lotuspsychjegood morning02:46
ducassegood morning07:30
guivercmgedmin, :) @ crystal ball...11:13
lotuspsychjetrolls cough cough11:13
mgedminthe weirdest wayland-vs-xorg bug I had was when <Super> didn't work in xorg sessions when using a non-primary keyboard layout in gnome 3.something11:16
lotuspsychjebeen a while since i tested wayland11:17
lotuspsychjebut seen an article this week they named xorg as abandonware11:17
mgedminI saw the discussion about that article on discourse11:17
mgedminI wonder when ubuntu will try wayland-as-default again11:18
mgedminprobably not until after gnome-remote-desktop is properly integrated (AFAIU it's blocked on some MIR)11:18
lotuspsychjewasnt that predicted for 21.04?11:18
mgedminwell yes because clearly not 20.10 :)11:18
mgedminlife without snap'd apps is hard11:19
lotuspsychjewas the article i saw passby11:19
Perdurabohello IRC test16:52
Perdurabodo you see this16:52
daftykinstest failed16:54
akemIt looks like pixels.16:54
Perdurabohaha :)16:56
sarnoldpixels *everywhere*17:54
ash_worksiis sway akin to dwm ?19:10
ash_worksio/ mgedmin19:11
mgedmina wayland compositor is like an X11 window manager merged with the X11 server into one process19:11
ash_worksiand i3 is also a compositor?19:11
mgedmini3 is a window manager for X1119:11
ash_worksibut i3 is an X compositor and sway is a wayland compositor?19:11
Maikah you're already here. Cool19:11
sarnoldsway is like X11 and dwm glued together into one process19:11
sarnoldoh hah mgedmin already said it :019:11
mgedminon X11 the X server, the window manager, and the compositor could be three separate programs19:11
mgedminanyone remember xcompmgr?19:12
mgedminthe compositor and the window manager were often combined into one program19:12
ash_worksiso, for 18 (i know, I should upgrade) what are the defaults for all three?19:12
mgedmin18.04?  you have a gnome desktop on Xorg by default19:13
ash_worksignome in this case is...19:13
mgedminthis means gnome-shell is the window manager and compositor, and Xorg is the X11 server19:13
ash_worksiokay, so does "DE" encompass all of this?19:13
mgedmingnome is a desktop environment, which is a collection of programs that include the window manager, a settings program, a file manager, a bunch of applications, ...19:14
ash_worksiso, "gnome" is the collection of all the prepackaged programs or just a subset of ones that come with the ubuntu distro/19:14
mgedminubuntu includes more things than gnome, if I understood your question correctly19:15
ash_worksiso is gnome abstract; like a set of programs but this doesn't imply an architecture that requires some set of programs? (for example, if I have a "gnome DE" then is sway an incompatible application? {not to say that the system could not be changed to fit compatibility})19:17
mgedmingnome is a concrete project with concrete programs, and sway is not part of it19:20
ash_worksimgedmin: that's not what i mean19:20
ash_worksiI mean to say, suppose you uninsteall the default wm for gnome and install a different one; is it no longer gnome? is that not possible to begin with?19:20
mgedminit used to be possible, but I don't know if it still is?  gnome's components are pretty interdependent19:21
ducasseunder wayland you can't do that, with x11 you might be able to19:21
ash_worksiso what is the DE that supports wayland?19:22
ducassegnome runs under wayland19:24
ducasseand x1119:24
ash_worksilike, one or the other19:25
MaikKDE is working on making plasma run on wayland too19:26
ash_worksithere are... so many thing things @_@19:27
ash_worksiso do ubuntu flavors just dictate what 3rd party software comes prepackaged? (eg firefox?)19:28
ash_worksiI mean eg, xubuntu19:28
sarnoldash_worksi: yes, the flavours get to set their own seeds19:28
ash_worksiis ubuntu switching from x11 to wayland as a "concession" or a "progression" in people's minds?19:31
sarnoldin my mind it's a concession; in a lot of other minds it's a progression :)19:31
sarnoldwe tried shipping wayland as the default in 17.10 and it didn't go great19:31
sarnoldit's hopefully better now19:32
ash_worksiand that was, I guess using sway?19:32
sarnoldbut it feels like wayland folks went out of their way to make sure stuff that worked in X11 don't work in wayland19:32
sarnoldno, sway is way too niche for a default choice19:32
sarnoldit was gnome but wayland19:33
ash_worksiso when people "make the switch"... are they usually scrapping gnome?19:33
ash_worksiswitch from x11 to wayland I mean19:34
daftykinsno you've just been told gnome runs on both19:34
sarnoldsome people do run sway19:34
ash_worksidaftykins: that doesn't contradict my statement19:34
sarnoldbut I bet more people run gnome on wayland than run sway19:35
ash_worksioh sway is a full DE?19:35
daftykinsthen i have to ask why you'd think they'd change? also, why it matters now since Wayland's still not widely adopted19:35
ash_worksidaftykins: this is a new arena for me; I might ask stupid questsion19:35
daftykins'new' is in fact the theme here, too new to worry about :)19:36
daftykinsexcluding development years xD19:36
ash_worksiwell, it's not just wayland, it's everything; there are a lot of moving parts I don't have a handle on19:36
ducasseash_worksi: sway is basically i3 for wayland19:37
ash_worksibut yes, initially I came here because of a video of someone saying, "I'm impressed" when trying sway and me having no idea what was impressive about it.... at all19:37
ash_worksiducasse: right but that didn't help because I was still differentiating i3 from dwm, for example19:38
ash_worksiand i did ask earlier if sway was akin to dwm, but it sounds more like it's akin to gnome19:38
ducasseash_worksi: to a certain extent, you can use the same config file for sway as you did for i3, with minor changes19:39
ducassesway is more like dwm than gnome, it's not a full de19:39
ash_worksibut they are technically different protocols (wayland vs x...11?...org?)19:39
ducasseyes, totally different19:40
ash_worksiso what DE does sway run in?19:40
ducasseit's not a de, just a compositor. think of it as a wm19:40
ash_worksiI don't know that that helps, because I sort of think as wms as modular19:41
ash_worksiand that might be wrong19:41
ash_worksiit's all just an abstract hierarchy for me19:41
ducassewayland doesn't use the term window manager, the wm is 'baked into' the compositor and display server19:41
mgedminand x11 doesn't often use the term compositor because it's usually baked into the window manager19:42
ash_worksiOH "TERM" as in vocabulary!19:43
mgedminyes :)19:43
ash_worksiI thought this was 'the "term window manager"'19:43
ash_worksilike xterm or something19:43
mgedminwording is hard19:43
* ash_worksi doesn't have a great grasp on this vocabulary19:43
ducasseunder x11, the display server, wm and compositor are often separate processes, under wayland they're all one19:44
ash_worksiso Ubuntu( gnome{x11 proto}(gnome-shell wm/compositor, Xorg X11 server, <...other stuff>) + apps like FF, TB, ...) ?19:47
ducassesorry, i can't decipher that19:48
ash_worksiso Ubuntu is the combination of gnome (running on the x11 protocol) + apps; gnome is a DE which is a collection of the gnome-shell wm/compository, Xorg x11 server and other stuff19:49
ash_worksiis that right?19:50
ducassewell, x11 is not part of gnome, but a separate project. gnome runs on top of it.19:50
ash_worksibut the current distro of Ubuntu denotes that gnome is running "on top" of x11?19:51
ash_worksi(and x11 is indeed a protocol, right?)19:51
ducasseby default, yes19:51
ash_worksiand all flavors of ubuntu just change the apps that come with gnome, yes?19:51
daftykinsno, they ditch gnome mostly :)19:52
ash_worksiand here I thought I had a handle on it :\19:52
daftykinsxubuntu? -> XFCE19:53
daftykinskubuntu? -> KDE19:53
ash_worksido they all use x11?19:53
ducasseyes, but they're working on plasma for wayland19:54
ash_worksiand do they all use xorg for the server?19:54
ducasseyou just asked that19:54
ash_worksiI was making a distinction between the "x11 server" and the "x11 protocol"19:54
mgedminwell, no, we told ash_worksi that x11 and xorg are different things19:54
ash_worksisorry for questions that doen't make sense19:54
mgedminx11 is the only protocol that xorg supports19:55
mgedminthere are almost no x11 servers that aren't xorg on linux land19:55
mgedminthere exist (or used to) x11 servers for other operating systems19:55
daftykinswhilst one might be the server and one a protcol, i think people tend to use the terms synonymously due to that19:56
mgedminso yes, all the linux desktop environments that use xorg use x1119:56
mgedminand people ofen use the terms interchangeably19:56
ash_worksii see20:31
ash_worksiI have to take care of an accident20:31
ash_worksibut I appreciate all your help20:31
ash_worksiducasse  daftykins mgedmin ^20:31
ash_worksican I use gnome-shell wm and dwm interchangably?21:03
ash_worksilike, can you "hot swap" window managers?21:04
sarnoldash_worksi: you probably can't do that with gnome-shell21:05
sarnoldash_worksi: it used to be pretty common to be able to swap window managers at run time -- you'd just run something *else* as the 'magic process', and then you could kill, restart, run another, window manager all you wanted21:05
ash_worksiI am interested in dwm, but I currently don't have a burning need for it21:06
sarnoldash_worksi: so you could switch between dwm and i3 and evilwm and fvwm2 all you want, but gnome-shell is funny, I think you'd have trouble doing that21:06
ash_worksiI see21:06
ash_worksiwhat is "plasma" ?21:06
ash_worksiKDE plasma that is21:06
ash_worksialso, is dwm the default wm for any DE? and is DE ubuntu specific? (does Arch linux not have the term?)21:07
sarnoldDE long predates ubuntu21:08
sarnoldI'm not entirely sure what plasma is21:08
ash_worksias for dwm default?21:08
sarnoldI bet most of the DEs on http://www.xwinman.org/otherdesktops.php haven't updated since ubuntu was started :)21:09
ash_worksialso what is xterm exactly? the baked in terminal for x11 machines?21:09
sarnoldI'd be surprised if any distribution uses dwm as a default -- you have to recompile it in order to make any configuration changes, which really limits its use :)21:09
ash_worksiI see21:10
sarnoldxterm has a crazy history https://invisible-island.net/xterm/#history21:10
ash_worksidoes that history expect the reader to know what xterm is?21:10
sarnolda bit ,yeah21:10
ash_worksiI've seen21:10
ash_worksiI've seen the term 'ncurses' thrown around21:11
daftykinstime for some self-study21:18
daftykinsso many questions ;)21:18
=== acheronuk is now known as RikMills
ducasseash_worksi: aiui plasma is the new name for the kde desktop, kde is the project now iirc21:25
daftykinsyeah that makes sense21:26
ash_worksiso.... kde has other projects other than the plasma DE?21:27
sarnoldhundreds :) https://apps.kde.org/21:28
Bashing-omash_worksi: ^^ 2) see kde.org .21:29
ducasseash_worksi: i just have to ask, do you try to find the answer yourself before asking us?21:29
daftykinsash_worksi: *knock knock*21:35
ash_worksisorry, sometimes, it depends how much knowledge I have before hand or how convenient I think it is for other to tell me21:36
ducasse'what is xterm' is as quick to do a search on as it is to ask us, but doesn't require us to repeat what is already out there21:37
ash_worksigenerally, I don't refrain from yes/no questions and the goal is to narrow the scope of investment into what something is21:37
ash_worksiducasse: that's true21:37
daftykinsyes i imagine it's much more convenient to take advantage of others21:38
ducasseif this was a support issue i wouldn't mind, but when learning what something and how it works there is no substitute for doing your own research21:39
ash_worksiI apologize if I come off abusive21:39
ducasse*what something is21:39
ash_worksiducasse: yes, I understand21:40
ducassei don't think it's abusive, i just think it's more appropriate to ask others when you can't find or don't understand the answers you find21:41
ducasse*can't find answers21:42
ducassedamn, typing21:42
ducasseash_worksi: btw, ncurses has nothing to do with the graphical environment, it's a library for creating dialogs etc in terminals21:44
ash_worksiducasse: thanks; I appreicate it21:49
ash_worksiappreciate* it21:51

Generated by irclog2html.py 2.7 by Marius Gedminas - find it at mg.pov.lt!