[03:46] <ubptgbot> Benjamin Neblett was added by: Benjamin Neblett
 @Joan Singla [I bought one to send to spain 2 days ago and I did not have any problem], ok, nice 👍
 was just the phone in your basket?
 I think some people had problems if they added a case or something else - they say you need to do those separate,
 maybe different facilities or something, don't remember - but the phones ship single
 @Laurel Hescams [Hey folks! When I try to traceroute from the libertine container with root I get …], I think Libertine uses fakeroot, so your "best" option is to remount system rw and install it there
 Hi all. I installed an android app in anbox. this app requires login. I managed to login but every time I close the app I have to login again. What can be the issue? Can I fix it somehow? Thank you
[09:19] <ubptgbot> Anaan Ahamad taha was added by: Anaan Ahamad taha
[10:05] <ubptgbot> <Laurel Hescams> @NotKit [I think Libertine uses fakeroot, so your "best" option is to remount system rw a …], I tried that, but failed due to space. I already resized /userdata/system.img, but / is still 2G; maybe I did something wrong?
 @Laurel Hescams [I tried that, but failed due to space. I already resized /userdata/system.img, b …], You shouldn't need to resize for `traceroute`.  Just use `sudo mount -t tmpfs tmpfs /var/cache/apt/archives` and then install with `apt`.
 @Laurel Hescams [I tried that, but failed due to space. I already resized /userdata/system.img, b …], wrong partition resized, it is /userdata/rootfs.img
 @Laurel Hescams [I tried that, but failed due to space. I already resized /userdata/system.img, b …], [Edit] wrong ifle resized, it is /userdata/rootfs.img
 @Laurel Hescams [I tried that, but failed due to space. I already resized /userdata/system.img, b …], [Edit] wrong file resized, it is /userdata/rootfs.img
[11:20] <ubptgbot> <Laurel Hescams> @NotKit [wrong file resized, it is /userdata/rootfs.img], But 'losetup /dev/loop0' where / is mounted said /userdata/system.img
[11:20] <ubptgbot> <Laurel Hescams> @NotKit [wrong file resized, it is /userdata/rootfs.img], [Edit] But 'losetup /dev/loop0' where / is mounted said /userdata/system.img?
 maybe there is confusion between /dev/loop0 and /dev/loop1
 system.img is normally mounted to /android/system
 hm, but I may be wrong if it is legacy pre-Halium device
 sorry in this case
[11:32] <ubptgbot> <Laurel Hescams> @imraniqbal [You shouldn't need to resize for traceroute.  Just use sudo mount -t tmpfs tmpfs …], Thanks for the tip. But I should need some free space on / as well? It's at 0.
 @Laurel Hescams [Thanks for the tip. But I should need some free space on / as well? It's at 0.], Clear all debs from `/var/cache/apt/archives`, which you may have downloaded when attempting to use `apt` before.
[11:36] <ubptgbot> <Laurel Hescams> Nothing's in there. :-/
 Laurel Hescams And this.
 Fwd from imraniqbal: One second, just getting the commands to clear the repo lists...
 Fwd from imraniqbal: ```sudo rm -rf /var/lib/apt/lists/*```
 @Laurel Hescams [Nothing's in there. :-/], what device are you one? btw?
 @Laurel Hescams [Nothing's in there. :-/], [Edit] what device are you on btw?
[11:36] <ubptgbot> <Laurel Hescams> Oneplus One.
 it might be possible for you to reset the image if you have ssh access then
 [Edit] it might be possible for you to reset the image if you have ssh or adb access then
 that will clear whatever is filling up the rootfs but will also reset any changes you've made when you want to start fresh
[11:57] <ubptgbot> <Laurel Hescams> Why is it such a hurdle to install to rootfs?
[12:04] <ubptgbot> <Laurel Hescams> [Edit] Why is it such a hurdle to install to rootfs? Shouldn't it be designed not to?
 Laurel Hescams This is a general overview of why the rootfs is read-only:
 sure, but Ubuntu Touch is not a traditional linux distro. the rootfs is read-only because the image has to fit in a small partition on the phone, and apt/dpkg is not really secure, and it's harder to support if it were writable. apps are managed with a life cycle policy, so they don't keep running in the background. they are confined t
[12:05] <ubptgbot> o prevent apps stealing data from other apps, or using location/mic/camera when not allowed, and such
 @Laurel Hescams [Why is it such a hurdle to install to rootfs? Shouldn't it be designed not to?], because the os is aimed at consumers, you don't want consumers to install to the rootfs and mess something up
 it becomes easier to provide support, and if they do choose to install to rootfs it should be easy to revert all changes and find the root of the issue
 @Laurel Hescams [Why is it such a hurdle to install to rootfs? Shouldn't it be designed not to?], The official guidelines are to use Libertine when you need `apt` packages.
 [Edit] this way it becomes easier to provide support, and if they do choose to install to rootfs it should be easy to revert all changes and find the root of the issue
 Any plans for Ubuntu touch for Lumia 950 or 950 XL?
 Or is that rather a domain of desktop Ubuntu?
 lumia are not android devices as such we'd need to reverse engineer their drivers first before we even have a functional phone
 ubports doesn't have the resources for that
[12:16] <ubptgbot> <Laurel Hescams> @Fuseteam [because the os is aimed at consumers, you don't want consumers to install to the …], I'd assume there to be a lot of tinkerfriendly consumers who want exactly this. The argument you give is the same that locks the hardware (of Apple's, e-readers, mobile phones, etc.) down for users.
 consumers and tinkerers are two different audiences ;)
 and no it's not locked down like apple
 i'm a tinkerer myself i have my rootfs mounted as rw and installed vim to tinker around
[12:18] <ubptgbot> <Laurel Hescams> @Fuseteam [this way it becomes easier to provide support, and if they do choose to install …], I understand that and I am really grateful for the effort already done and am looking forward to collaborate.
 you can of course do that but if something breaks it becomes really difficult to troubleshoot, the end-user will need to be able to provide enough details
 [Edit] you can of course do that but if something breaks it becomes really difficult to troubleshoot, at the very least you will need to be able to provide enough details
[12:19] <ubptgbot> <Laurel Hescams> @Fuseteam [and no it's not locked down like apple], Please don't be offended, because I didn't say that. I just noted it to be the same argument.
 with the current system you can just reset the image and if the issue doesn't persist you at least know where it isn't an issue with the base image but some modifcation you may have made
 @Laurel Hescams [Please don't be offended, because I didn't say that. I just noted it to be the s …], i'm not offended don't worry
 the base argument is we as the users are allowed to tinker but if we do and break something, it should've be up to the maintainers to fix it
[12:22] <ubptgbot> <Laurel Hescams> @Fuseteam [you can of course do that but if something breaks it becomes really difficult to …], If something breaks it's the user's fault.
 [Edit] the base argument is we as the users are allowed to tinker but if we do and break something, it shouldn't be up to the maintainers to fix it
 yes exactly but that may not always be clear with a official rw rootfs
[12:23] <ubptgbot> <Laurel Hescams> @Fuseteam [you can of course do that but if something breaks it becomes really difficult to …], [Edit] If something breaks it's the user's fault and pers has to fix it (or reset the device).
 @Fuseteam [with the current system you can just reset the image and if the issue doesn't pe …], in other words if the issue doesn't persists we know it is due to modifications by the user
[12:24] <ubptgbot> <Laurel Hescams> @Fuseteam [yes exactly but that may not always be clear with a official rw rootfs], So it's easyier for dev's you mean to get reproducible bugs?
[12:24] <ubptgbot> <Laurel Hescams> @Fuseteam [yes exactly but that may not always be clear with a official rw rootfs], [Edit] So it's easyier for dev's you mean to get reproducible bugs? I had not thought of this.
 yes exactly
 which makes support easier and makes the whole thing consumer friendly
[12:25] <ubptgbot> <Laurel Hescams> @Fuseteam [i'm a tinkerer myself i have my rootfs mounted as rw and installed vim to tinker …], Yeah, try to install emacs then. :-P
[12:25] <ubptgbot> <Laurel Hescams> =)
 i'm sure i can do that just fine given it's not too big
[12:26] <ubptgbot> <Laurel Hescams> That was the joke intended.
 in the end i'm actually wondering more and more why apt needs the entire rootfs to be writable xD
 like i'm sure if all such application works from within /opt it work just fine really
[12:27] <ubptgbot> <Laurel Hescams> @Fuseteam [in the end i'm actually wondering more and more why apt needs the entire rootfs …], "man hier"?
 notice that all click apps are installed in /opt
 @Laurel Hescams ["man hier"?], oh man too eh?
[12:27] <ubptgbot> <Laurel Hescams> Good to know; I already wondered.
 @Fuseteam [in the end i'm actually wondering more and more why apt needs the entire rootfs …], Most packages will try install filed to e.g. /usr, /bin, ...
[12:28] <ubptgbot> <Laurel Hescams> @Fuseteam [oh man too eh?], Yes. ; )
 @Fuseteam [in the end i'm actually wondering more and more why apt needs the entire rootfs …], [Edit] Most packages will try install files to e.g. /usr, /bin, ...
[12:29] <ubptgbot> <Laurel Hescams> @TronFortyTwo [Most packages will try install files to e.g. /usr, /bin, ...], Don't forget /etc; That's why I hinted at "man hier".
 @Laurel Hescams [Don't forget /etc; That's why I hinted at "man hier".], Oh right didn't get that
 @TronFortyTwo [Most packages will try install files to e.g. /usr, /bin, ...], that list is so freaking long, i have yet to find a comprehensive list that's complete but isn't a listing of the entire rootfs 😂
[12:29] <ubptgbot> <Laurel Hescams> @TronFortyTwo [Most packages will try install files to e.g. /usr, /bin, ...], [Edit] Don't forget /etc; that's why I hinted at "man hier".
 tbh i feel like most of the apps thinkers like to install are commandline apps
 so if we can find a way to install those apps in /opt or even somewhere in the environment of the terminal we'd be golden
[12:31] <ubptgbot> vixou was added by: vixou
[12:33] <ubptgbot> <Laurel Hescams> @Fuseteam [tbh i feel like most of the apps thinkers like to install are commandline apps], I'm just fine with ssh (following a pretty pile of other commandline utilities). Simply, I just want a pocket GNU/Linux.
 @Fuseteam [so if we can find a way to install those apps in /opt or even somewhere in the e …], there could be some writable overlay trickery
[12:34] <ubptgbot> <Laurel Hescams> @Fuseteam [so if we can find a way to install those apps in /opt or even somewhere in the e …], Some "mount --bind" apocalypse? o_o
 the unpleasant thing preventing this is that some files need to be modified instead of just placing new files (which would work fine with overlayfs)
 @Laurel Hescams [Some "mount --bind" apocalypse? o_o], eh?
 like dpkg database
 @NotKit [the unpleasant thing preventing this is that some files need to be modified inst …], oof hmmm
[12:42] <ubptgbot> <Laurel Hescams> Mhh, before I haven't jumped into the source code and understand rationality behind the partition scheme, I shall be quite on this topic.
[12:43] <ubptgbot> <Laurel Hescams> [Edit] Mhh, before I haven't jumped into the source code and understand the reasoning behind the partition scheme, I shall be quite on this topic.
 the rootfs size was explained by myii fwiw
 the decision to go readonly is the discussion above :p
 @Laurel Hescams [I'm just fine with ssh (following a pretty pile of other commandline utilities). …], btw for completeness is it ok for me to say what you want can be summed up in "commandline utilities"?
 ssh is installed by default and is easy to set up fwiw
 you can just plop binaries built for the appropriate architecture and ubuntu version into your home dir, assuming they're sufficiently self-contained, too; but again the solution for "i want to install legacy/CLI apps with apt" is libertine
 and no, it's not a 100% coverage solution, but nothing will be
 i'm actually looking into what could work with just "CLI apps", or how those thing work
 @Fuseteam [i'm actually looking into what could work with just "CLI apps", or how those thi …], most just work inside libertine already
[13:07] <ubptgbot> <Laurel Hescams> @Fuseteam [btw for completeness is it ok for me to say what you want can be summed up in "c …], Apart from what is already there, yes resp. the possibility to install some recent commandline utilities. (And the bottom buttons of my device could be programmable. ; )
 i guess then libertine just needs to be made more accessible? as iiuc currently the need to first get shell access to libertine before they can use the utilities
 @Laurel Hescams [Apart from what is already there, yes resp. the possibility to install some rece …], thanks for confirming
[13:08] <ubptgbot> <Laurel Hescams> @dohbee [you can just plop binaries built for the appropriate architecture and ubuntu ver …], That's a good hint; thanks, I'll look into this.
 @Fuseteam [i guess then libertine just needs to be made more accessible? as iiuc currently …], how is opening a terminal and running `libertine-launch bash` not accessible?
 compared to opening terminal and just using them?
 imo, terminal shouldn't be installed by default anyway, but 🤷‍♀️
[13:10] <ubptgbot> <Laurel Hescams> @Laurel Hescams [Hey folks! When I try to traceroute from the libertine container with root I get …], My initial problem with libertine was privilege. I'm fine with libertine if it works.
[13:11] <ubptgbot> <Laurel Hescams> @dohbee [imo, terminal shouldn't be installed by default anyway, but 🤷‍♀️], Why so?
 libertine uses proot, so there are some things that will not work (and may break the container if installed)
 @dohbee [imo, terminal shouldn't be installed by default anyway, but 🤷‍♀️], if we're gonna go there then no "solution" is going to work 🤷‍♀️
 @Laurel Hescams [My initial problem with libertine was privilege. I'm fine with libertine if it w …], really if your ok with resetting the image it's not too hard to get it to work
 @Laurel Hescams [Why so?], because our goal is to build a phone OS for consumers. easy access to breaking the system is not the best way for that. and terminal wasn't there by default on the original retail Ubuntu Edition devices
 @Fuseteam [if we're gonna go there then no "solution" is going to work 🤷‍♀️], "install terminal app from the store if you need it"
 @Laurel Hescams [My initial problem with libertine was privilege. I'm fine with libertine if it w …], [Edit] really if your ok with resetting the image it's not too hard to solve your initial problem
 i suppose that's true heh
 some things are problematic to move to store still though, because of things needing to be in the rootfs
[13:14] <ubptgbot> <Laurel Hescams> @dohbee [because our goal is to build a phone OS for consumers. easy access to breaking t …], Do you have some empirical evidence to do so? I really liked to have a terminal; it was the first thing I opened.
 Hardcore terminal users of they whish can also debootstrap and chroot regular chroot containers if they wish.
 well debootstrap is not in rootfs, but yes you can just `sudo chroot .` inside an unpacked chroot of your chosen OS instead of using libertine
 @Laurel Hescams [Do you have some empirical evidence to do so? I really liked to have a terminal; …], i think he's refering to terminal users typically wanting to install applications via terminal which needs a rw rootfs. and we've circled back to my earlier argument about "reproducible bugs"
[13:16] <ubptgbot> <Laurel Hescams> @TronFortyTwo [Hardcore terminal users of they whish can also debootstrap and chroot regular ch …], Thanks, I wasn't aware of this.
 @Fuseteam [i think he's refering to terminal users typically wanting to install application …], no. i'm saying there's no need for the terminal app to be installed by default on a consumer device
 @dohbee [well debootstrap is not in rootfs, but yes you can just sudo chroot . inside an …], Yes, I mean if you are enought interested in doing not regular phone tasks it's acceptable you do some steps more to achive that
 99.999% of people don't need/want/care about terminals
 @dohbee [no. i'm saying there's no need for the terminal app to be installed by default o …], refering to the "easy access to breaking the system" argument
 @dohbee [no. i'm saying there's no need for the terminal app to be installed by default o …], [Edit] i'm reffering to the "easy access to breaking the system" argument
 @dohbee [no. i'm saying there's no need for the terminal app to be installed by default o …], [Edit] I'm referring to the "easy access to breaking the system" argument
 @Fuseteam [so if we can find a way to install those apps in /opt or even somewhere in the e …], I have them in Documents/Software and added that to path
 (Photo, 1080x2340) https://irc.ubports.com/X00T8nNp.png
 @dohbee [99.999% of people don't need/want/care about terminals], But when it comes to ubuntu touch/custom roms it is more than half who would like to have it
 @mrcyjanek [But when it comes to ubuntu touch/custom roms it is more than half who would lik …], it is still installable from the store; i'm not saying to get rid of it entirely
 in some sense I don't get why UBPorts is still trying to enforce general consumer things Canonical envisioned when it's not true for large part of current audience
 (that's about Terminal, not ro rootfs in general)
 we aren't?
 tbf, i want to get rid of all preinstalled clicks and have them downloaded straight from the store, verified, and installed, when UT gets installed
 @mrcyjanek [I have them in Documents/Software and added that to path], that's a nice approach
 @NotKit [in some sense I don't get why UBPorts is still trying to enforce general consume …], i think trying to target the general consumer is a good thing, it brings quite a few things in perspective
 it's probably not bad, just no need to make life harder for non-general consumers like ourselves to achieve that
 @Fuseteam [that's a nice approach], yeah, but will work only if those binaries do not depend on some not installed by default libs
 @NotKit [yeah, but will work only if those binaries do not depend on some not installed b …], hmm true
 I think what could be tried for "writable-like" rootfs is to have chroot with actual rootfs mounted with overlayfs over some writable location
 this way it is pretty safe to use dpkg and changes won't be overwritten on update (and if it breaks, can just remove overlayed folder and start over)
 @NotKit [it's probably not bad, just no need to make life harder for non-general consumer …], i mean people like us would need rw rootfs at some poin— … hmmm
 @NotKit [it's probably not bad, just no need to make life harder for non-general consumer …], i think if we build things with that goal in mind, it helps us to make better software and architect things in a way to reach that goal, rather than making compromises because we're all linux nerds using a linux phone
 @NotKit [I think what could be tried for "writable-like" rootfs is to have chroot with ac …], imo this is something the terminal should handle
 I might stress that the original thrust of the conversation was removing clicks from the image and downloading them from the store on first boot.
 There is some reason to prevent modifications to the real rootfs, and that is a pattern that operating systems of Google and Apple are moving toward. It's not worth it throw that away for the purposes of `apt install vim` in the rootfs. Or `apt install anything`. … While Apple says "go away, make a .app", Google says "Use this c
[14:08] <ubptgbot> ool Linux container VM". In neither case did the user actually need to modify their system software.
 well i'm not pushing to make modifications to the real rootfs perse tbh, it already possible to an extent
 Overlayfs doesn't really help that, because then you can break the system with your overlay and break your overlay with the system. It's a bad experience in either case.
 notkit doesn't seem to be pushing to modifying the real rootfs either iiuc
 @UniversalSuperBox [Overlayfs doesn't really help that, because then you can break the system with y …], ohhmmmm
 then again we always have that reset button
 @UniversalSuperBox [Overlayfs doesn't really help that, because then you can break the system with y …], what you can do is overlay to a specific location and chroot into that location for terminal/installed apps
 then again that doesn't reset /etc afaict
 but will be still prone to breakage, true
 [Edit] but things inside overlay will be still prone to breakage, true
 @NotKit [what you can do is overlay to a specific location and chroot into that location …], What does that resolve compared to Libertine then?
 You'd save 400MB of downloaded packages?
 i might stress this more about improving the terminal experience than modifying rootfs perse
 having same rootfs as outside
 [Edit] i might stress this is more about improving the terminal experience than modifying rootfs perse
 but Libertine itself could be definitely improved if something had time/interest to look into that, like finishing LXC backend
 yes, just like anbox can be improved if someone works on it
 you can run quite a lot on Sailfish with harbour-containers for example
 Still trying to understand. Why is having the same rootfs inside and outside desirable?
 to have access to libhybris and all "special" packages not found in xenial desktop rootfs
 can be fixed with proper repos of course
 libertine is already "the same" rootfs
 That sounds way easier to fix inside Libertine than by creating a new solution
 it has the ubports repo
 @NotKit [I think what could be tried for "writable-like" rootfs is to have chroot with ac …], I have gist for that
 https://gist.github.com/MrCyjaneK/9be6ee4b59ab6a18931b232cb360a1e0
 @UniversalSuperBox [What does that resolve compared to Libertine then?], (it would work on devices when libertine is not working)
 Creating a new solution that is ready for shipping is still likely more difficult than fixing Libertine.
 +Libertine sounds like termux to me, its not really running on the system
 for me it's just tinkering, i use vim when prototyping the keyboard on the device for example
 a container is a container, whether it's libertine, termux, or your shell script where you run proot yourself instead of letting libertine do it
 @mrcyjanek [+Libertine sounds like termux to me, its not really running on the system], The ultimate question, does it matter? … If you're trying to modify system software, you're already modifying system software. … If you just want to run vim on your own code, does it matter if vim is running from `/usr/bin/` or `~/.cache/cont
[14:20] <ubptgbot> ainers/container-1/usr/bin/`?
 also i think the fix to not try to use lxc by default is in libertine already, so it should work with proot everywhere already
 @UniversalSuperBox [The ultimate question, does it matter? … If you're trying to modify system softwar …], Yeah it matters, I've already had to apt install some software to make my vpn for on ut
 @dohbee [also i think the fix to not try to use lxc by default is in libertine already, s …], makedev error in my case
 @UniversalSuperBox [The ultimate question, does it matter? … If you're trying to modify system softwar …], As @Fuseteam mentioned, when hacking files in the rootfs.
 Also chroot is actually default
 @mrcyjanek [Yeah it matters, I've already had to apt install some software to make my vpn fo …], Okay, now we arrive at what is actually going on.
 @UniversalSuperBox [The ultimate question, does it matter? … If you're trying to modify system softwar …], [Edit] Yeah it matters, I've already had to apt install some software to make my work vpn for on ut
 @UniversalSuperBox [The ultimate question, does it matter? … If you're trying to modify system softwar …], [Edit] Yeah it matters, I've already had to apt install some software to make my vpn work for on ut
 that probably doesn't matter but atm installing vim inside libertine i can go to the terminal and run vim without first getting shell access libertine
 @imraniqbal [As @Fuseteam mentioned, when hacking files in the rootfs.], tbf, you can run vim on your pc and do it remotely too
 which obviously confines me to the container
 @dohbee [tbf, you can run vim on your pc and do it remotely too], Doesn't help if I'm away from my PC.
 That's why I said, if you're modifying system software you're already modifying system software
 @Fuseteam [that probably doesn't matter but atm installing vim inside libertine i can go to …], For me using vim feels better than using seabass to write some code
 git is also useful sometimes
 "i want to break the system" is not an argument for why vim should be installable outside the container
 yes at that stage it doesn't matter how its installed
 you already done broke the system to install it anyway
 As developers of the system, we are in a different place compared to the system's users. If you're going to be modifying `/usr/share/unity8/*.qml` anyway, what's one more package.
 But @mrcyjanek brought up what I think really started the discussion for them.
 What VPN software did you need?
 adding the package every time its overwritten maybe?
 @dohbee ["i want to break the system" is not an argument for why vim should be installabl …], Trying out hacks directly on QML files, before submitting a PR is very useful.
 @Fuseteam [adding the package every time its overwritten maybe?], That is probably more work to prototype, test, and create than making your own script to tinker with the rootfs.
 i mean i need to reinstall the packages i want/need everytime its overwritten
 which is as i said trivial but yeah
 Yes, that is the limitation of installing software on the system and then using system-image to upgrade the system.
 @UniversalSuperBox [What VPN software did you need?], I needed to set some things that arent available from the gui, also when editing connection file and trying to connect to it, it reported some errors which after duckduckwenting got resoved by installing some packages. … I dont really remember what was needed to install but it is in
[14:27] <ubptgbot> the chat history.. I cant search for that now because im on teleports
 @mrcyjanek [I needed to set some things that arent available from the gui, also when editing …], Okay, that is very helpful. Have you filed an issue somewhere that I can take a look at ?
 it's probably related #46  iirc
 @UniversalSuperBox [Okay, that is very helpful. Have you filed an issue somewhere that I can take a …], Well, not really I wasnt at home and just needed to urgently connect to one of servers available over the vpn
 @Fuseteam [i mean i need to reinstall the packages i want/need everytime its overwritten], How often do you encounter this?  I've only had this problem once since I started using Ubuntu Touch — when I changed channels.
 @mrcyjanek [Well, not really I wasnt at home and just needed to urgently connect to one of s …], I am very interested in knowing more about this. When you have time and you're at a PC, please ping me.
 @Fuseteam [i mean i need to reinstall the packages i want/need everytime its overwritten], [Edit] How often do you encounter this?  I've only had this problem in one situation since I started using Ubuntu Touch — when I changed channels.
 @imraniqbal [How often do you encounter this?  I've only had this problem in one situation si …], whenever i forget to update or switch channels to help with testing of other things, so maybe not that often
 @UniversalSuperBox [I am very interested in knowing more about this. When you have time and you're a …], I'll do
 i may have had to do it maybe 5-6 times
 at times forgetting i had to do it :p
[14:31] <ubptgbot> <Laurel Hescams> So what is the favourised way to install and use some not preinstalled (and not too legacy) utilities?
 if there's no need for system hacking; libertine atm
 @Laurel Hescams [So what is the favourised way to install and use some not preinstalled (and not …], http://docs.ubports.com/en/latest/userguide/dailyuse/libertine.html
[14:32] <ubptgbot> <Laurel Hescams> [Edit] So what is the favourised way to install and use some not preinstalled (and not too legacy) utilities? I read different possibilities each with some drawbacks.
 there's no other way for commandline utils atm
 you can plop a static binary somewhere in your home dir
 ok there's that way as well
 i still think the terminal application could handle that for self contained applications
 [Edit] i still think the terminal application could handle that for self contained cli applications
[14:36] <ubptgbot> <Laurel Hescams> @NotKit [yeah, but will work only if those binaries do not depend on some not installed b …], Can't you just put the libraries in there as well and add the path to LD_LIBRARY_PATH?
 @Flohack Teleports crashes when it is downloading many messages. I have to open it 2-3 times to let it complete downloading all the messages. After it is done, it works fine and usually crashes occasionally. Is this a known bug?
 I am using halium generic image
 i believe that's a known bug yes
 it happens on supported devices as well
 how performant is it for you? for me sometimes it does not crash but UI freezes
 @NotKit [how performant is it for you? for me sometimes it does not crash but UI freezes], it behaves pretty much same here
 People, have Ubuntu touch 32 bits gsi?
 no there's no 32 bit gsi afaik, the gsi only for android 9 iirc
 @ItsMeShouko [@Flohack Teleports crashes when it is downloading many messages. I have to open …], Its a known bug yes.
 @mrcyjanek is this the original issue you encountered with vpn? https://github.com/ubports/ubuntu-touch/issues/46
 @Fuseteam [tbh i feel like most of the apps thinkers like to install are commandline apps], dalton i think had an idea where terminal launched you into a libertine env by defaut mounted with a user file folder for interaction, you could apt install anything and use terminal apps like normal
 Yes, but then it's not entirely clear where you are on the system.
 we would need some kind of thing that changes the prompt
 Something that I think is important to WSL, Crostini, and Libertine is that it's clear you're in a different place.
 http://docs.ubports.com/en/latest/userguide/dailyuse/libertine.html see shell acess and the bind mounts section @Fuseteam
 And it's clear (or at least implied) that installing your VPN software won't actually fix your VPN, for example.
[15:16] <ubptgbot> <Laurel Hescams> @UniversalSuperBox [And it's clear (or at least implied) that installing your VPN software won't act …], Can you elaborate on that?
 I suspect that if you give someone a transparent Libertine container on Ubuntu Touch when they first open the Terminal app, they may expect to do things they could do on any other Ubuntu remix, such as installing an alternative desktop environment.
 With apt hard-failing now, it at least gives a contact point where someone who would try to do that needs to ask how to do what they want to do
[15:21] <ubptgbot> Jim Katsanos was added by: Jim Katsanos
[15:23] <ubptgbot> <Jim Katsanos> soooo... I'm interested on installing ub on my device , to use it as a daily driver.. should I? Is anyone using it as a daily driver? what are the pros and cons vs android? is it stable enough? sorri for this huge paragraph 😂
 Hi Jim, unfortunately a blanket answer to that question isn't possible. Everyone has their own things that they need for their device. And of course this group is a little biased to tell you that it's great and you'll never need anything else. ;)
 Yes, people are using Ubuntu Touch on the devices they carry every day.
[15:25] <ubptgbot> <Jim Katsanos> @UniversalSuperBox [Hi Jim, unfortunately a blanket answer to that question isn't possible. Everyone …], wellp thanks so much:) … I will give it a try anyways! :D
 First you have to check if your phone is compatible.
 @mateosalta [dalton i think had an idea where terminal launched you into a libertine env by d …], or a libertine-terminal app perhaps?
 @mateosalta [http://docs.ubports.com/en/latest/userguide/dailyuse/libertine.html see shell ac …], i know i'm just talking about improving the experience while not letting go of the ideal that we ultimately want it to be usable to consumers
 @Fuseteam [or a libertine-terminal app perhaps?], i think we'll need to change some things about how terminal apps work to do it right. and libertine needs a lot of improvement first. so i don't think it's worth expending too much energy to think about right now, as it won't happen soon
 yeah this is a probably a long-term thing
 @Fuseteam [or a libertine-terminal app perhaps?], oh there is an idea
 @Fuseteam [@mrcyjanek is this the original issue you encountered with vpn? https://github.c …], No, it was entirely different, caused by using latest version of openvpn on server and outdated one on ut
 ah
[16:27] <ubptgbot> zjxpot was added by: zjxpot
 Ubuntu Touch OTA-13 has been released at 1% phase for testing the upgrader. If you're chomping at the bit to upgrade your device on the stable channel, you may run `sudo system-image-cli --progress=dots -p 1` to get the update right meow.
 The command must be run from adb or ssh.
 > right meow
 me mind: oh no not again
 @Javacookies there we go
 @UniversalSuperBox [Ubuntu Touch OTA-13 has been released at 1% phase for testing the upgrader. If y …], Hells to the yeah! Congrats on the awesome thing
 awesome! but stable on the xperia x is arm64 right? I'm gonna miss some apps like bluetooth transfer app....
 @UniversalSuperBox [Ubuntu Touch OTA-13 has been released at 1% phase for testing the upgrader. If y …], i guess it's time to do a lot of merges then :P
 @Javacookies [awesome! but stable on the xperia x is arm64 right? I'm gonna miss some apps lik …], poke the app devs meow
 @Fuseteam [poke the app devs meow], I can't find the fork repo, the original is in launchpad which might be outdated
 of the bluetooth transfer app you mean?
 oof that diffy to find o.O
 guess we'll have to dig into /opt to see what we can find
 @Javacookies [I can't find the fork repo, the original is in launchpad which might be outdated], https://github.com/floop2/ubtd
 and @floop2 is in here too :P
 oh okay, it's not linked in the openstore so it was hard to find 😅
 thanks!
 yeah, it took a minute :P
 @UniversalSuperBox [Ubuntu Touch OTA-13 has been released at 1% phase for testing the upgrader. If y …], not working
 on which device and how is it not working
 @UniversalSuperBox [on which device and how is it not working], on pro 5
 how is it not working
 @UniversalSuperBox [how is it not working], ok my bad is working
 (Photo, 1280x720) https://irc.ubports.com/EZiz0ciY.png
 Updated
 floop2, eh? i was looking on fourloop2002 😂
 The wanting to get rid of Libertine seems silly to me. Instead to me it just needs fixes - first to the install experience (needs to be able to continue to download even when not on top with screen active, if it showed the terminal progress by default during install might also help for people) - and second it needs some gui compatibili
[17:33] <ubptgbot> ty fixes (with keeping elements from spilling off of display, and with allowing scaling of gui's graphical elements)
 we aren't talking about getting rid of libertine fwiw
 need a full featured text editor on UT? Then `medit` via Libertine is still the best option I have found so far
 the gui is meant to be used with external screen either way
 a full featured text editor? none tops vim for me
 @Fuseteam [a full featured text editor? none tops vim for me], Well, seems people are wanting to have something substantially different than a containered experience for the x11 apps- but to me instead of having a stressed development team having to come up with something new we just need to make what is already there better
 @Fuseteam [a full featured text editor? none tops vim for me], [Edit] Well, seems some people are wanting to have something substantially different than a containered experience for the x11 apps- but to me instead of having a stressed development team having to come up with something new we just need to make what is already there bette
[17:37] <ubptgbot> r
 @Fuseteam [a full featured text editor? none tops vim for me], yup - I consider that an ide aimed for developers more than a text editor aimed for laypeople that need to tweak and annotate rather than code.  So perhaps I should not use the words "full featured" and instead say nicely usable even on a phone form factor.
 @TotalSonic [Well, seems some people are wanting to have something substantially different th …], no, people were talking almost exclusively about CLI stuff earlier
 @Fuseteam [the gui is meant to be used with external screen either way], there are a few desktop apps usable on phone (e,g, gtick, medit, aisleriot, gthumb, xournal)- and with the ability to scale gui as well as keep elements from spilling off of screen they would be way more usable even on mobile devices.
 @dohbee [no, people were talking almost exclusively about CLI stuff earlier], ok, I stand corrected
 In regards to that - I really like that a Terminal app is included by default and have found it enormously useful in terms of making my own device more functional (Meizu Pro 5) - but I have zero problems using cli apps within Libertine
 @TotalSonic [Well, seems some people are wanting to have something substantially different th …], we aren't talking about about x11 apps either, nor about adding to the workload of the dev team
 @Fuseteam [we aren't talking about about x11 apps either, nor about adding to the workload …], okey dokes
 @TotalSonic [yup - I consider that an ide aimed for developers more than a text editor aimed …], actually vim is actually nice for that as well if you learn how it works, it's very usable on the phone form factor ime
 i really should finish my flick keyboard and look into making a tool to install vim and friends.
 @TotalSonic [yup - I consider that an ide aimed for developers more than a text editor aimed …], [Edit] actually vim is actually not that usable out of the box as a ide but really nice for that if you learn how it works, it's very usable on the phone form factor ime
 @Fuseteam [i really should finish my flick keyboard and look into making a tool to install …], that would be great if you managed that :)
 lol the flick thingie is deffo long overdue :x
 @Fuseteam [poke the app devs meow], Yes, please, I need UBsync!
 @ruedigerkupper [Yes, please, I need UBsync!], i'm not the dev of UBsync
 I didn't presume. Just wanted to support your call.
 ehhhhhmmmmmmm
 Any min now
 It'll be ota time
 @Fuseteam [ehhhhhmmmmmmm], Your call about pinging developers to compile for 64 bit. Remember?
[19:04] <ubptgbot> <Laurel Hescams> @mrcyjanek [No, it was entirely different, caused by using latest version of openvpn on serv …], I had exactly the same problem and did not want to change my server configuration for the legacy version of openvpn. I'll try with static compiling it some time.
 @ruedigerkupper [Your call about pinging developers to compile for 64 bit. Remember?], ah now i remember 👴
 Transition to 64 bit on the Xperia X was smooth and fairly seamless using the Installer. Only thing is some apps  missing for 64 bit.
 Does ota work on gsi?
 I know it would take expanding root, and a lot of space - but has anyone done installing the armhf libs, that would be a cool thing to get a tutorial for
 @mateosalta [I know it would take expanding root, and a lot of space - but has anyone done in …], It likely won't work
 And it'll break with an ota
 they are in named folders
 I don't think anyone has tried or documented that, no
 it would double what the system takes up though...
 Not necessarily. You probably wouldn't need Oxide or QtWebEngine
 Worth a try.
 Let us know how it works :D
 specifically I would want qtwebengine for what i'm trying :P
 the thing I want to get going is the armhf version of the browser, to load the widevine
 In theory it could all be loaded into a single click
 In practice, wow good luck...
 soo, i'm pretty sure click doesn't have support for multi-arch
 @dohbee [soo, i'm pretty sure click doesn't have support for multi-arch], Lol
 Well, you're right of course, but you can LD_PRELOAD anything
 hm, kernel option? https://stackoverflow.com/questions/34648832/can-old-arm32-binary-files-be-run-on-aarch64-kernel
 @UniversalSuperBox [Well, you're right of course, but you can LD_PRELOAD anything], no, i mean even if you install all the 32-bit libs inside the click, it will still be an`armhf` click, not `arm64` and the review tool will complain if you try to make it arm64 instead; and click itself doesn't know about multiple architecutres on the same
[19:14] <ubptgbot> system
 @mateosalta [hm, kernel option? https://stackoverflow.com/questions/34648832/can-old-arm32-bi …], i think the kernel has it enabled, so that aspect should be fine
 ok  that is good
 @dohbee [no, i mean even if you install all the 32-bit libs inside the click, it will sti …], it will be named _multi
 it might not make it in the store maybe?
 I used to do the 'fat' packages a few times
 you can try to build it i guess
 well you definitely can't put it in the store if you shove the widevine.so in it too
 [Edit] well you definitely can't put it in the store if you shove the `widevine.so` in it too
 the thing that would be put in the store is the system libs to enable the other arch
 then you could find and run armhf clicks if you had them, or something like that
 no, see aforementioned comment about click not supporting multi-arch
 @mateosalta [the thing that would be put in the store is the system libs to enable the other …], That one wouldn't work
 ah
 I meant one click containing all of the things you needed to execute that single application
 oh yeah, click would probally complain then
 yeah. you might get away with including it all directly in your click (though it may break at some point when the system libs like mir change)
 I'm not sure click would care really
 Maybe the review would turn up "hey, this isn't an arm64 binary"
 OTA13: congrats!!!
 I guess someone would have to try it the manual way first
 prehaps this after expanding the root, then apt install morph for armhf? : https://forum.armbian.com/topic/4764-running-32-bit-applications-on-aarch64/
 just try on a device you're not afraid to reinstall if it breaks
 :)
 another option to try could be downloading armhf rootfs and using it as chroot with proper bind-mounts
 ah, that could be good
 would be easier to do a script for
 @NotKit [another option to try could be downloading armhf rootfs and using it as chroot w …], Or just making an alpine chroot
 It'd be smaller
 but no Morph
 True
 But firefox
 Can we just sit back and appreciate that @lduboeuf accounted for almost a quarter of all PRs merged in the OTA-13 cycle? Or Chris Clime and @Javacookies' 1000 lines of changes to Morph Browser and weeks of effort to get QtWebEngine 5.14 running? How about the work of Konrad, Kieran, Alfred, and Vince to get four new devices in t
[19:39] <ubptgbot> he installer and released with a Stable channel? … All these and more coming to your Ubuntu Touch device in OTA-13. :) … r
 [Edit] Can we just sit back and appreciate that @lduboeuf accounted for almost a quarter of all PRs merged in the OTA-13 cycle? Or Chris Clime and @Javacookies' 1000 lines of changes to Morph Browser and weeks of effort to get QtWebEngine 5.14 running? How about the work of Konrad, Kieran, Alfred, and Vince to get four new devic
[19:39] <ubptgbot> es in the installer and released with a Stable channel? … All these and more coming to your Ubuntu Touch device in OTA-13. :) … https://ubports.com/blog/ubport-blogs-news-1/post/ubuntu-touch-ota-13-release-3720
 @UniversalSuperBox [Can we just sit back and appreciate that @lduboeuf accounted for almost a quarte …], Wow
 Good job!
 I love OTA-13!
 @Hannah122 [I love OTA-13!], Agreed - it really adds some nice polish to the whole OS, and fixes some long time nagging problems (e.g. text selection in Morph, easy import and export of vcf for Contacts).
 (Sticker, 512x512) https://irc.ubports.com/4woo0qbj.webp
 Kudos to the entire UBports team!!
 i think everyone might like this
 (Photo, 1451x2560) https://irc.ubports.com/v7VMQNxs.png
 Wow so nice Ota 13 😁😁
 the new qtwebengine has dark mode :)
 @mateosalta [<reply to media>], Very nice!
 (Document) https://irc.ubports.com/ixLV98nn.null
 @mateosalta [<reply to media>], What's this
 dark mode morph for ota 13
 @mateosalta [dark mode morph for ota 13], Ahh
 it is just a few flags away, now we just need a button somewhere
 UT Tweak Tool?
 probally better right in the browser settings, users have wanted the feature for awhile
 @mateosalta [probally better right in the browser settings, users have wanted the feature for …], agreed - as part of Morph settings is definitely the best place for it
 cool
 https://github.com/ubports/morph-browser/issues/175
[20:12] <ubptgbot> Elena was added by: Elena
[20:17] <ubptgbot> ashiqulislam1 was added by: ashiqulislam1
 Who managed to run chrome here
 long time ago in libertine
 well chromium
 It wasn't libertine
 It was a very bad way of doing it
 But I wanna speak to the person who did it
 oh i remember is was just straight through xmir
 Using the command from the blog post says 'Already up-to-date', any clue?
 @mateosalta [oh i remember is was just straight through xmir], Yeah
 let me see if i have the link
 and it wouldn't work with wayland right now :)
 I don't have Wayland on my phone I don't think
 which phone?
 not the pinephone?
 BQ e 4.4
 ah
 [Edit] BQ e 4.5
 this was the page that showed how
 https://mutse.github.io/2015/11/08/howto-launch-desktop-apps-on-utouch/
 the script told xmir what to do
 you will run out of space in the root image, i suggest delting language packs and keyboard packs other than your own lang
 or resizing if you are comfortable with that
 I installed firefox
 Wanna launch it xD
 you could try with xmir :)
 you will have to use xmir
 I remember when someone did the whole mate desktop
 https://linux.softpedia.com/blog/watch-ubuntu-mate-desktop-running-on-meizu-mx4-with-ubuntu-touch-498281.shtml
 @mateosalta [https://linux.softpedia.com/blog/watch-ubuntu-mate-desktop-running-on-meizu-mx4- …], mate running on top of xmir no?
 it might have been in libertine i think
 but xwayland is going to be so much better, x11 already is much better on pinephone
 sounds awesome
 will be cool to see some xwayland apps in the store eventually
 @mateosalta [will be cool to see some xwayland apps in the store eventually], well problem more or less is, they dont scale at all xP
 yeah, so that is where users hand pick ones that do
 telegram did rather well at this i think
 probally some electron type apps
 telegram-desktop is Qt and can just run on wayland already
 but telegram is qt, so should run using wayland
 also election is getting wayland support soon ish
 @dohbee [telegram-desktop is Qt and can just run on wayland already], oh, I should try then
 then someone should package it :)
 but its slow
 @mariogrip [also election is getting wayland support soon ish], really? chromium is getting wayland support?
 @dohbee [really? chromium is getting wayland support?], sure does
 woah
 https://www.reddit.com/r/linux/comments/iuerlb/electron_will_support_wayland_soon/
 but electron apps could also theoretically be built as html5 apps using webapp-container instead, too
 I should try vlcqt again
 @dohbee [but electron apps could also theoretically be built as html5 apps using webapp-c …], no, they use node apis
 @mateosalta [I should try vlcqt again], Might need an X11 backend if VLC decides to act up on Wayland.
 last time i ran into a docs package that was all arch that docker complained about in clickable
 @mariogrip [no, they use node apis], like https://open-store.io/app/ucopay.nanuc does?
 Ahhh I'm getting weird stuff
 @dohbee [like https://open-store.io/app/ucopay.nanuc does?], some apps i guess would work, but most apps use nodejs for most things
 if they are just webwrappers it would work
 but many *like the ubports installer* use nodejs to do system things
 @mariogrip [but many *like the ubports installer* use nodejs to do system things], But we need to install Ubuntu touch with Ubuntu touch
 Is there a way to include those dependencies with the html5 thing
 @mariogrip [but many *like the ubports installer* use nodejs to do system things], doesn't axolotl do so too?
 @dohbee [doesn't axolotl do so too?], it has 2 modes, client and server mode
 client works with xmlhttprequest and server uses the built in node stuff
 @mariogrip [but telegram is qt, so should run using wayland], on PinePhone, using non-EGL Wayland apps used to crash Lomiri
 has this been fixed?
 (Video, 3s) https://irc.ubports.com/CQILHEYM.mp4 Sad
 @NotKit [on PinePhone, using non-EGL Wayland apps used to crash Lomiri], not yet, it needs this https://github.com/ubports/qtmir/commit/1b935fc9b792ba2f894ec1a026cba2a11d073889
 but its still a messy hack
 @Hannah122 [<reply to media>], did you edit the launcher
 @mateosalta [did you edit the launcher], Yep
 aw, it might be a long time broken then
 I'll double check I did it right
 @Hannah122 [<reply to media>], this libertine?
 @mariogrip [this libertine?], No
 You don't want to know tbh
 lol
 I think they were trying to launch straight with xmir
 there was the old how to floating around
 ah, then you will need to use the xmir-helper
 @mateosalta [https://mutse.github.io/2015/11/08/howto-launch-desktop-apps-on-utouch/], Thid
 @mateosalta [https://mutse.github.io/2015/11/08/howto-launch-desktop-apps-on-utouch/], [Edit] This
 But Firefox instead of chromium
 Anyway to get crash logs?
 Firefox also supports Wayland natively already (at least if built with correct flags)
 also you can ignore the script and use a special function in the desktop file `X-Ubuntu-XMir-Enable=true`
 @mariogrip [also you can ignore the script and use a special function in the desktop file X- …], Ahh OK
 I'll restore stock .desktop then
 (Photo, 720x1280) https://irc.ubports.com/wLKg9Lfa.png Like this?
 Cause it still crashes :(
 And libertine I couldn't get to work before
 whats in .cache/upstart/application-legacy (firefox something)?
 (Photo, 720x1280) https://irc.ubports.com/WDeIclN9.png No file :(
 thats odd
 whats in application-failed?
 (Photo, 720x1280) https://irc.ubports.com/JVQIMNYv.png
 Ahh android rotate sucks
 Anyway you can see lol
 odd
 Have I messed up my phone xD
 Gtg now
 what happens if you run the script you created from the website?
 Good night all
 kk
 @mariogrip [what happens if you run the script you created from the website?], Same
 I'll try in morning
 ok gn :)
 Gn
 hm, wasnt there a trick to use a minimial wm
 box something?
 Openbox?
 matchbox is already inside libertine
 thats it
 and used iirc
 On ut? To launch— hmmmm
 well not if you are outside the container
 Well that's shift now we're attempting to run firefox on ut xD
 well sure
 Wait could it be my build was from alpine
 @Fuseteam [Well that's shift now we're attempting to run firefox on ut xD], it came preinstalled on the m10 in the puritine container
 Don't they do weird stuff?
 @Hannah122 [Wait could it be my build was from alpine], that definitely won't work
 Puritine?
 @dohbee [that definitely won't work], Damn I'm so dumb
 Alright I'll fix in morning and use a proper build
 Iphone alert
 the bold text
 ?
 Yes the bold text
 @Hannah122 [Wait could it be my build was from alpine], yeah, nothing from alpine will work as they use musl while we use glibc
 lol, why are the iphone always users yelling in here ;p
 XD
 @mariogrip [yeah, nothing from alpine will work as they use musl while we use glibc], Wow. The latest stable edition on the FP2 is absolutely amazing. Fast, crisp, and smooth as silk! Well done. Every app opens so quick
 I didn't talk about it in the blog post, but "One Weird Trick" lead to app placeholders opening .5-1.5 seconds faster than before OTA-13
 That was https://github.com/ubports/ubuntu-app-launch/pull/21
 @UniversalSuperBox [I didn't talk about it in the blog post, but "One Weird Trick" lead to app place …], yeah we should add that
 My testing of it was inconclusive, I couldn't figure out if it was just the placeholders or the entire app startup time
 @UniversalSuperBox [My testing of it was inconclusive, I couldn't figure out if it was just the plac …], the the entire app, as it was wating for the handshake before running telling upstart to exec
 the dbus roundtrip was random how fast it ran, but most of the time it was 0.5s and up to 2s
 well it was not dbus fault it was bad glib code that waited too long
 and no, im not patching glib xP
 anyway wating for the handshake is useless anyway, there is no benefit of waiting as the only thing the handshake does it to tell qtmir that an app is starting, but qtmir already knows
 @UniversalSuperBox [Can we just sit back and appreciate that @lduboeuf accounted for almost a quarte …], Kudos thanks 👏👏👏
 (Document) https://irc.ubports.com/cAVt5FCl.mp4
 @ahoneybun [<reply to media>], Oh! hello :D
 long time no see :D
 Indeed
 I has a PinePhone
 @UniversalSuperBox [Can we just sit back and appreciate that @lduboeuf accounted for almost a quarte …], WOOP WOOP, GOOD JOB EVERYONE1!!!
 once heimdall is added to the installer I can officially add my device to the installer