| lotuspsychje | good morning | 02:46 |
|---|---|---|
| ducasse | good morning | 07:30 |
| guiverc | mgedmin, :) @ crystal ball... | 11:13 |
| lotuspsychje | trolls cough cough | 11:13 |
| mgedmin | the weirdest wayland-vs-xorg bug I had was when <Super> didn't work in xorg sessions when using a non-primary keyboard layout in gnome 3.something | 11:16 |
| lotuspsychje | been a while since i tested wayland | 11:17 |
| lotuspsychje | but seen an article this week they named xorg as abandonware | 11:17 |
| mgedmin | I saw the discussion about that article on discourse | 11:17 |
| mgedmin | I wonder when ubuntu will try wayland-as-default again | 11:18 |
| mgedmin | probably not until after gnome-remote-desktop is properly integrated (AFAIU it's blocked on some MIR) | 11:18 |
| lotuspsychje | wasnt that predicted for 21.04? | 11:18 |
| mgedmin | well yes because clearly not 20.10 :) | 11:18 |
| mgedmin | life without snap'd apps is hard | 11:19 |
| lotuspsychje | https://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=XServer-Abandonware | 11:19 |
| lotuspsychje | was the article i saw passby | 11:19 |
| Perdurabo | hello IRC test | 16:52 |
| Perdurabo | do you see this | 16:52 |
| Perdurabo | ? | 16:53 |
| akem | Yeah. | 16:54 |
| daftykins | test failed | 16:54 |
| akem | It looks like pixels. | 16:54 |
| Perdurabo | haha :) | 16:56 |
| sarnold | pixels *everywhere* | 17:54 |
| ash_worksi | is sway akin to dwm ? | 19:10 |
| mgedmin | yes | 19:10 |
| ash_worksi | o/ mgedmin | 19:11 |
| mgedmin | a wayland compositor is like an X11 window manager merged with the X11 server into one process | 19:11 |
| ash_worksi | and i3 is also a compositor? | 19:11 |
| mgedmin | i3 is a window manager for X11 | 19:11 |
| ash_worksi | but i3 is an X compositor and sway is a wayland compositor? | 19:11 |
| Maik | ah you're already here. Cool | 19:11 |
| sarnold | sway is like X11 and dwm glued together into one process | 19:11 |
| sarnold | oh hah mgedmin already said it :0 | 19:11 |
| sarnold | :) | 19:11 |
| mgedmin | on X11 the X server, the window manager, and the compositor could be three separate programs | 19:11 |
| mgedmin | anyone remember xcompmgr? | 19:12 |
| mgedmin | the compositor and the window manager were often combined into one program | 19:12 |
| ash_worksi | so, for 18 (i know, I should upgrade) what are the defaults for all three? | 19:12 |
| mgedmin | 18.04? you have a gnome desktop on Xorg by default | 19:13 |
| ash_worksi | gnome in this case is... | 19:13 |
| mgedmin | this means gnome-shell is the window manager and compositor, and Xorg is the X11 server | 19:13 |
| ash_worksi | okay, so does "DE" encompass all of this? | 19:13 |
| mgedmin | gnome is a desktop environment, which is a collection of programs that include the window manager, a settings program, a file manager, a bunch of applications, ... | 19:14 |
| ash_worksi | so, "gnome" is the collection of all the prepackaged programs or just a subset of ones that come with the ubuntu distro/ | 19:14 |
| ash_worksi | ?* | 19:14 |
| mgedmin | ubuntu includes more things than gnome, if I understood your question correctly | 19:15 |
| ash_worksi | so is gnome abstract; like a set of programs but this doesn't imply an architecture that requires some set of programs? (for example, if I have a "gnome DE" then is sway an incompatible application? {not to say that the system could not be changed to fit compatibility}) | 19:17 |
| mgedmin | gnome is a concrete project with concrete programs, and sway is not part of it | 19:20 |
| mgedmin | https://www.gnome.org/ | 19:20 |
| ash_worksi | mgedmin: that's not what i mean | 19:20 |
| ash_worksi | I mean to say, suppose you uninsteall the default wm for gnome and install a different one; is it no longer gnome? is that not possible to begin with? | 19:20 |
| mgedmin | it used to be possible, but I don't know if it still is? gnome's components are pretty interdependent | 19:21 |
| ducasse | under wayland you can't do that, with x11 you might be able to | 19:21 |
| ash_worksi | so what is the DE that supports wayland? | 19:22 |
| ducasse | gnome runs under wayland | 19:24 |
| ducasse | and x11 | 19:24 |
| ash_worksi | like, one or the other | 19:25 |
| ash_worksi | right? | 19:25 |
| ducasse | yes | 19:26 |
| Maik | KDE is working on making plasma run on wayland too | 19:26 |
| ash_worksi | there are... so many thing things @_@ | 19:27 |
| ash_worksi | so do ubuntu flavors just dictate what 3rd party software comes prepackaged? (eg firefox?) | 19:28 |
| ash_worksi | I mean eg, xubuntu | 19:28 |
| sarnold | ash_worksi: yes, the flavours get to set their own seeds | 19:28 |
| ash_worksi | is ubuntu switching from x11 to wayland as a "concession" or a "progression" in people's minds? | 19:31 |
| sarnold | in my mind it's a concession; in a lot of other minds it's a progression :) | 19:31 |
| sarnold | we tried shipping wayland as the default in 17.10 and it didn't go great | 19:31 |
| sarnold | it's hopefully better now | 19:32 |
| ash_worksi | and that was, I guess using sway? | 19:32 |
| sarnold | but it feels like wayland folks went out of their way to make sure stuff that worked in X11 don't work in wayland | 19:32 |
| sarnold | no, sway is way too niche for a default choice | 19:32 |
| ash_worksi | hmm | 19:33 |
| sarnold | it was gnome but wayland | 19:33 |
| ash_worksi | so when people "make the switch"... are they usually scrapping gnome? | 19:33 |
| ash_worksi | switch from x11 to wayland I mean | 19:34 |
| daftykins | no you've just been told gnome runs on both | 19:34 |
| sarnold | some people do run sway | 19:34 |
| ash_worksi | daftykins: that doesn't contradict my statement | 19:34 |
| sarnold | but I bet more people run gnome on wayland than run sway | 19:35 |
| ash_worksi | oh sway is a full DE? | 19:35 |
| daftykins | then i have to ask why you'd think they'd change? also, why it matters now since Wayland's still not widely adopted | 19:35 |
| ash_worksi | daftykins: this is a new arena for me; I might ask stupid questsion | 19:35 |
| ash_worksi | questions* | 19:36 |
| daftykins | 'new' is in fact the theme here, too new to worry about :) | 19:36 |
| daftykins | excluding development years xD | 19:36 |
| ash_worksi | well, it's not just wayland, it's everything; there are a lot of moving parts I don't have a handle on | 19:36 |
| ducasse | ash_worksi: sway is basically i3 for wayland | 19:37 |
| ash_worksi | but yes, initially I came here because of a video of someone saying, "I'm impressed" when trying sway and me having no idea what was impressive about it.... at all | 19:37 |
| ash_worksi | ducasse: right but that didn't help because I was still differentiating i3 from dwm, for example | 19:38 |
| ash_worksi | and i did ask earlier if sway was akin to dwm, but it sounds more like it's akin to gnome | 19:38 |
| ducasse | ash_worksi: to a certain extent, you can use the same config file for sway as you did for i3, with minor changes | 19:39 |
| ducasse | sway is more like dwm than gnome, it's not a full de | 19:39 |
| ash_worksi | but they are technically different protocols (wayland vs x...11?...org?) | 19:39 |
| ducasse | yes, totally different | 19:40 |
| ash_worksi | so what DE does sway run in? | 19:40 |
| ducasse | none | 19:40 |
| ducasse | it's not a de, just a compositor. think of it as a wm | 19:40 |
| ash_worksi | I don't know that that helps, because I sort of think as wms as modular | 19:41 |
| ash_worksi | and that might be wrong | 19:41 |
| ash_worksi | it's all just an abstract hierarchy for me | 19:41 |
| ducasse | wayland doesn't use the term window manager, the wm is 'baked into' the compositor and display server | 19:41 |
| mgedmin | and x11 doesn't often use the term compositor because it's usually baked into the window manager | 19:42 |
| ash_worksi | wut | 19:42 |
| ash_worksi | OH "TERM" as in vocabulary! | 19:43 |
| mgedmin | yes :) | 19:43 |
| ash_worksi | I thought this was 'the "term window manager"' | 19:43 |
| ash_worksi | like xterm or something | 19:43 |
| mgedmin | wording is hard | 19:43 |
| * ash_worksi doesn't have a great grasp on this vocabulary | 19:43 | |
| ducasse | under x11, the display server, wm and compositor are often separate processes, under wayland they're all one | 19:44 |
| ash_worksi | so Ubuntu( gnome{x11 proto}(gnome-shell wm/compositor, Xorg X11 server, <...other stuff>) + apps like FF, TB, ...) ? | 19:47 |
| ducasse | sorry, i can't decipher that | 19:48 |
| ash_worksi | so Ubuntu is the combination of gnome (running on the x11 protocol) + apps; gnome is a DE which is a collection of the gnome-shell wm/compository, Xorg x11 server and other stuff | 19:49 |
| ash_worksi | is that right? | 19:50 |
| ducasse | well, x11 is not part of gnome, but a separate project. gnome runs on top of it. | 19:50 |
| ash_worksi | but the current distro of Ubuntu denotes that gnome is running "on top" of x11? | 19:51 |
| ash_worksi | (and x11 is indeed a protocol, right?) | 19:51 |
| ducasse | by default, yes | 19:51 |
| ash_worksi | and all flavors of ubuntu just change the apps that come with gnome, yes? | 19:51 |
| daftykins | no, they ditch gnome mostly :) | 19:52 |
| ash_worksi | and here I thought I had a handle on it :\ | 19:52 |
| daftykins | xubuntu? -> XFCE | 19:53 |
| daftykins | kubuntu? -> KDE | 19:53 |
| ash_worksi | do they all use x11? | 19:53 |
| ducasse | yes, but they're working on plasma for wayland | 19:54 |
| ash_worksi | and do they all use xorg for the server? | 19:54 |
| ducasse | you just asked that | 19:54 |
| ash_worksi | I was making a distinction between the "x11 server" and the "x11 protocol" | 19:54 |
| mgedmin | well, no, we told ash_worksi that x11 and xorg are different things | 19:54 |
| mgedmin | exactly | 19:54 |
| ash_worksi | sorry for questions that doen't make sense | 19:54 |
| mgedmin | x11 is the only protocol that xorg supports | 19:55 |
| mgedmin | there are almost no x11 servers that aren't xorg on linux land | 19:55 |
| mgedmin | there exist (or used to) x11 servers for other operating systems | 19:55 |
| daftykins | whilst one might be the server and one a protcol, i think people tend to use the terms synonymously due to that | 19:56 |
| mgedmin | so yes, all the linux desktop environments that use xorg use x11 | 19:56 |
| mgedmin | and people ofen use the terms interchangeably | 19:56 |
| ash_worksi | i see | 20:31 |
| ash_worksi | I have to take care of an accident | 20:31 |
| ash_worksi | but I appreciate all your help | 20:31 |
| ash_worksi | ducasse daftykins mgedmin ^ | 20:31 |
| ash_worksi | can I use gnome-shell wm and dwm interchangably? | 21:03 |
| ash_worksi | like, can you "hot swap" window managers? | 21:04 |
| sarnold | ash_worksi: you probably can't do that with gnome-shell | 21:05 |
| sarnold | ash_worksi: it used to be pretty common to be able to swap window managers at run time -- you'd just run something *else* as the 'magic process', and then you could kill, restart, run another, window manager all you wanted | 21:05 |
| ash_worksi | I am interested in dwm, but I currently don't have a burning need for it | 21:06 |
| sarnold | ash_worksi: so you could switch between dwm and i3 and evilwm and fvwm2 all you want, but gnome-shell is funny, I think you'd have trouble doing that | 21:06 |
| ash_worksi | I see | 21:06 |
| ash_worksi | what is "plasma" ? | 21:06 |
| ash_worksi | KDE plasma that is | 21:06 |
| ash_worksi | also, is dwm the default wm for any DE? and is DE ubuntu specific? (does Arch linux not have the term?) | 21:07 |
| sarnold | DE long predates ubuntu | 21:08 |
| sarnold | I'm not entirely sure what plasma is | 21:08 |
| ash_worksi | as for dwm default? | 21:08 |
| sarnold | I bet most of the DEs on http://www.xwinman.org/otherdesktops.php haven't updated since ubuntu was started :) | 21:09 |
| ash_worksi | also what is xterm exactly? the baked in terminal for x11 machines? | 21:09 |
| sarnold | I'd be surprised if any distribution uses dwm as a default -- you have to recompile it in order to make any configuration changes, which really limits its use :) | 21:09 |
| ash_worksi | I see | 21:10 |
| sarnold | xterm has a crazy history https://invisible-island.net/xterm/#history | 21:10 |
| ash_worksi | does that history expect the reader to know what xterm is? | 21:10 |
| sarnold | a bit ,yeah | 21:10 |
| ash_worksi | I've seen | 21:10 |
| ash_worksi | gr | 21:10 |
| ash_worksi | I've seen the term 'ncurses' thrown around | 21:11 |
| daftykins | time for some self-study | 21:18 |
| daftykins | so many questions ;) | 21:18 |
| === acheronuk is now known as RikMills | ||
| ducasse | ash_worksi: aiui plasma is the new name for the kde desktop, kde is the project now iirc | 21:25 |
| daftykins | yeah that makes sense | 21:26 |
| ash_worksi | so.... kde has other projects other than the plasma DE? | 21:27 |
| sarnold | hundreds :) https://apps.kde.org/ | 21:28 |
| Bashing-om | ash_worksi: ^^ 2) see kde.org . | 21:29 |
| ducasse | ash_worksi: i just have to ask, do you try to find the answer yourself before asking us? | 21:29 |
| daftykins | ash_worksi: *knock knock* | 21:35 |
| ash_worksi | sorry, sometimes, it depends how much knowledge I have before hand or how convenient I think it is for other to tell me | 21:36 |
| ducasse | 'what is xterm' is as quick to do a search on as it is to ask us, but doesn't require us to repeat what is already out there | 21:37 |
| ash_worksi | generally, I don't refrain from yes/no questions and the goal is to narrow the scope of investment into what something is | 21:37 |
| ash_worksi | ducasse: that's true | 21:37 |
| daftykins | yes i imagine it's much more convenient to take advantage of others | 21:38 |
| ducasse | if this was a support issue i wouldn't mind, but when learning what something and how it works there is no substitute for doing your own research | 21:39 |
| ash_worksi | I apologize if I come off abusive | 21:39 |
| ducasse | *what something is | 21:39 |
| ash_worksi | ducasse: yes, I understand | 21:40 |
| ducasse | i don't think it's abusive, i just think it's more appropriate to ask others when you can't find or don't understand the answers you find | 21:41 |
| ducasse | *can't find answers | 21:42 |
| ducasse | damn, typing | 21:42 |
| ducasse | ash_worksi: btw, ncurses has nothing to do with the graphical environment, it's a library for creating dialogs etc in terminals | 21:44 |
| ash_worksi | ducasse: thanks; I appreicate it | 21:49 |
| ash_worksi | appreciate* it | 21:51 |
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