[02:46] <lotuspsychje> good morning
[07:30] <ducasse> good morning
[11:13] <guiverc> mgedmin, :) @ crystal ball...
[11:13] <lotuspsychje> trolls cough cough
[11:16] <mgedmin> the weirdest wayland-vs-xorg bug I had was when <Super> didn't work in xorg sessions when using a non-primary keyboard layout in gnome 3.something
[11:17] <lotuspsychje> been a while since i tested wayland
[11:17] <lotuspsychje> but seen an article this week they named xorg as abandonware
[11:17] <mgedmin> I saw the discussion about that article on discourse
[11:18] <mgedmin> I wonder when ubuntu will try wayland-as-default again
[11:18] <mgedmin> probably not until after gnome-remote-desktop is properly integrated (AFAIU it's blocked on some MIR)
[11:18] <lotuspsychje> wasnt that predicted for 21.04?
[11:18] <mgedmin> well yes because clearly not 20.10 :)
[11:19] <mgedmin> life without snap'd apps is hard
[11:19] <lotuspsychje> https://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=XServer-Abandonware
[11:19] <lotuspsychje> was the article i saw passby
[16:52] <Perdurabo> hello IRC test
[16:52] <Perdurabo> do you see this
[16:53] <Perdurabo> ?
[16:54] <akem> Yeah.
[16:54] <daftykins> test failed
[16:54] <akem> It looks like pixels.
[16:56] <Perdurabo> haha :)
[17:54] <sarnold> pixels *everywhere*
[19:10] <ash_worksi> is sway akin to dwm ?
[19:10] <mgedmin> yes
[19:11] <ash_worksi> o/ mgedmin
[19:11] <mgedmin> a wayland compositor is like an X11 window manager merged with the X11 server into one process
[19:11] <ash_worksi> and i3 is also a compositor?
[19:11] <mgedmin> i3 is a window manager for X11
[19:11] <ash_worksi> but i3 is an X compositor and sway is a wayland compositor?
[19:11] <Maik> ah you're already here. Cool
[19:11] <sarnold> sway is like X11 and dwm glued together into one process
[19:11] <sarnold> oh hah mgedmin already said it :0
[19:11] <sarnold> :)
[19:11] <mgedmin> on X11 the X server, the window manager, and the compositor could be three separate programs
[19:12] <mgedmin> anyone remember xcompmgr?
[19:12] <mgedmin> the compositor and the window manager were often combined into one program
[19:12] <ash_worksi> so, for 18 (i know, I should upgrade) what are the defaults for all three?
[19:13] <mgedmin> 18.04?  you have a gnome desktop on Xorg by default
[19:13] <ash_worksi> gnome in this case is...
[19:13] <mgedmin> this means gnome-shell is the window manager and compositor, and Xorg is the X11 server
[19:13] <ash_worksi> okay, so does "DE" encompass all of this?
[19:14] <mgedmin> gnome is a desktop environment, which is a collection of programs that include the window manager, a settings program, a file manager, a bunch of applications, ...
[19:14] <ash_worksi> so, "gnome" is the collection of all the prepackaged programs or just a subset of ones that come with the ubuntu distro/
[19:14] <ash_worksi> ?*
[19:15] <mgedmin> ubuntu includes more things than gnome, if I understood your question correctly
[19:17] <ash_worksi> so is gnome abstract; like a set of programs but this doesn't imply an architecture that requires some set of programs? (for example, if I have a "gnome DE" then is sway an incompatible application? {not to say that the system could not be changed to fit compatibility})
[19:20] <mgedmin> gnome is a concrete project with concrete programs, and sway is not part of it
[19:20] <mgedmin> https://www.gnome.org/
[19:20] <ash_worksi> mgedmin: that's not what i mean
[19:20] <ash_worksi> I mean to say, suppose you uninsteall the default wm for gnome and install a different one; is it no longer gnome? is that not possible to begin with?
[19:21] <mgedmin> it used to be possible, but I don't know if it still is?  gnome's components are pretty interdependent
[19:21] <ducasse> under wayland you can't do that, with x11 you might be able to
[19:22] <ash_worksi> so what is the DE that supports wayland?
[19:24] <ducasse> gnome runs under wayland
[19:24] <ducasse> and x11
[19:25] <ash_worksi> like, one or the other
[19:25] <ash_worksi> right?
[19:26] <ducasse> yes
[19:26] <Maik> KDE is working on making plasma run on wayland too
[19:27] <ash_worksi> there are... so many thing things @_@
[19:28] <ash_worksi> so do ubuntu flavors just dictate what 3rd party software comes prepackaged? (eg firefox?)
[19:28] <ash_worksi> I mean eg, xubuntu
[19:28] <sarnold> ash_worksi: yes, the flavours get to set their own seeds
[19:31] <ash_worksi> is ubuntu switching from x11 to wayland as a "concession" or a "progression" in people's minds?
[19:31] <sarnold> in my mind it's a concession; in a lot of other minds it's a progression :)
[19:31] <sarnold> we tried shipping wayland as the default in 17.10 and it didn't go great
[19:32] <sarnold> it's hopefully better now
[19:32] <ash_worksi> and that was, I guess using sway?
[19:32] <sarnold> but it feels like wayland folks went out of their way to make sure stuff that worked in X11 don't work in wayland
[19:32] <sarnold> no, sway is way too niche for a default choice
[19:33] <ash_worksi> hmm
[19:33] <sarnold> it was gnome but wayland
[19:33] <ash_worksi> so when people "make the switch"... are they usually scrapping gnome?
[19:34] <ash_worksi> switch from x11 to wayland I mean
[19:34] <daftykins> no you've just been told gnome runs on both
[19:34] <sarnold> some people do run sway
[19:34] <ash_worksi> daftykins: that doesn't contradict my statement
[19:35] <sarnold> but I bet more people run gnome on wayland than run sway
[19:35] <ash_worksi> oh sway is a full DE?
[19:35] <daftykins> then i have to ask why you'd think they'd change? also, why it matters now since Wayland's still not widely adopted
[19:35] <ash_worksi> daftykins: this is a new arena for me; I might ask stupid questsion
[19:36] <ash_worksi> questions*
[19:36] <daftykins> 'new' is in fact the theme here, too new to worry about :)
[19:36] <daftykins> excluding development years xD
[19:36] <ash_worksi> well, it's not just wayland, it's everything; there are a lot of moving parts I don't have a handle on
[19:37] <ducasse> ash_worksi: sway is basically i3 for wayland
[19:37] <ash_worksi> but yes, initially I came here because of a video of someone saying, "I'm impressed" when trying sway and me having no idea what was impressive about it.... at all
[19:38] <ash_worksi> ducasse: right but that didn't help because I was still differentiating i3 from dwm, for example
[19:38] <ash_worksi> and i did ask earlier if sway was akin to dwm, but it sounds more like it's akin to gnome
[19:39] <ducasse> ash_worksi: to a certain extent, you can use the same config file for sway as you did for i3, with minor changes
[19:39] <ducasse> sway is more like dwm than gnome, it's not a full de
[19:39] <ash_worksi> but they are technically different protocols (wayland vs x...11?...org?)
[19:40] <ducasse> yes, totally different
[19:40] <ash_worksi> so what DE does sway run in?
[19:40] <ducasse> none
[19:40] <ducasse> it's not a de, just a compositor. think of it as a wm
[19:41] <ash_worksi> I don't know that that helps, because I sort of think as wms as modular
[19:41] <ash_worksi> and that might be wrong
[19:41] <ash_worksi> it's all just an abstract hierarchy for me
[19:41] <ducasse> wayland doesn't use the term window manager, the wm is 'baked into' the compositor and display server
[19:42] <mgedmin> and x11 doesn't often use the term compositor because it's usually baked into the window manager
[19:42] <ash_worksi> wut
[19:43] <ash_worksi> OH "TERM" as in vocabulary!
[19:43] <mgedmin> yes :)
[19:43] <ash_worksi> I thought this was 'the "term window manager"'
[19:43] <ash_worksi> like xterm or something
[19:43] <mgedmin> wording is hard
[19:43]  * ash_worksi doesn't have a great grasp on this vocabulary
[19:44] <ducasse> under x11, the display server, wm and compositor are often separate processes, under wayland they're all one
[19:47] <ash_worksi> so Ubuntu( gnome{x11 proto}(gnome-shell wm/compositor, Xorg X11 server, <...other stuff>) + apps like FF, TB, ...) ?
[19:48] <ducasse> sorry, i can't decipher that
[19:49] <ash_worksi> so Ubuntu is the combination of gnome (running on the x11 protocol) + apps; gnome is a DE which is a collection of the gnome-shell wm/compository, Xorg x11 server and other stuff
[19:50] <ash_worksi> is that right?
[19:50] <ducasse> well, x11 is not part of gnome, but a separate project. gnome runs on top of it.
[19:51] <ash_worksi> but the current distro of Ubuntu denotes that gnome is running "on top" of x11?
[19:51] <ash_worksi> (and x11 is indeed a protocol, right?)
[19:51] <ducasse> by default, yes
[19:51] <ash_worksi> and all flavors of ubuntu just change the apps that come with gnome, yes?
[19:52] <daftykins> no, they ditch gnome mostly :)
[19:52] <ash_worksi> and here I thought I had a handle on it :\
[19:53] <daftykins> xubuntu? -> XFCE
[19:53] <daftykins> kubuntu? -> KDE
[19:53] <ash_worksi> do they all use x11?
[19:54] <ducasse> yes, but they're working on plasma for wayland
[19:54] <ash_worksi> and do they all use xorg for the server?
[19:54] <ducasse> you just asked that
[19:54] <ash_worksi> I was making a distinction between the "x11 server" and the "x11 protocol"
[19:54] <mgedmin> well, no, we told ash_worksi that x11 and xorg are different things
[19:54] <mgedmin> exactly
[19:54] <ash_worksi> sorry for questions that doen't make sense
[19:55] <mgedmin> x11 is the only protocol that xorg supports
[19:55] <mgedmin> there are almost no x11 servers that aren't xorg on linux land
[19:55] <mgedmin> there exist (or used to) x11 servers for other operating systems
[19:56] <daftykins> whilst one might be the server and one a protcol, i think people tend to use the terms synonymously due to that
[19:56] <mgedmin> so yes, all the linux desktop environments that use xorg use x11
[19:56] <mgedmin> and people ofen use the terms interchangeably
[20:31] <ash_worksi> i see
[20:31] <ash_worksi> I have to take care of an accident
[20:31] <ash_worksi> but I appreciate all your help
[20:31] <ash_worksi> ducasse  daftykins mgedmin ^
[21:03] <ash_worksi> can I use gnome-shell wm and dwm interchangably?
[21:04] <ash_worksi> like, can you "hot swap" window managers?
[21:05] <sarnold> ash_worksi: you probably can't do that with gnome-shell
[21:05] <sarnold> ash_worksi: it used to be pretty common to be able to swap window managers at run time -- you'd just run something *else* as the 'magic process', and then you could kill, restart, run another, window manager all you wanted
[21:06] <ash_worksi> I am interested in dwm, but I currently don't have a burning need for it
[21:06] <sarnold> ash_worksi: so you could switch between dwm and i3 and evilwm and fvwm2 all you want, but gnome-shell is funny, I think you'd have trouble doing that
[21:06] <ash_worksi> I see
[21:06] <ash_worksi> what is "plasma" ?
[21:06] <ash_worksi> KDE plasma that is
[21:07] <ash_worksi> also, is dwm the default wm for any DE? and is DE ubuntu specific? (does Arch linux not have the term?)
[21:08] <sarnold> DE long predates ubuntu
[21:08] <sarnold> I'm not entirely sure what plasma is
[21:08] <ash_worksi> as for dwm default?
[21:09] <sarnold> I bet most of the DEs on http://www.xwinman.org/otherdesktops.php haven't updated since ubuntu was started :)
[21:09] <ash_worksi> also what is xterm exactly? the baked in terminal for x11 machines?
[21:09] <sarnold> I'd be surprised if any distribution uses dwm as a default -- you have to recompile it in order to make any configuration changes, which really limits its use :)
[21:10] <ash_worksi> I see
[21:10] <sarnold> xterm has a crazy history https://invisible-island.net/xterm/#history
[21:10] <ash_worksi> does that history expect the reader to know what xterm is?
[21:10] <sarnold> a bit ,yeah
[21:10] <ash_worksi> I've seen
[21:10] <ash_worksi> gr
[21:11] <ash_worksi> I've seen the term 'ncurses' thrown around
[21:18] <daftykins> time for some self-study
[21:18] <daftykins> so many questions ;)
[21:25] <ducasse> ash_worksi: aiui plasma is the new name for the kde desktop, kde is the project now iirc
[21:26] <daftykins> yeah that makes sense
[21:27] <ash_worksi> so.... kde has other projects other than the plasma DE?
[21:28] <sarnold> hundreds :) https://apps.kde.org/
[21:29] <Bashing-om> ash_worksi: ^^ 2) see kde.org .
[21:29] <ducasse> ash_worksi: i just have to ask, do you try to find the answer yourself before asking us?
[21:35] <daftykins> ash_worksi: *knock knock*
[21:36] <ash_worksi> sorry, sometimes, it depends how much knowledge I have before hand or how convenient I think it is for other to tell me
[21:37] <ducasse> 'what is xterm' is as quick to do a search on as it is to ask us, but doesn't require us to repeat what is already out there
[21:37] <ash_worksi> generally, I don't refrain from yes/no questions and the goal is to narrow the scope of investment into what something is
[21:37] <ash_worksi> ducasse: that's true
[21:38] <daftykins> yes i imagine it's much more convenient to take advantage of others
[21:39] <ducasse> if this was a support issue i wouldn't mind, but when learning what something and how it works there is no substitute for doing your own research
[21:39] <ash_worksi> I apologize if I come off abusive
[21:39] <ducasse> *what something is
[21:40] <ash_worksi> ducasse: yes, I understand
[21:41] <ducasse> i don't think it's abusive, i just think it's more appropriate to ask others when you can't find or don't understand the answers you find
[21:42] <ducasse> *can't find answers
[21:42] <ducasse> damn, typing
[21:44] <ducasse> ash_worksi: btw, ncurses has nothing to do with the graphical environment, it's a library for creating dialogs etc in terminals
[21:49] <ash_worksi> ducasse: thanks; I appreicate it
[21:51] <ash_worksi> appreciate* it