callmepkwugood morning01:44
jameshhi callmepkwu 01:53
callmepkwuhey jamesh 01:54
dufluHi callmepkwu, jamesh 01:58
callmepkwuhey duflu 02:22
seb128goood morning desktopers06:22
jibelGood morning folks06:45
dufluMorning seb128 and jibel 06:58
oSoMoNgood morning desktoppers06:58
dufluand oSoMoN 06:58
oSoMoNhey duflu 06:58
jibelBonjour duflu oSoMoN seb128 07:02
oSoMoNsalut jibel, seb128 07:17
seb128hey duflu, jibel, oSoMoN , how are you?07:22
didrocksgood morning07:22
didrockshey seb128 07:22
seb128lut didrocks 07:22
oSoMoNsalut didrocks 07:30
oSoMoNseb128, I'm good, and you?07:30
didrockssalut oSoMoN 07:30
oSoMoNit was a short night, but I managed to rest well nevertheless07:30
seb128I'm alright, short night as well but I'm not feeling that rested!07:37
dufluseb128, hi sorry, my dear mum decided to drop in. Good. Hoe are you?07:50
dufluHow are you?07:51
dufluHi didrocks 07:51
didrockshey duflu 07:54
jibelseb128, I'm good, a bit depressed by the perspective a new lock down07:54
jibelSalut didrocks 07:55
didrocksis it still a perspective or an incoming reality? :)07:58
didrockswhen there is too much whispering about something, you can think that the leak is on purpose, to prepare us to the idea (but well, it was already anticipated from some days/weeks now, the question was just "when"?)07:59
jibelwhen you look at the numbers and the trends it seems hardly inevitable08:03
jibelI'll hole up in my cave for the next two month, and hibernate until spring08:04
=== cpaelzer__ is now known as cpaelzer
marcustomlinsonmorning callmepk jamesh duflu seb128 jibel oSoMoN didrocks and other desktoppers08:26
jibelBonjour marcustomlinson, how are you today?08:27
marcustomlinsonTIIIIIRRRREEEDDD, and you? ;)08:27
didrockshey marcustomlinson 08:27
jibelI'm doing well :)08:28
dufluHi marcustomlinson 08:28
marcustomlinsonthis daylight savings crap have thrown off the baby's sleep a bit so we're still getting up at 5 except it's 4 now :/08:28
duflujibel, if you do have a cave, that's pretty cool08:28
jibelI dug it in the 80s when the thread was a nuclear war, I didn't think it'd be useful for a biological attack08:29
marcustomlinsonare you being serious?08:29
oSoMoNgood morning marcustomlinson 08:39
seb128hey marcustomlinson, welcome to the club of tired men!08:41
marcustomlinsonthanks, I think... :P08:41
seb128though you win, we went from 6 to 508:42
jameshhi marcustomlinson 08:53
Laneyhello tired people09:04
dufluHello Laney09:06
marcustomlinsonhey Laney09:21
seb128hey Laney 10:05
Laneyyo duflu marcustomlinson seb128 10:07
popeyIs it documented somewhere obvious which applications have archive exceptions - like firefox - for keeping old Ubuntu stable releases up to date?10:39
mgedminpopey: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/StableReleaseUpdates#Documentation_for_Special_Cases ?10:43
mgedmin(which doesn't mention firefox ...)10:44
popeymgedmin yeah, i was on that page and couldnt find firefox10:44
Laneyfirefox updates are handled by the security team which doesn't need to follow the SRU process10:44
popeyis that documented somewhere?10:45
Laneynot sure if there's a doc which covers it10:45
Laneybut that's why it's not on the SRU page10:45
LaneyoSoMoN might know, otherwise I'd try the security team themselves10:45
seb128Laney, nice to see we got a reply on https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu-cdimage/+bug/1899632/comments/15 :-)10:45
ubot5Ubuntu bug 1899632 in Ubuntu CD Images "VMWare "Easy Install" not working in groovy" [Undecided,Invalid]10:45
Laneythey were responsive, good to see10:46
Laneyxnox: you might want to be the one to reply to that reply10:47
Laneyhardcoding it seems ok to me, or they could switch to parsing it from grub instead if they wanted10:47
xnoxLaney:  commented!10:59
LaneyI assume they modify that cmdline to preseed the stuff11:00
xnoxme too11:01
oSoMoNpopey, if this is documented publicly, I don't know where11:51
popeyOk! Thanks :)11:51
RikMillsoSoMoN popey: I expected to find it here? https://wiki.ubuntu.com/StableReleaseUpdates#Documentation_for_Special_Cases11:55
RikMillsmaybe that needs updating?11:55
oSoMoNit is implicitly documented here: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/UpdateProcedures#Releasing_an_update11:58
oSoMoNwhich is linked from https://wiki.ubuntu.com/StableReleaseUpdates#High-impact_bugs11:59
RikMillsah yes, as firefox updates are security in part nearly always12:00
Beretso is https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/gnome-shell/+bug/1825710 something we can get some attention on this cycle?12:42
ubot5Ubuntu bug 1825710 in gnome-shell (Ubuntu) "Remove "Application is ready" notification" [Wishlist,Triaged]12:42
Beretwishlist isn't an accurate importance designation on that one imo12:42
seb128Beret, we discussed that one some cycles ago, the situation didn't change. Also we defined our roadmap and already are over capacity so I doubt we are going to find cycles for that unless we trade something13:02
seb128Beret, is that creating any issue other than visual annoyance?13:03
mdeslaurdepression, anxiety, sudden urge to switch to macos13:04
seb128oSoMoN, bug #1901829 got some reports, unsure if that's worth rls tagging, wdyt?13:04
ubot5bug 1901829 in thunderbird (Ubuntu) "thunderbird fails to open, xml parse error" [Undecided,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/190182913:04
seb128mdeslaur, other things in GNOME are having the same effect though no? ;-)13:05
mdeslaurseb128: hehe :)13:07
seb128oSoMoN, is the messagingmenu extension supposed to still be around or is a local install leftover?13:08
mdeslaurseb128: like bug 1870956 ARGHHULKSMASH13:08
ubot5bug 1870956 in gnome-shell-extension-desktop-icons (Ubuntu) "Desktop Icons Remain Highlighted when Mouse Cursor Leaves Them via Taskbar" [Low,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/187095613:08
ograoh, i never noticed it needs to leave through the taskbar ... i always thought its a feature to show you "recently used" icons 😛13:09
Beretseb128, didn't change meaning it's expensive to fix because it's intended behavior?13:12
Beret(I'm trying to recall)13:12
seb128Beret, the feature is useful, if you start something that is going to take a minute to open and go read email, you get notified that it finally is ready to use13:13
BeretI disagree13:14
seb128unity was animating the launcher icon for that13:14
seb128GNOME doesn't have a launcher though13:14
Beretdo you have a non-gnome example of something that takes away my focus to say I can do something that I've asked the system to do already?13:15
seb128we have one so we could go back to do that instead of the animation, but then it's non trivial work13:15
Beretour conversation is coming back to me :)13:15
Beretmy opinion hasn't changed13:15
seb128Beret, users did seem to like having the feedback, at least in unity with the launcher animation, it's just that a notification might be not subtle enough13:21
Beretthe fundamental problem is that it isn't expected behavior13:22
seb128is it?13:22
Beretit's not a pattern that you see anywhere else13:22
Beretseb128, again - give me another example of an OS that does this13:22
Beretpeople have complained (both upstream and specifically with ubuntu) about the behavior13:23
kenvandinethis is something that drives me nuts13:24
seb128I've been using only Ubuntu for 15+ years so I don't know what other OSes do13:24
Beretthen let me help you, they don't do this13:25
seb128kenvandine, the feature or the fact that it wrongly displays it in cases where the app do get the focus?13:25
Beretthey don't assume they know better than the user13:25
kenvandinethe "feature"13:25
Beretit's a bug, not a feature :)13:25
kenvandineGNOME describes it as a feature13:25
BeretI'm aware13:25
BeretI've read the upstream bug13:25
kenvandineand i sort of understand the thinking... 13:25
seb128Beret, I don't feel like that's a valid angle, we don't aim at copying what other OSes do and I'm sure I could find you examples of things we do than no other OS do and where you think we are right to be different because we are better13:25
kenvandinebut in practice we shouldn't really see this13:26
seb128I still believe the issue people complain about is that it shows in cases where it shouldn't which is a bug13:26
kenvandinemy argument is if i clicked an icon to launch an app, then my intention is to raise it to the front13:26
Beretseb128, my point is that if you think through this design, it's broken and there is no external validation anywhere that lends credence to this being expected or normal behavior13:26
BeretI don't care about doing what others do, but I care about doing the right thing13:26
seb128Beret, would you agree to make the icon dance on the launcher like unity was or do you think that would be wrong?13:27
Beretthat's just fine13:27
Beretit doesn't get in my way and doesn't steal focus or tell me useless things13:27
Berethere's my fundamental problem13:27
seb128'steal focus' you mean mental focus, not actual input from keyboard right?13:27
Beretyou can't simultaneously tell me that I choose to launch an application and then that application is stealing focus13:28
Beretthat's you telling me that you know more than I do as the users13:28
Beretand that's wrong13:28
seb128that's not what it tells you13:28
Beretyou do realize it's focus-stealing prevention heuristics that are the problem right?13:28
seb128it's there to tell you that this chromium snap you started 45 seconds ago is finally ready to use so you can go back to it13:29
seb128you are not arguing that we should kill focus stealing prevention now?13:29
Beretno, I'm specifically arguing against the notificstions associated with it13:29
seb128kenvandine seems to argue against the focus stealing prevention13:30
kenvandinei just tested this scenario on fedora 3213:30
seb128Beret, don't get me wrong, I do think that it's currently buggy and I agree it's annoying13:30
kenvandineno notification and no focus stealing prevention13:31
seb128I just believe it's a bug, in most cases the app is quick enough to start and gets focus and there should be no notification13:31
kenvandinei deleted the chromium profile, so it would be slow to start13:31
kenvandineclicked the icon13:31
kenvandinefocused a terminal and started typing13:31
kenvandine30 seconds later chromium stole focus13:31
kenvandinewhile i was typing13:31
seb128wayland being buggy?13:32
kenvandinei didn't mind13:32
kenvandinebecause i had initiated the launch13:32
BeretI'm with ken13:32
seb128you sure would have if it was telegram that finally started and that you were typing your gpg passphrase on that command line13:32
seb128and you ended up sending your passphrase to the group telegram opened on13:33
kenvandineideally we should never run into this13:33
kenvandineas apps should launch quick enough :)13:33
seb128if they were we would not have that discussion13:33
kenvandineafter the first launch of chromium, i can't even manage to focus another window before it starts13:33
seb128real world is made of electron apps13:33
seb128stop leaving on a i7 ssd and join real world of our users, get an i3 with rotational disk :)13:34
kenvandinethose still exist? :-D13:34
kenvandineactually, this makes me wonder what happens under wayland on ubuntu13:34
* seb128 slaps kenvandine with a trout13:34
* kenvandine tests13:35
seb128sorry, old IRC habit :p13:35
kenvandineoh i remember :)13:35
ograwe should just go back to unity ... 13:36
kenvandinei did like what unity did 13:36
seb128Beret, anyway, sorry it turned into a discussion again. It does sound like it's creating more annoyance than being useful from the feedback we are getting so we should probably consider disable the feature for now, ideally we would fix the bug or better do the dock animation but it doesn't sound like we are finding the resources for that atm13:36
ograyes, it is superior in sooo many ways regarding usability13:37
seb128let's not start on that path13:37
ograyeah, i'm quiet now 🙂13:37
seb128it's making some people here sad when we go there13:37
ograwell, that include me ... 13:37
seb128not for the same reason though!13:38
kenvandinetested with wayland on focal13:38
ograas a user only indeed13:38
kenvandinefocus stealing prevention worked just like it does on X13:38
kenvandineso it's either broken or disabled on fedora-3213:38
seb128kenvandine, is fedora patching that out?13:38
kenvandinei doubt it13:39
seb128would be weird13:39
oSoMoNseb128, re bug #1901829, yes I think it's worth rls tagging, so I just did that, and I'm going to investigate a bit so we have more data to decide whether it's worth tracking in the next weekly meeting13:47
oSoMoNre messagingmenu extension, it's probably a leftover13:47
ubot5bug 1901829 in thunderbird (Ubuntu) "thunderbird fails to open, xml parse error" [Undecided,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/190182913:47
seb128oSoMoN, it does sound like to me that it's the extensions creating the problem, unsure how they ended up with having it still enabled though13:50
seb128it's not in the package anymore right?13:50
oSoMoNwait, it looks like it is14:03
oSoMoNhrm, that's not expected14:04
seb128it's not showing in my UI though and can't be enabled14:04
oSoMoNyeah, because it's not compatible with that version of thunderbird… so I wonder why thunderbird was trying to load it anyway for that user14:06
seb128there is also a duplicate14:06
seb128unless they have an old local version that didn't declare compatibility correctly?14:07
seb128hum, no, the error message is 'Error while loading 'jar:file:///usr/lib/thunderbird...414:07
seb128so the system one14:07
oSoMoNricotz, would you mind pushing your changes to the firefox-beta.* branches?14:29
oSoMoN(I just created the firefox.hirsute branch, and would like to do the same for the beta branch)14:30
oSoMoNseb128, bug #1901829 already has 3 duplicates, that's enough to be concerning, I'm looking into it right now14:36
ubot5bug 1901829 in thunderbird (Ubuntu) "thunderbird fails to open, xml parse error" [Undecided,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/190182914:36
ricotzoSoMoN, hi, please do it the other way around, push a copy of the current beta branch for groovy and merge back the relevant stable changes14:36
oSoMoNricotz, ok14:37
oSoMoNricotz, done: https://code.launchpad.net/~mozillateam/firefox/firefox-beta.hirsute14:42
seb128oSoMoN, do you understand thunderbird profiles handling? I just started current tb 78, added an email account (autoconfigured by tb) and I get this profiles.ini14:43
ricotzoSoMoN, thanks, any relevant stable changes for the other series?14:43
seb128oSoMoN, https://paste.ubuntu.com/p/77MRVmcvnw/14:43
seb128there is a 'default' which has Default=114:43
seb128and a 'default-rekease' 14:44
seb128which is the one in use it seems14:44
seb128(that's the one having its dir non empty)14:44
seb128why isn't it only one and why isn't Default=1 the default one?14:44
seb128oSoMoN, spoiler alert, it's what makes the apport hook fail to report profile info, which I noticed for a while and got annoyed enough by to decide to try to figure it out14:45
oSoMoNricotz, the xenial branch has this patch which can be merged back: https://bazaar.launchpad.net/~mozillateam/firefox/firefox.xenial/view/head:/debian/patches/silence-gtk-style-assertions.patch14:45
oSoMoNseb128, it seems to be a relatively recent change in firefox and thunderbird: https://support.mozilla.org/gl/questions/126407214:47
seb128oSoMoN, thanks, your google skills beat mine14:48
oSoMoNI'll add that to my linkedin profile14:48
seb128oSoMoN, I will make a patch to update the apport hook then, thanks!14:48
oSoMoNseb128, thanks, and if you don't mind please file a bug report for it, it will serve for SRUing the fix14:49
oSoMoNspeaking of which, I'm going to validate the SRU tracked by bug #190017014:51
ubot5bug 1900170 in chromium-browser (Ubuntu Focal) "apport hook looks for snap profile folder in the wrong place" [High,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/190017014:51
seb128oSoMoN, do you really need a SRU bug for each details, that's going to be part or 68 -> 78, I doubt they care about checking the details of the apport script?14:52
seb128I'm fine opening one if you prefer14:52
seb128(and G serie is going to be through security update as usual thunderbird right?)14:52
oSoMoNseb128, that's right, let's just skip the bug report14:52
hellsworthgood morning desktopers15:01
oSoMoNmorning hellsworth 15:01
hellsworthhi there oSoMoN !15:01
marcustomlinsonhey hellsworth15:30
hellsworthhey there marcustomlinson!16:25
oSoMoNseb128, I found the cause of bug #1901829, thanks to a French (of course!) forum post16:35
ubot5bug 1901829 in thunderbird (Ubuntu) "thunderbird fails to open, xml parse error" [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/190182916:35
oSoMoNpeople installing a language pack from addons.thunderbird.net instead of using the proper package16:36
oSoMoNat least there is a workaround which I'm going to document16:36
oSoMoNand I wonder whether we can distro-patch to make thunderbird more robust16:37
seb128oSoMoN, great16:42
marcustomlinsonoSoMoN: “If it weren't for the people, the god-damn people' said Finnerty, 'always getting tangled up in the machinery. If it weren't for them, the world would be an engineer's paradise.” - Kurt Vonnegut16:53
marcustomlinsonand with that... I’m out :D goodnight all17:00
oSoMoNgood night marcustomlinson :)17:07
luna_http://cdimage.ubuntu.com/daily-live/20201028/ no images build yet :(20:56

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