[02:46] good morning [07:30] good morning [11:13] mgedmin, :) @ crystal ball... [11:13] trolls cough cough [11:16] the weirdest wayland-vs-xorg bug I had was when didn't work in xorg sessions when using a non-primary keyboard layout in gnome 3.something [11:17] been a while since i tested wayland [11:17] but seen an article this week they named xorg as abandonware [11:17] I saw the discussion about that article on discourse [11:18] I wonder when ubuntu will try wayland-as-default again [11:18] probably not until after gnome-remote-desktop is properly integrated (AFAIU it's blocked on some MIR) [11:18] wasnt that predicted for 21.04? [11:18] well yes because clearly not 20.10 :) [11:19] life without snap'd apps is hard [11:19] https://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=XServer-Abandonware [11:19] was the article i saw passby [16:52] hello IRC test [16:52] do you see this [16:53] ? [16:54] Yeah. [16:54] test failed [16:54] It looks like pixels. [16:56] haha :) [17:54] pixels *everywhere* [19:10] is sway akin to dwm ? [19:10] yes [19:11] o/ mgedmin [19:11] a wayland compositor is like an X11 window manager merged with the X11 server into one process [19:11] and i3 is also a compositor? [19:11] i3 is a window manager for X11 [19:11] but i3 is an X compositor and sway is a wayland compositor? [19:11] ah you're already here. Cool [19:11] sway is like X11 and dwm glued together into one process [19:11] oh hah mgedmin already said it :0 [19:11] :) [19:11] on X11 the X server, the window manager, and the compositor could be three separate programs [19:12] anyone remember xcompmgr? [19:12] the compositor and the window manager were often combined into one program [19:12] so, for 18 (i know, I should upgrade) what are the defaults for all three? [19:13] 18.04? you have a gnome desktop on Xorg by default [19:13] gnome in this case is... [19:13] this means gnome-shell is the window manager and compositor, and Xorg is the X11 server [19:13] okay, so does "DE" encompass all of this? [19:14] gnome is a desktop environment, which is a collection of programs that include the window manager, a settings program, a file manager, a bunch of applications, ... [19:14] so, "gnome" is the collection of all the prepackaged programs or just a subset of ones that come with the ubuntu distro/ [19:14] ?* [19:15] ubuntu includes more things than gnome, if I understood your question correctly [19:17] so is gnome abstract; like a set of programs but this doesn't imply an architecture that requires some set of programs? (for example, if I have a "gnome DE" then is sway an incompatible application? {not to say that the system could not be changed to fit compatibility}) [19:20] gnome is a concrete project with concrete programs, and sway is not part of it [19:20] https://www.gnome.org/ [19:20] mgedmin: that's not what i mean [19:20] I mean to say, suppose you uninsteall the default wm for gnome and install a different one; is it no longer gnome? is that not possible to begin with? [19:21] it used to be possible, but I don't know if it still is? gnome's components are pretty interdependent [19:21] under wayland you can't do that, with x11 you might be able to [19:22] so what is the DE that supports wayland? [19:24] gnome runs under wayland [19:24] and x11 [19:25] like, one or the other [19:25] right? [19:26] yes [19:26] KDE is working on making plasma run on wayland too [19:27] there are... so many thing things @_@ [19:28] so do ubuntu flavors just dictate what 3rd party software comes prepackaged? (eg firefox?) [19:28] I mean eg, xubuntu [19:28] ash_worksi: yes, the flavours get to set their own seeds [19:31] is ubuntu switching from x11 to wayland as a "concession" or a "progression" in people's minds? [19:31] in my mind it's a concession; in a lot of other minds it's a progression :) [19:31] we tried shipping wayland as the default in 17.10 and it didn't go great [19:32] it's hopefully better now [19:32] and that was, I guess using sway? [19:32] but it feels like wayland folks went out of their way to make sure stuff that worked in X11 don't work in wayland [19:32] no, sway is way too niche for a default choice [19:33] hmm [19:33] it was gnome but wayland [19:33] so when people "make the switch"... are they usually scrapping gnome? [19:34] switch from x11 to wayland I mean [19:34] no you've just been told gnome runs on both [19:34] some people do run sway [19:34] daftykins: that doesn't contradict my statement [19:35] but I bet more people run gnome on wayland than run sway [19:35] oh sway is a full DE? [19:35] then i have to ask why you'd think they'd change? also, why it matters now since Wayland's still not widely adopted [19:35] daftykins: this is a new arena for me; I might ask stupid questsion [19:36] questions* [19:36] 'new' is in fact the theme here, too new to worry about :) [19:36] excluding development years xD [19:36] well, it's not just wayland, it's everything; there are a lot of moving parts I don't have a handle on [19:37] ash_worksi: sway is basically i3 for wayland [19:37] but yes, initially I came here because of a video of someone saying, "I'm impressed" when trying sway and me having no idea what was impressive about it.... at all [19:38] ducasse: right but that didn't help because I was still differentiating i3 from dwm, for example [19:38] and i did ask earlier if sway was akin to dwm, but it sounds more like it's akin to gnome [19:39] ash_worksi: to a certain extent, you can use the same config file for sway as you did for i3, with minor changes [19:39] sway is more like dwm than gnome, it's not a full de [19:39] but they are technically different protocols (wayland vs x...11?...org?) [19:40] yes, totally different [19:40] so what DE does sway run in? [19:40] none [19:40] it's not a de, just a compositor. think of it as a wm [19:41] I don't know that that helps, because I sort of think as wms as modular [19:41] and that might be wrong [19:41] it's all just an abstract hierarchy for me [19:41] wayland doesn't use the term window manager, the wm is 'baked into' the compositor and display server [19:42] and x11 doesn't often use the term compositor because it's usually baked into the window manager [19:42] wut [19:43] OH "TERM" as in vocabulary! [19:43] yes :) [19:43] I thought this was 'the "term window manager"' [19:43] like xterm or something [19:43] wording is hard [19:43] * ash_worksi doesn't have a great grasp on this vocabulary [19:44] under x11, the display server, wm and compositor are often separate processes, under wayland they're all one [19:47] so Ubuntu( gnome{x11 proto}(gnome-shell wm/compositor, Xorg X11 server, <...other stuff>) + apps like FF, TB, ...) ? [19:48] sorry, i can't decipher that [19:49] so Ubuntu is the combination of gnome (running on the x11 protocol) + apps; gnome is a DE which is a collection of the gnome-shell wm/compository, Xorg x11 server and other stuff [19:50] is that right? [19:50] well, x11 is not part of gnome, but a separate project. gnome runs on top of it. [19:51] but the current distro of Ubuntu denotes that gnome is running "on top" of x11? [19:51] (and x11 is indeed a protocol, right?) [19:51] by default, yes [19:51] and all flavors of ubuntu just change the apps that come with gnome, yes? [19:52] no, they ditch gnome mostly :) [19:52] and here I thought I had a handle on it :\ [19:53] xubuntu? -> XFCE [19:53] kubuntu? -> KDE [19:53] do they all use x11? [19:54] yes, but they're working on plasma for wayland [19:54] and do they all use xorg for the server? [19:54] you just asked that [19:54] I was making a distinction between the "x11 server" and the "x11 protocol" [19:54] well, no, we told ash_worksi that x11 and xorg are different things [19:54] exactly [19:54] sorry for questions that doen't make sense [19:55] x11 is the only protocol that xorg supports [19:55] there are almost no x11 servers that aren't xorg on linux land [19:55] there exist (or used to) x11 servers for other operating systems [19:56] whilst one might be the server and one a protcol, i think people tend to use the terms synonymously due to that [19:56] so yes, all the linux desktop environments that use xorg use x11 [19:56] and people ofen use the terms interchangeably [20:31] i see [20:31] I have to take care of an accident [20:31] but I appreciate all your help [20:31] ducasse daftykins mgedmin ^ [21:03] can I use gnome-shell wm and dwm interchangably? [21:04] like, can you "hot swap" window managers? [21:05] ash_worksi: you probably can't do that with gnome-shell [21:05] ash_worksi: it used to be pretty common to be able to swap window managers at run time -- you'd just run something *else* as the 'magic process', and then you could kill, restart, run another, window manager all you wanted [21:06] I am interested in dwm, but I currently don't have a burning need for it [21:06] ash_worksi: so you could switch between dwm and i3 and evilwm and fvwm2 all you want, but gnome-shell is funny, I think you'd have trouble doing that [21:06] I see [21:06] what is "plasma" ? [21:06] KDE plasma that is [21:07] also, is dwm the default wm for any DE? and is DE ubuntu specific? (does Arch linux not have the term?) [21:08] DE long predates ubuntu [21:08] I'm not entirely sure what plasma is [21:08] as for dwm default? [21:09] I bet most of the DEs on http://www.xwinman.org/otherdesktops.php haven't updated since ubuntu was started :) [21:09] also what is xterm exactly? the baked in terminal for x11 machines? [21:09] I'd be surprised if any distribution uses dwm as a default -- you have to recompile it in order to make any configuration changes, which really limits its use :) [21:10] I see [21:10] xterm has a crazy history https://invisible-island.net/xterm/#history [21:10] does that history expect the reader to know what xterm is? [21:10] a bit ,yeah [21:10] I've seen [21:10] gr [21:11] I've seen the term 'ncurses' thrown around [21:18] time for some self-study [21:18] so many questions ;) === acheronuk is now known as RikMills [21:25] ash_worksi: aiui plasma is the new name for the kde desktop, kde is the project now iirc [21:26] yeah that makes sense [21:27] so.... kde has other projects other than the plasma DE? [21:28] hundreds :) https://apps.kde.org/ [21:29] ash_worksi: ^^ 2) see kde.org . [21:29] ash_worksi: i just have to ask, do you try to find the answer yourself before asking us? [21:35] ash_worksi: *knock knock* [21:36] sorry, sometimes, it depends how much knowledge I have before hand or how convenient I think it is for other to tell me [21:37] 'what is xterm' is as quick to do a search on as it is to ask us, but doesn't require us to repeat what is already out there [21:37] generally, I don't refrain from yes/no questions and the goal is to narrow the scope of investment into what something is [21:37] ducasse: that's true [21:38] yes i imagine it's much more convenient to take advantage of others [21:39] if this was a support issue i wouldn't mind, but when learning what something and how it works there is no substitute for doing your own research [21:39] I apologize if I come off abusive [21:39] *what something is [21:40] ducasse: yes, I understand [21:41] i don't think it's abusive, i just think it's more appropriate to ask others when you can't find or don't understand the answers you find [21:42] *can't find answers [21:42] damn, typing [21:44] ash_worksi: btw, ncurses has nothing to do with the graphical environment, it's a library for creating dialogs etc in terminals [21:49] ducasse: thanks; I appreicate it [21:51] appreciate* it