[03:46] Benjamin Neblett was added by: Benjamin Neblett [04:17] @Joan Singla [I bought one to send to spain 2 days ago and I did not have any problem], ok, nice 👍 [04:32] was just the phone in your basket? [04:33] I think some people had problems if they added a case or something else - they say you need to do those separate, [04:36] maybe different facilities or something, don't remember - but the phones ship single [06:58] @Laurel Hescams [Hey folks! When I try to traceroute from the libertine container with root I get …], I think Libertine uses fakeroot, so your "best" option is to remount system rw and install it there [08:20] Hi all. I installed an android app in anbox. this app requires login. I managed to login but every time I close the app I have to login again. What can be the issue? Can I fix it somehow? Thank you [09:19] Anaan Ahamad taha was added by: Anaan Ahamad taha [10:05] @NotKit [I think Libertine uses fakeroot, so your "best" option is to remount system rw a …], I tried that, but failed due to space. I already resized /userdata/system.img, but / is still 2G; maybe I did something wrong? [10:14] @Laurel Hescams [I tried that, but failed due to space. I already resized /userdata/system.img, b …], You shouldn't need to resize for `traceroute`. Just use `sudo mount -t tmpfs tmpfs /var/cache/apt/archives` and then install with `apt`. [11:18] @Laurel Hescams [I tried that, but failed due to space. I already resized /userdata/system.img, b …], wrong partition resized, it is /userdata/rootfs.img [11:19] @Laurel Hescams [I tried that, but failed due to space. I already resized /userdata/system.img, b …], [Edit] wrong ifle resized, it is /userdata/rootfs.img [11:19] @Laurel Hescams [I tried that, but failed due to space. I already resized /userdata/system.img, b …], [Edit] wrong file resized, it is /userdata/rootfs.img [11:20] @NotKit [wrong file resized, it is /userdata/rootfs.img], But 'losetup /dev/loop0' where / is mounted said /userdata/system.img [11:20] @NotKit [wrong file resized, it is /userdata/rootfs.img], [Edit] But 'losetup /dev/loop0' where / is mounted said /userdata/system.img? [11:21] maybe there is confusion between /dev/loop0 and /dev/loop1 [11:21] system.img is normally mounted to /android/system [11:22] hm, but I may be wrong if it is legacy pre-Halium device [11:22] sorry in this case [11:32] @imraniqbal [You shouldn't need to resize for traceroute. Just use sudo mount -t tmpfs tmpfs …], Thanks for the tip. But I should need some free space on / as well? It's at 0. [11:33] @Laurel Hescams [Thanks for the tip. But I should need some free space on / as well? It's at 0.], Clear all debs from `/var/cache/apt/archives`, which you may have downloaded when attempting to use `apt` before. [11:36] Nothing's in there. :-/ [11:36] Laurel Hescams And this. [11:36] Fwd from imraniqbal: One second, just getting the commands to clear the repo lists... [11:36] Fwd from imraniqbal: ```sudo rm -rf /var/lib/apt/lists/*``` [11:36] @Laurel Hescams [Nothing's in there. :-/], what device are you one? btw? [11:36] @Laurel Hescams [Nothing's in there. :-/], [Edit] what device are you on btw? [11:36] Oneplus One. [11:37] it might be possible for you to reset the image if you have ssh access then [11:38] [Edit] it might be possible for you to reset the image if you have ssh or adb access then [11:39] that will clear whatever is filling up the rootfs but will also reset any changes you've made when you want to start fresh [11:57] Why is it such a hurdle to install to rootfs? [12:04] [Edit] Why is it such a hurdle to install to rootfs? Shouldn't it be designed not to? [12:05] Laurel Hescams This is a general overview of why the rootfs is read-only: [12:05] sure, but Ubuntu Touch is not a traditional linux distro. the rootfs is read-only because the image has to fit in a small partition on the phone, and apt/dpkg is not really secure, and it's harder to support if it were writable. apps are managed with a life cycle policy, so they don't keep running in the background. they are confined t [12:05] o prevent apps stealing data from other apps, or using location/mic/camera when not allowed, and such [12:05] @Laurel Hescams [Why is it such a hurdle to install to rootfs? Shouldn't it be designed not to?], because the os is aimed at consumers, you don't want consumers to install to the rootfs and mess something up [12:06] it becomes easier to provide support, and if they do choose to install to rootfs it should be easy to revert all changes and find the root of the issue [12:06] @Laurel Hescams [Why is it such a hurdle to install to rootfs? Shouldn't it be designed not to?], The official guidelines are to use Libertine when you need `apt` packages. [12:07] [Edit] this way it becomes easier to provide support, and if they do choose to install to rootfs it should be easy to revert all changes and find the root of the issue [12:14] Any plans for Ubuntu touch for Lumia 950 or 950 XL? [12:15] Or is that rather a domain of desktop Ubuntu? [12:15] lumia are not android devices as such we'd need to reverse engineer their drivers first before we even have a functional phone [12:15] ubports doesn't have the resources for that [12:16] @Fuseteam [because the os is aimed at consumers, you don't want consumers to install to the …], I'd assume there to be a lot of tinkerfriendly consumers who want exactly this. The argument you give is the same that locks the hardware (of Apple's, e-readers, mobile phones, etc.) down for users. [12:17] consumers and tinkerers are two different audiences ;) [12:17] and no it's not locked down like apple [12:18] i'm a tinkerer myself i have my rootfs mounted as rw and installed vim to tinker around [12:18] @Fuseteam [this way it becomes easier to provide support, and if they do choose to install …], I understand that and I am really grateful for the effort already done and am looking forward to collaborate. [12:19] you can of course do that but if something breaks it becomes really difficult to troubleshoot, the end-user will need to be able to provide enough details [12:19] [Edit] you can of course do that but if something breaks it becomes really difficult to troubleshoot, at the very least you will need to be able to provide enough details [12:19] @Fuseteam [and no it's not locked down like apple], Please don't be offended, because I didn't say that. I just noted it to be the same argument. [12:20] with the current system you can just reset the image and if the issue doesn't persist you at least know where it isn't an issue with the base image but some modifcation you may have made [12:20] @Laurel Hescams [Please don't be offended, because I didn't say that. I just noted it to be the s …], i'm not offended don't worry [12:21] the base argument is we as the users are allowed to tinker but if we do and break something, it should've be up to the maintainers to fix it [12:22] @Fuseteam [you can of course do that but if something breaks it becomes really difficult to …], If something breaks it's the user's fault. [12:22] [Edit] the base argument is we as the users are allowed to tinker but if we do and break something, it shouldn't be up to the maintainers to fix it [12:22] yes exactly but that may not always be clear with a official rw rootfs [12:23] @Fuseteam [you can of course do that but if something breaks it becomes really difficult to …], [Edit] If something breaks it's the user's fault and pers has to fix it (or reset the device). [12:23] @Fuseteam [with the current system you can just reset the image and if the issue doesn't pe …], in other words if the issue doesn't persists we know it is due to modifications by the user [12:24] @Fuseteam [yes exactly but that may not always be clear with a official rw rootfs], So it's easyier for dev's you mean to get reproducible bugs? [12:24] @Fuseteam [yes exactly but that may not always be clear with a official rw rootfs], [Edit] So it's easyier for dev's you mean to get reproducible bugs? I had not thought of this. [12:24] yes exactly [12:25] which makes support easier and makes the whole thing consumer friendly [12:25] @Fuseteam [i'm a tinkerer myself i have my rootfs mounted as rw and installed vim to tinker …], Yeah, try to install emacs then. :-P [12:25] =) [12:25] i'm sure i can do that just fine given it's not too big [12:26] That was the joke intended. [12:26] in the end i'm actually wondering more and more why apt needs the entire rootfs to be writable xD [12:27] like i'm sure if all such application works from within /opt it work just fine really [12:27] @Fuseteam [in the end i'm actually wondering more and more why apt needs the entire rootfs …], "man hier"? [12:27] notice that all click apps are installed in /opt [12:27] @Laurel Hescams ["man hier"?], oh man too eh? [12:27] Good to know; I already wondered. [12:28] @Fuseteam [in the end i'm actually wondering more and more why apt needs the entire rootfs …], Most packages will try install filed to e.g. /usr, /bin, ... [12:28] @Fuseteam [oh man too eh?], Yes. ; ) [12:28] @Fuseteam [in the end i'm actually wondering more and more why apt needs the entire rootfs …], [Edit] Most packages will try install files to e.g. /usr, /bin, ... [12:29] @TronFortyTwo [Most packages will try install files to e.g. /usr, /bin, ...], Don't forget /etc; That's why I hinted at "man hier". [12:29] @Laurel Hescams [Don't forget /etc; That's why I hinted at "man hier".], Oh right didn't get that [12:29] @TronFortyTwo [Most packages will try install files to e.g. /usr, /bin, ...], that list is so freaking long, i have yet to find a comprehensive list that's complete but isn't a listing of the entire rootfs 😂 [12:29] @TronFortyTwo [Most packages will try install files to e.g. /usr, /bin, ...], [Edit] Don't forget /etc; that's why I hinted at "man hier". [12:30] tbh i feel like most of the apps thinkers like to install are commandline apps [12:31] so if we can find a way to install those apps in /opt or even somewhere in the environment of the terminal we'd be golden [12:31] vixou was added by: vixou [12:33] @Fuseteam [tbh i feel like most of the apps thinkers like to install are commandline apps], I'm just fine with ssh (following a pretty pile of other commandline utilities). Simply, I just want a pocket GNU/Linux. [12:34] @Fuseteam [so if we can find a way to install those apps in /opt or even somewhere in the e …], there could be some writable overlay trickery [12:34] @Fuseteam [so if we can find a way to install those apps in /opt or even somewhere in the e …], Some "mount --bind" apocalypse? o_o [12:35] the unpleasant thing preventing this is that some files need to be modified instead of just placing new files (which would work fine with overlayfs) [12:35] @Laurel Hescams [Some "mount --bind" apocalypse? o_o], eh? [12:35] like dpkg database [12:35] @NotKit [the unpleasant thing preventing this is that some files need to be modified inst …], oof hmmm [12:42] Mhh, before I haven't jumped into the source code and understand rationality behind the partition scheme, I shall be quite on this topic. [12:43] [Edit] Mhh, before I haven't jumped into the source code and understand the reasoning behind the partition scheme, I shall be quite on this topic. [12:57] the rootfs size was explained by myii fwiw [12:58] the decision to go readonly is the discussion above :p [12:59] @Laurel Hescams [I'm just fine with ssh (following a pretty pile of other commandline utilities). …], btw for completeness is it ok for me to say what you want can be summed up in "commandline utilities"? [13:00] ssh is installed by default and is easy to set up fwiw [13:02] you can just plop binaries built for the appropriate architecture and ubuntu version into your home dir, assuming they're sufficiently self-contained, too; but again the solution for "i want to install legacy/CLI apps with apt" is libertine [13:02] and no, it's not a 100% coverage solution, but nothing will be [13:05] i'm actually looking into what could work with just "CLI apps", or how those thing work [13:05] @Fuseteam [i'm actually looking into what could work with just "CLI apps", or how those thi …], most just work inside libertine already [13:07] @Fuseteam [btw for completeness is it ok for me to say what you want can be summed up in "c …], Apart from what is already there, yes resp. the possibility to install some recent commandline utilities. (And the bottom buttons of my device could be programmable. ; ) [13:08] i guess then libertine just needs to be made more accessible? as iiuc currently the need to first get shell access to libertine before they can use the utilities [13:08] @Laurel Hescams [Apart from what is already there, yes resp. the possibility to install some rece …], thanks for confirming [13:08] @dohbee [you can just plop binaries built for the appropriate architecture and ubuntu ver …], That's a good hint; thanks, I'll look into this. [13:08] @Fuseteam [i guess then libertine just needs to be made more accessible? as iiuc currently …], how is opening a terminal and running `libertine-launch bash` not accessible? [13:09] compared to opening terminal and just using them? [13:10] imo, terminal shouldn't be installed by default anyway, but 🤷‍♀️ [13:10] @Laurel Hescams [Hey folks! When I try to traceroute from the libertine container with root I get …], My initial problem with libertine was privilege. I'm fine with libertine if it works. [13:11] @dohbee [imo, terminal shouldn't be installed by default anyway, but 🤷‍♀️], Why so? [13:11] libertine uses proot, so there are some things that will not work (and may break the container if installed) [13:11] @dohbee [imo, terminal shouldn't be installed by default anyway, but 🤷‍♀️], if we're gonna go there then no "solution" is going to work 🤷‍♀️ [13:12] @Laurel Hescams [My initial problem with libertine was privilege. I'm fine with libertine if it w …], really if your ok with resetting the image it's not too hard to get it to work [13:12] @Laurel Hescams [Why so?], because our goal is to build a phone OS for consumers. easy access to breaking the system is not the best way for that. and terminal wasn't there by default on the original retail Ubuntu Edition devices [13:12] @Fuseteam [if we're gonna go there then no "solution" is going to work 🤷‍♀️], "install terminal app from the store if you need it" [13:12] @Laurel Hescams [My initial problem with libertine was privilege. I'm fine with libertine if it w …], [Edit] really if your ok with resetting the image it's not too hard to solve your initial problem [13:13] i suppose that's true heh [13:14] some things are problematic to move to store still though, because of things needing to be in the rootfs [13:14] @dohbee [because our goal is to build a phone OS for consumers. easy access to breaking t …], Do you have some empirical evidence to do so? I really liked to have a terminal; it was the first thing I opened. [13:15] Hardcore terminal users of they whish can also debootstrap and chroot regular chroot containers if they wish. [13:16] well debootstrap is not in rootfs, but yes you can just `sudo chroot .` inside an unpacked chroot of your chosen OS instead of using libertine [13:16] @Laurel Hescams [Do you have some empirical evidence to do so? I really liked to have a terminal; …], i think he's refering to terminal users typically wanting to install applications via terminal which needs a rw rootfs. and we've circled back to my earlier argument about "reproducible bugs" [13:16] @TronFortyTwo [Hardcore terminal users of they whish can also debootstrap and chroot regular ch …], Thanks, I wasn't aware of this. [13:17] @Fuseteam [i think he's refering to terminal users typically wanting to install application …], no. i'm saying there's no need for the terminal app to be installed by default on a consumer device [13:17] @dohbee [well debootstrap is not in rootfs, but yes you can just sudo chroot . inside an …], Yes, I mean if you are enought interested in doing not regular phone tasks it's acceptable you do some steps more to achive that [13:17] 99.999% of people don't need/want/care about terminals [13:17] @dohbee [no. i'm saying there's no need for the terminal app to be installed by default o …], refering to the "easy access to breaking the system" argument [13:18] @dohbee [no. i'm saying there's no need for the terminal app to be installed by default o …], [Edit] i'm reffering to the "easy access to breaking the system" argument [13:18] @dohbee [no. i'm saying there's no need for the terminal app to be installed by default o …], [Edit] I'm referring to the "easy access to breaking the system" argument [13:31] @Fuseteam [so if we can find a way to install those apps in /opt or even somewhere in the e …], I have them in Documents/Software and added that to path [13:32] (Photo, 1080x2340) https://irc.ubports.com/X00T8nNp.png [13:32] @dohbee [99.999% of people don't need/want/care about terminals], But when it comes to ubuntu touch/custom roms it is more than half who would like to have it [13:33] @mrcyjanek [But when it comes to ubuntu touch/custom roms it is more than half who would lik …], it is still installable from the store; i'm not saying to get rid of it entirely [13:46] in some sense I don't get why UBPorts is still trying to enforce general consumer things Canonical envisioned when it's not true for large part of current audience [13:47] (that's about Terminal, not ro rootfs in general) [13:48] we aren't? [13:48] tbf, i want to get rid of all preinstalled clicks and have them downloaded straight from the store, verified, and installed, when UT gets installed [13:59] @mrcyjanek [I have them in Documents/Software and added that to path], that's a nice approach [14:01] @NotKit [in some sense I don't get why UBPorts is still trying to enforce general consume …], i think trying to target the general consumer is a good thing, it brings quite a few things in perspective [14:02] it's probably not bad, just no need to make life harder for non-general consumers like ourselves to achieve that [14:03] @Fuseteam [that's a nice approach], yeah, but will work only if those binaries do not depend on some not installed by default libs [14:04] @NotKit [yeah, but will work only if those binaries do not depend on some not installed b …], hmm true [14:04] I think what could be tried for "writable-like" rootfs is to have chroot with actual rootfs mounted with overlayfs over some writable location [14:05] this way it is pretty safe to use dpkg and changes won't be overwritten on update (and if it breaks, can just remove overlayed folder and start over) [14:05] @NotKit [it's probably not bad, just no need to make life harder for non-general consumer …], i mean people like us would need rw rootfs at some poin— … hmmm [14:06] @NotKit [it's probably not bad, just no need to make life harder for non-general consumer …], i think if we build things with that goal in mind, it helps us to make better software and architect things in a way to reach that goal, rather than making compromises because we're all linux nerds using a linux phone [14:06] @NotKit [I think what could be tried for "writable-like" rootfs is to have chroot with ac …], imo this is something the terminal should handle [14:08] I might stress that the original thrust of the conversation was removing clicks from the image and downloading them from the store on first boot. [14:08] There is some reason to prevent modifications to the real rootfs, and that is a pattern that operating systems of Google and Apple are moving toward. It's not worth it throw that away for the purposes of `apt install vim` in the rootfs. Or `apt install anything`. … While Apple says "go away, make a .app", Google says "Use this c [14:08] ool Linux container VM". In neither case did the user actually need to modify their system software. [14:09] well i'm not pushing to make modifications to the real rootfs perse tbh, it already possible to an extent [14:10] Overlayfs doesn't really help that, because then you can break the system with your overlay and break your overlay with the system. It's a bad experience in either case. [14:10] notkit doesn't seem to be pushing to modifying the real rootfs either iiuc [14:10] @UniversalSuperBox [Overlayfs doesn't really help that, because then you can break the system with y …], ohhmmmm [14:11] then again we always have that reset button [14:11] @UniversalSuperBox [Overlayfs doesn't really help that, because then you can break the system with y …], what you can do is overlay to a specific location and chroot into that location for terminal/installed apps [14:11] then again that doesn't reset /etc afaict [14:11] but will be still prone to breakage, true [14:12] [Edit] but things inside overlay will be still prone to breakage, true [14:12] @NotKit [what you can do is overlay to a specific location and chroot into that location …], What does that resolve compared to Libertine then? [14:12] You'd save 400MB of downloaded packages? [14:12] i might stress this more about improving the terminal experience than modifying rootfs perse [14:12] having same rootfs as outside [14:12] [Edit] i might stress this is more about improving the terminal experience than modifying rootfs perse [14:13] but Libertine itself could be definitely improved if something had time/interest to look into that, like finishing LXC backend [14:13] yes, just like anbox can be improved if someone works on it [14:13] you can run quite a lot on Sailfish with harbour-containers for example [14:14] Still trying to understand. Why is having the same rootfs inside and outside desirable? [14:14] to have access to libhybris and all "special" packages not found in xenial desktop rootfs [14:14] can be fixed with proper repos of course [14:14] libertine is already "the same" rootfs [14:15] That sounds way easier to fix inside Libertine than by creating a new solution [14:15] it has the ubports repo [14:15] @NotKit [I think what could be tried for "writable-like" rootfs is to have chroot with ac …], I have gist for that [14:16] https://gist.github.com/MrCyjaneK/9be6ee4b59ab6a18931b232cb360a1e0 [14:17] @UniversalSuperBox [What does that resolve compared to Libertine then?], (it would work on devices when libertine is not working) [14:17] Creating a new solution that is ready for shipping is still likely more difficult than fixing Libertine. [14:18] +Libertine sounds like termux to me, its not really running on the system [14:18] for me it's just tinkering, i use vim when prototyping the keyboard on the device for example [14:19] a container is a container, whether it's libertine, termux, or your shell script where you run proot yourself instead of letting libertine do it [14:20] @mrcyjanek [+Libertine sounds like termux to me, its not really running on the system], The ultimate question, does it matter? … If you're trying to modify system software, you're already modifying system software. … If you just want to run vim on your own code, does it matter if vim is running from `/usr/bin/` or `~/.cache/cont [14:20] ainers/container-1/usr/bin/`? [14:20] also i think the fix to not try to use lxc by default is in libertine already, so it should work with proot everywhere already [14:21] @UniversalSuperBox [The ultimate question, does it matter? … If you're trying to modify system softwar …], Yeah it matters, I've already had to apt install some software to make my vpn for on ut [14:21] @dohbee [also i think the fix to not try to use lxc by default is in libertine already, s …], makedev error in my case [14:21] @UniversalSuperBox [The ultimate question, does it matter? … If you're trying to modify system softwar …], As @Fuseteam mentioned, when hacking files in the rootfs. [14:21] Also chroot is actually default [14:21] @mrcyjanek [Yeah it matters, I've already had to apt install some software to make my vpn fo …], Okay, now we arrive at what is actually going on. [14:21] @UniversalSuperBox [The ultimate question, does it matter? … If you're trying to modify system softwar …], [Edit] Yeah it matters, I've already had to apt install some software to make my work vpn for on ut [14:22] @UniversalSuperBox [The ultimate question, does it matter? … If you're trying to modify system softwar …], [Edit] Yeah it matters, I've already had to apt install some software to make my vpn work for on ut [14:22] that probably doesn't matter but atm installing vim inside libertine i can go to the terminal and run vim without first getting shell access libertine [14:22] @imraniqbal [As @Fuseteam mentioned, when hacking files in the rootfs.], tbf, you can run vim on your pc and do it remotely too [14:22] which obviously confines me to the container [14:23] @dohbee [tbf, you can run vim on your pc and do it remotely too], Doesn't help if I'm away from my PC. [14:23] That's why I said, if you're modifying system software you're already modifying system software [14:23] @Fuseteam [that probably doesn't matter but atm installing vim inside libertine i can go to …], For me using vim feels better than using seabass to write some code [14:23] git is also useful sometimes [14:23] "i want to break the system" is not an argument for why vim should be installable outside the container [14:23] yes at that stage it doesn't matter how its installed [14:24] you already done broke the system to install it anyway [14:24] As developers of the system, we are in a different place compared to the system's users. If you're going to be modifying `/usr/share/unity8/*.qml` anyway, what's one more package. [14:25] But @mrcyjanek brought up what I think really started the discussion for them. [14:25] What VPN software did you need? [14:25]