at the bottom of each of the subjects [07:20] If you'rs not sure, just ask here. That will work too 😀 [07:21] [Edit] there are a lot of different area's as you will see. Just find which ever suits you most. Then i would start by joining the relevant channels listed at the bottom of each of the subjects [07:27] Thanks will check out the different options [07:29] gd luck! [07:32] @CW [Ok i was able to reproduce the issue.... After system update my device has a new …], Sounds like you wiped a crucial partition and your phone is bricked? [07:43] no, my phone works fine, apart from the fact that it looses the wifi-passwords due to in-persistant WIFI-MAC [07:43] non-persistant should be better english, sorry [08:46] Which device? [08:52] @mrmechanic3000 [We can pre-install it... Although as @mimecar says there are limitations... So y …], What the foundation need is someone to take care in improving anbox. If people really cared from the beginning but it doesn't look like [08:59] respectfully but thoroughly disagree :) [09:00] this should not be a mission of the Foundation at least [09:05] @malditobastardo [What the foundation need is someone to take care in improving anbox. If people r …], We are also advertising that it can be paid now [09:05] So if money does not help, what does [09:05] 😆 [09:09] spend the money more wiseley 😏 [09:12] @Stereofont [Which device?], nexus 5 [10:53] @dohbee [perhaps your phone is missing the persist thing, and is generating a new wifi MA …], Can you explain more on this? [11:08] @Flohack [We are also advertising that it can be paid now], Yeah. That's my point. [11:09] @matv1 [this should not be a mission of the Foundation at least], I don't agree but I can understand. But if no one is up for the job then there isn't much to do [11:09] @matv1 [spend the money more wiseley 😏], Well its agreed with Volla that we try to push hard for Anbox, as its part of their business plan. But so far, no matter what we try, no sane guy seems to be willing to jump onboard that ship ^^ [11:10] @matv1 [this should not be a mission of the Foundation at least], Well yes it should be a mission to drive all possible usecases for UT, even if it includes to have still Anroid apps onboard for people who cannot be without them. Everything what increases our userbase is good for the community and therefore for the foundation [11:12] @Flohack [Well its agreed with Volla that we try to push hard for Anbox, as its part of th …], would work for Anbox on othet distros help with UT? [11:12] For anbox we just need easy install as a post-install 'app' and boom. Done (in my opinion) like Fdroid kind of thing [11:14] Just needs to be a) not shipped with device to protect manufacturers against google legal team and b) easy [11:14] @Javacookies [would work for Anbox on othet distros help with UT?], Only partially. We want to have real hardware virtualized into the Anbox container, thats waht other distros just ignore (except network) [11:14] @wayneoutthere [For anbox we just need easy install as a post-install 'app' and boom. Done (in m …], Well not quite, installation is the last step of many ^^ [11:15] Do we have a forum thread mapping all this out? [11:16] 'moving forward with Anbox' kind of big picture thread showing tech requirements, legal issues, dev needs, etc ? [11:16] @wayneoutthere [Do we have a forum thread mapping all this out?], No, i dont think it makes sense. Its soo specific that this thread would get swamped mit "WhatsApp when" questions and stuff. We have a Telegram group for Anbox devs but so far not many qualified ^^ [11:16] 'we just need', 'What the foundation need is someone'. These kind of presenation of how 'little' the problems of anbox are, are simply misleading. We dont just need that and it isnt easy either, and it isnt a someone, but many ppl we need for that. [11:17] See above my comment which should clarify what I meant [11:17] For sure it.requires ppl and $$ [11:17] Its probably a few man-years of investment until its stable and fast and comofrtable. ALl 3 of those are not here now [11:17] But how many? And how much? [11:18] The most urgent work was estimated to be 6 man-months [11:18] I have seen no functional or technical design for solving problems like: [11:18] lifecycle management [11:18] power consumption [11:18] push notification [11:19] @matv1 [I have seen no functional or technical design for solving problems like:], Well as nobody works on it there is no forthcoming of course [11:19] Push wont work ever I would say [11:19] I see. But I was thinking putting clear thread together to communicate: this is what is required, this is how many hours it would take, etc etc, so we can just point people to that thread including investors who want it done [11:19] data integration through trusted helper [11:19] etc ect [11:20] @wayneoutthere [I see. But I was thinking putting clear thread together to communicate: this is …], We have investors, we have the money. We dont have people who a) understand precisely what we want b) have a lot of Android AND Linux skills. You are either an Android dev or a Linux general dev [11:20] Its the duopoly that makes problems [11:20] to do this well will require not only LOTS of manpower, but also hacking solutions into the system that is already way too complex to maintain with current resources [11:20] Oh. Well then. Back to my coffee. Carry on! Lol [11:20] @matv1 [to do this well will require not only LOTS of manpower, but also hacking solutio …], I got that you dont want Anbox, but as we said the foundation sees this differently. [11:21] btw shouldn't the livestream be unpinned? [11:21] @hacker12455 [btw shouldn't the livestream be unpinned?], yes thx [11:21] np [11:22] @Flohack [I got that you dont want Anbox, but as we said the foundation sees this differen …], ah outlining differing points of view are not helpfull ? [11:23] @matv1 [ah outlining differing points of view are not helpfull ?], It is helpful, but you sound like suggesting its an impossible project or one that harms the other parts of Ubuntu Touch, and I am just saying we see this differently [11:24] We need to try to get options for people with banking apps (SafetyNet will be a nightmare) and WhatsApp requirements. It will not be for playing games. Its for essential, business critical apps that block people that otherwise would swap to UT [11:24] If we find out for example that banking apps will never work, we note that down and be done with it. But we need to try [11:25] every one has this ONE essential app that he really needs from android :) [11:25] exactly ^^ [11:25] like .. i dunno.. Slack 😏 [11:26] Slack works nice in Anbox basically but its super laggy and heats up the device. So for me its unusable ATM and I would like to see that change. I need it maybe 2 times per week but then it would be really nice. [11:26] Question then is if anbox will run those comfortably [11:28] @rogieroudshoorn [Question then is if anbox will run those comfortably], Currently it does not, for many. THats why we are seeking improvement. One of them is e.g. update it to a newer Android version. I think its 5 or so inside Anbox [11:28] ... and if it's a better route then electron/flutter support for the slack-a-likes [11:31] WizzyMt was added by: WizzyMt [11:32] don't get me wrong - if banking apps will work in anbox, that'll definately help [11:40] My worry is this: I have just listed a bunch of core design problems. (btw your Slack issue points to those as well). I am saying that solving those issues for Anbox WILL mean making UT even more complex then it is now. That is the other side of the coin. I am of the opinion that this cost is not worth it, given our current resources. And i [11:40] t is also my opnion that this downside has never been very well outlined to the community [11:41] because there is one last point to all this: … Even IF we manage to solve all those problems I mentioned, it might all be for nothing because It is not unlikely that Android in the future, will putting some more effort into detecting it being run in a container. In fact this is already happening. Some apps -like some banking apps you sugges [11:41] t would run on Anbox- are this day already detecting that and you will not be able to run that app in Anbox. … In essence: the more succesfull we are at making Anbox work, the more likely it is that Google could simply put a stop to it and all those precious resources will have been for nothing [11:42] @matv1 [because there is one last point to all this: … Even IF we manage to solve all thos …], Yeah but at least we tried. And yes, no resources can be spared atm for this, thats why we are seeking new ones. If nobody applies for that job it wont happen, thats true [11:45] it's fairly easy to determine what can or can not run - try a desktop Android emulator [11:45] bankings apps should work if they do not depend on SafetyNet (some do) [11:45] [Edit] bankings apps should work if they do not depend on SafetyNet (some do, but not all) [11:46] [Edit] it's fairly easy to determine what can or can not run in principle - try a desktop Android emulator [11:46] There are over 3000 ppl in this group alone. must be between 5 and 10 k users of UT over all. Not a lot still. but i WISH people would start by doing the easy thing: If you need an app that is currently not supported on UT, please write an email to that dev/company to ask them. How many of us have actually done that? [11:49] realistically I think no company would rewrite their app for a platform of 10k people just because of few emails... [11:49] Well, a company definitely won't if they get 0 emails because then they don't know people want it [11:50] @Lorxu [Well, a company definitely won't if they get 0 emails because then they don't kn …], right :) [11:50] thanks [11:50] @matv1 [There are over 3000 ppl in this group alone. must be between 5 and 10 k users of …], Unless we are a million thos emails will go just into the round bin [11:54] Well people, you heard it from our community leadership. No point in doing that then.. [11:55] (Sorry to sound harsh Florian, but what you just said made me really dissapointed) [12:07] @matv1 [(Sorry to sound harsh Florian, but what you just said made me really dissapointe …], You can do it, but I doubt you will succeed with that. I am not able to convince Signal to help us in any way, after dumb questions they just ignore us now. I have been there, its frustrating [12:08] Just an example [12:08] So if smaller projects dont even respond to questions and suggestions, why Facebook, Google and Microsoft would do it? [12:09] You should not forget their Apps wont give them any benefits on our platform, since they cannot harvest data and call home. A lot of benefit for Facebook is gone then. Why should they invest a single day into this, when it harms their business model. Just another random example [12:10] To convince someone you need good arguments, and we have none. An app in UT gives only substantial benefit to a company if it were ofr a paid service, like Spotify for example. They would still get revenue from that paying ussers [12:11] But "free" Apps - whats the big story you gonna tell them [12:14] I know they are big and we are small. Dont worry:) But big changes start with one person. And then another. But if that is your arguments, then everything about UT can be put in the that same bin along with those emails. And we only need to wait until we are millions :) … So I am not sure what you are saying with that argument [12:15] But there is yet another argument still: … Why would an app developer who has an android version of his app already made, be expected to put any effort into porting that app to Ubuntu Touch when at the same time, the UT foundation is suggesting their android version would run on UT in the future anyway [12:15] We are actually undermining interest in our own ecosystem [12:15] with Anbox [12:17] and again: all those arguments have never been addressed and a cost/benefit analyses been presented. Thats where my pain is [12:17] @matv1 [But there is yet another argument still: … Why would an app developer who has an …], I dont think so. Anbox will have limitations, apps will be slower, hw acceleration, sound, camera, sensors will al have some kinda limitations. The motivation is to make the app work correctly. And I personally do not think a one-man-app dev will [12:17] do cross platform apps anyways, its a llot of effort. I expect that someone does either UT or Android apps. ANd companies... well for companies we are far from ready to be a good app dev goal ^^ [12:18] @matv1 [and again: all those arguments have never been addressed and a cost/benefit anal …], Well then maybe you wanna do that analysis. Just saying its totally random numbers, you simply cannot analyse a market impact that you cannot measure [12:19] Take another example: COVID tracing apps. We do not even have the BT/WiFi APIs let alone background access so that they could run smoothly, not in UT or Anbox [12:20] I thought UT is project explicitly for privacy and security, I'm wrong? [12:20] Convincing people to write apps for us needs so much more, its not on my radar now like: … - Secure payment for Apps … - background activity … - Comprehensive documentation … - Graphical Qt IDE … - etc etc etc [12:20] @bhuvaneshduvvuri [I thought UT is project explicitly for privacy and security, I'm wrong?], No you are not wrong [12:23] @Flohack [Well then maybe you wanna do that analysis. Just saying its totally random numbe …], Well sure. it would be difficult to put numbers to it, but imho there has been no serious attemp to present the case that investing in Anbox could be harmfull, just as well as turn out as something good for UT. That I think should have been someth [12:23] ing for community leadership [12:25] Then, why everyone trying to do the same thing that's being done in the android, it's a community project it should be as such, let's assume that there are a lot of third party apps without regulations, the shit that android has, why would someone use UT, some people still believe in community projects and that should not be dist [12:25] ribed by implementing corporate culture. [12:26] @matv1 [Well sure. it would be difficult to put numbers to it, but imho there has been n …], The community leadership comes from the community. If you feel thats a pain point then pick it up. The core team is way beyond limits (and we are not working on Anbox) to do this right now [12:27] I am picking it up. I am talking here to the community to get ppl to see both sides [12:27] And here is the thing, without more users we wont get heard nowhere, but to gain more users you must tell a narrative for them so they can switch over. And that narrative must include an option for the apps they need [12:28] As I said, I would expect with around 1Mio users we can start getting into press and to the vendors. so lets get to 1 mio users first [12:28] (And I am already afraid of the first 50k lol) [12:29] True [12:29] i'd be happy with a maintainable OS that runs on best-practice linux base before we hit 50k [12:29] @Flohack [(And I am already afraid of the first 50k lol)], You are right things are difficult to do rather than talking about [12:29] +1 [12:30] ANd I tell you why, Ubuntu Touch is not only the client side, but we need server side and infrastructure, and thats currently not designed for so many users. Getting there will need a lot of time. So we cannot grow so big currently even if we want to [12:31] @Flohack [ANd I tell you why, Ubuntu Touch is not only the client side, but we need server …], Did UT community approach any big YouTube channels for press? [12:32] You know what I meant [12:33] @bhuvaneshduvvuri [Did UT community approach any big YouTube channels for press?], Nah dont think so, our press department consists of free-time volunteers, we get invited now and then to smaller shows, but you need a lot of time and resources to be seen [12:33] Promoting Anbox will surely bring way more publicity in a big influx of a lots of new users. And we are setting those all up for big dissapointment. As Florian just said. Android apps will either work, very slow and with limited functionality and integration, or not at all [12:34] @Flohack [Nah dont think so, our press department consists of free-time volunteers, we get …], How to join your press department [12:34] @matv1 [Promoting Anbox will surely bring way more publicity in a big influx of a lots o …], But we say this. it is for dumb apps like the Cisco 2FA app that you need to log in to your company VPN. Its not for gaming etc. People will understand this [12:35] I really hope they would... [12:36] We have a good reputation right now. Thanks in large part to yourself.. [12:37] You cannot make the world happy. We got already enough trolls that tried to sabotage our ideas, but we can resist that. The biggest challenge is getting more good developers who like to spend a few hrs every week in keeping the train moving. And a lot more testers ^^ [12:38] @bhuvaneshduvvuri [How to join your press department], ? [12:38] @Flohack [You cannot make the world happy. We got already enough trolls that tried to sabo …], I agree 100% [12:43] I don't think I'll get any answers here. [12:45] @bhuvaneshduvvuri [I don't think I'll get any answers here.], https://ubports.com/task-group-outreach [12:46] @matv1 [https://ubports.com/task-group-outreach], Thank you [14:48] @matv1 [There are over 3000 ppl in this group alone. must be between 5 and 10 k users of …], Me....every day I sand e-mails to the company. [14:55] Every day from one person might be a little excessive, and give the opposite effect than what is expected. A lot of people asking would be much more effective. [14:59] tbf, even with the current overall state of anbox itself, there are a few very small changes that can be done which will make it 10x better for people who need to use some basic apps on it today [15:01] is the battery drain fixed already? IIRC, that's one of the main issues [15:02] probably not [15:02] but i don't know what specifically causes that [15:07] also there are plenty of open source android apps that people could work on ports or rewrites of to get running on UT [15:25] @Javacookies [is the battery drain fixed already? IIRC, that's one of the main issues], Its not fixed, apps stay active even when in background it seems [15:58] Very interesting chat. I am also not a fan on investing too much on Anbox. I believe it will always be a subpar experience. I believe stability, security and longterm support is what the ubports project is about. I feel to go further in the project. There should be a kind of ubports home server which would synchronise contacts cal [15:58] endar photos with push notifications Etc. Ubuntu tried it with the UbuntuOne server. I feel its the only bit I miss from the big boys. The e android project is trying to do that with a nextcloud server. I believe something like this could be a real game changer for the project. [16:00] ubports foundation isn't meant to be in the business of hosting a public web service. but yes, you can use nextcloud already today. and it's open source, so feel free to add push support to it [16:03] And what about the foundation sponsoring someone to do push support ? [16:05] seems like maybe the way to go is actually to work with say freedombox to make it as easy as possible for ppl to run their own backends [16:05] and make sure there is UT software (not android emulation) to work as clients [16:06] @taiebot taiebot [And what about the foundation sponsoring someone to do push support ?], i don't think it's a priority for now, and not something that people are sponsoring the foundation to do [16:07] Well there are public entities that are interested in sponsoring or investing in research and development.. but that requires people organizing and doing stuff.. [16:07]