[02:26] <cmaloney> https://www.zdnet.com/article/canonical-ceo-mark-shuttleworth-makes-peace-with-ubuntu-linux-community/
[03:06] <jrwren> yeah, I thought that was interesting
[03:06] <jrwren> will be interesting to see what happens when ubuntu community clashes with canonical interests.
[03:07] <jrwren> I could easily see ubuntu community deciding they don't like snaps
[03:07] <jrwren> ;)
[05:28] <greg-g> sigh
[11:08] <cmaloney> greg-g: Yeah, I was reminded of a blogpost you made back in 2013
[11:08] <cmaloney> back when I actually blogged about the loco
[13:58] <jrwren> dang... Groovy freezes already. time is fast.
[13:59] <jrwren> why the sigh greg-g ?
[14:04] <cmaloney> jrwren: http://decafbad.net/2013/03/07/just-because-youre-grinding-the-organ-doesnt-mean-i-have-to-dance/
[14:04] <cmaloney> Has a link to the archive of Greg's post
[14:06] <cmaloney> https://web.archive.org/web/20130319054239/http://blog.grossmeier.net/2013/03/06/daddy-why-are-you-sad
[14:07] <jrwren> noice!
[14:09] <cmaloney> And this was a previous post about my feelings at the time: http://decafbad.net/2013/09/20/inertia/
[14:10] <jrwren> i don't remember what was going on in 2013 at the time.
[14:10] <jrwren> y'all need DETAILS in these posts.
[14:10] <cmaloney> I'll go back in time and tell myself. :)
[14:11] <cmaloney> The Inertia one has more details
[14:11] <cmaloney> Basically Touch, Juju, and whatever Mark Shuttleworth was banging on about in 2013
[14:12] <jrwren> oh man... 2013... no... that was after we used to do the bug jams in ann arbor. I remember greg-g organizing those.
[14:12] <cmaloney> Also was around the time when things like the Amazon integration occurred
[14:12] <jrwren> one or two, i was happy to facilitate the space.
[14:12] <cmaloney> Yeah, and then I took on organizing them
[14:12] <cmaloney> and the Global RElease parties
[14:13] <cmaloney> and then around 14.04 is when everyone pretty much stopped showing up
[14:13] <jrwren> it is amazing that #ubuntu-us-mi is still alive. y'all are great people :)
[14:13] <cmaloney> agreed. :)
[14:13] <jrwren> so... I think one of ubuntu's problems aroudn that time is that it was just too good and too done for a lot of people.
[14:13] <jrwren> why work on something when it is working just fine.
[14:14] <cmaloney> That's part of it, but there was also the sense that the community didn't matter anymore
[14:14] <cmaloney> and a lot of folks felt used
[14:14] <jrwren> the high hit rate of bugs were fixed, the only thing left was the long tail... the very very very very long tail
[14:15] <cmaloney> before we had a seat at the table and then suddenly we found ourselves expected to work in the kitchen and stay out of sight
[14:15] <cmaloney> unless you were employed by Canonical
[14:18] <jrwren> I was never involved enough in the community to feel it.
[14:19] <jrwren> I just had to load my linkedin profile to remember my own history. Jul2014 - Jun 2017 was my time at Canonical.
[14:21] <jrwren> That sept 2013 event was a year or so after Jono's departure yes? I wonder if he would have managed the community releationship better.
[14:23] <jrwren> oh, no... he left May 2014. Seems like a huge failure on Jono's part.
[14:50] <cmaloney> I think it was when SABDFL was doing more asserting
[15:03] <greg-g> jrwren: cmaloney yeah, it's all very familiar. And, well, I don't have the best memories of benjamin either :/ So it just seems like a lost community to me
[15:05] <cmaloney> I mean, I wish 'em well, and if it's genuine I'll be happy to be a part of it, but I'm not hopeful that it's much more than lip-service
[15:12] <jrwren> I wish 'em well too. Still so much potential.
[15:12] <jrwren> It seems to me that Fedora community has really stepped up in the last few years as well.
[15:16] <greg-g> Yeah, I kinda want to explore fedora more, but I'm just so surrounded by DDs at work, and we use Debian there, that I just sickt with what I know. #lazy
[15:21] <jrwren> same.
[15:22] <jrwren> and I still believe the tech reasons for deb over rpm are good reasons and useful even though they have been papered over nicely in the last 15yrs.
[15:23] <cmaloney> Though apparently ubuntu.social is getting closed on the Fediverse, in part because Popey can't maintain it
[15:23] <cmaloney> asked him about a Canonical sponsored version of the site. He said "Unlikely"
[15:23] <jrwren> huh, bummer.
[15:24] <cmaloney> I'm not going to read too much into that, but it does give me a small indication of where the focus is
[16:11] <_stink_> i had a sense back then that canonical could have done more to cultivate and direct developer talent.  i remember asking at a penguicon panel why people who were able to write code were directed so strongly to get into packaging - which is super important to a distro, but not a development task.  i never got a great answer.
[16:12] <_stink_> but why couldn't canonical identify like 2 or 3 critical gaps in the desktop experience and gather a bunch of devs to write awesome stuff to fill those gaps?
[16:12] <_stink_> they relied a lot on upstream as far as i could tell
[16:14] <_stink_> instead i viewed canonical as doing in-house dev for things that were not really about the desktop experience (apps and all), and which got them into conflict with the broader linux people.
[16:14] <_stink_> anyway that's an old impression of mine that i'm sure is not totally correct
[16:28] <jrwren> very true _stink_
[16:28] <jrwren> very very true
[16:30] <jrwren> and it doesn't help that the recommended dev stack changed every few years.
[16:30] <jrwren> first it was GTK... oh and btw, QT bad... then it was QT good!
[16:30] <jrwren> now it is flutter!?! its like WTF??!?
[16:30] <jrwren> they/we COULD have invested a whole lot more in building some rails to get devs on a sane track.
[16:31] <jrwren> but... hindsight is 20/20
[16:47] <_stink_> oh shit what is flutter
[16:48] <_stink_> oh right the billionth way to write cross platform code
[17:16] <jrwren> right... and an obscure language, DART
[17:16] <jrwren> like... WTF?!?!
[18:15] <cmaloney> But it's Google so it's all good
[18:20] <jrwren> *eyeroll*
[18:20] <jrwren> no one ever got fired for buying IBM
[18:20] <jrwren> err, MSFT
[18:20] <jrwren> err, GOOGLE
[18:29] <cmaloney> heh
[18:32] <greg-g> :) :)
[20:34] <jrwren> holy shit... I'm so pissed right now. I used to be VERY good with regular expressions and now I can't get the simplest thing to work.
[20:36] <jrwren> OMG.
[20:36] <jrwren> see... i just needed to complain somewhere... and then my stupid brain would see what it was missing.
[20:52]  * greg-g sings "Rubber ducky you're the one, you make debugging so much fun"
[21:00] <cmaloney> regular expressions: the best thing ever, unless there's a typo