[01:44] <callmepkwu> good morning
[01:53] <jamesh> hi callmepkwu 
[01:54] <callmepkwu> hey jamesh 
[01:58] <duflu> Hi callmepkwu, jamesh 
[02:22] <callmepkwu> hey duflu 
[06:22] <seb128> goood morning desktopers
[06:45] <jibel> Good morning folks
[06:58] <duflu> Morning seb128 and jibel 
[06:58] <oSoMoN> good morning desktoppers
[06:58] <duflu> and oSoMoN 
[06:58] <oSoMoN> hey duflu 
[07:02] <jibel> Bonjour duflu oSoMoN seb128 
[07:17] <oSoMoN> salut jibel, seb128 
[07:22] <seb128> hey duflu, jibel, oSoMoN , how are you?
[07:22] <didrocks> good morning
[07:22] <didrocks> hey seb128 
[07:22] <seb128> lut didrocks 
[07:30] <oSoMoN> salut didrocks 
[07:30] <oSoMoN> seb128, I'm good, and you?
[07:30] <didrocks> salut oSoMoN 
[07:30] <oSoMoN> it was a short night, but I managed to rest well nevertheless
[07:37] <seb128> I'm alright, short night as well but I'm not feeling that rested!
[07:50] <duflu> seb128, hi sorry, my dear mum decided to drop in. Good. Hoe are you?
[07:51] <duflu> How are you?
[07:51] <duflu> Hi didrocks 
[07:54] <didrocks> hey duflu 
[07:54] <jibel> seb128, I'm good, a bit depressed by the perspective a new lock down
[07:55] <jibel> Salut didrocks 
[07:58] <didrocks> is it still a perspective or an incoming reality? :)
[07:59] <didrocks> when there is too much whispering about something, you can think that the leak is on purpose, to prepare us to the idea (but well, it was already anticipated from some days/weeks now, the question was just "when"?)
[08:03] <jibel> when you look at the numbers and the trends it seems hardly inevitable
[08:04] <jibel> I'll hole up in my cave for the next two month, and hibernate until spring
[08:26] <marcustomlinson> morning callmepk jamesh duflu seb128 jibel oSoMoN didrocks and other desktoppers
[08:27] <jibel> Bonjour marcustomlinson, how are you today?
[08:27] <marcustomlinson> TIIIIIRRRREEEDDD, and you? ;)
[08:27] <didrocks> hey marcustomlinson 
[08:28] <jibel> I'm doing well :)
[08:28] <duflu> Hi marcustomlinson 
[08:28] <marcustomlinson> this daylight savings crap have thrown off the baby's sleep a bit so we're still getting up at 5 except it's 4 now :/
[08:28] <duflu> jibel, if you do have a cave, that's pretty cool
[08:29] <jibel> I dug it in the 80s when the thread was a nuclear war, I didn't think it'd be useful for a biological attack
[08:29] <jibel> threat*
[08:29] <marcustomlinson> are you being serious?
[08:29] <jibel> nope
[08:29] <marcustomlinson> haha
[08:29] <jibel> j/k
[08:39] <oSoMoN> good morning marcustomlinson 
[08:41] <seb128> hey marcustomlinson, welcome to the club of tired men!
[08:41] <marcustomlinson> thanks, I think... :P
[08:42] <seb128> though you win, we went from 6 to 5
[08:53] <jamesh> hi marcustomlinson 
[09:04] <Laney> hello tired people
[09:06] <duflu> Hello Laney
[09:21] <marcustomlinson> hey Laney
[10:05] <seb128> hey Laney 
[10:07] <Laney> yo duflu marcustomlinson seb128 
[10:39] <popey> Is it documented somewhere obvious which applications have archive exceptions - like firefox - for keeping old Ubuntu stable releases up to date?
[10:43] <mgedmin> popey: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/StableReleaseUpdates#Documentation_for_Special_Cases ?
[10:44] <mgedmin> (which doesn't mention firefox ...)
[10:44] <popey> mgedmin yeah, i was on that page and couldnt find firefox
[10:44] <Laney> firefox updates are handled by the security team which doesn't need to follow the SRU process
[10:45] <popey> is that documented somewhere?
[10:45] <Laney> not sure if there's a doc which covers it
[10:45] <Laney> but that's why it's not on the SRU page
[10:45] <Laney> oSoMoN might know, otherwise I'd try the security team themselves
[10:45] <seb128> Laney, nice to see we got a reply on https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu-cdimage/+bug/1899632/comments/15 :-)
[10:46] <Laney> yep
[10:46] <Laney> they were responsive, good to see
[10:47] <Laney> xnox: you might want to be the one to reply to that reply
[10:47] <Laney> hardcoding it seems ok to me, or they could switch to parsing it from grub instead if they wanted
[10:59] <xnox> Laney:  commented!
[11:00] <Laney> merci
[11:00] <Laney> I assume they modify that cmdline to preseed the stuff
[11:01] <xnox> me too
[11:51] <oSoMoN> popey, if this is documented publicly, I don't know where
[11:51] <popey> Ok! Thanks :)
[11:55] <RikMills> oSoMoN popey: I expected to find it here? https://wiki.ubuntu.com/StableReleaseUpdates#Documentation_for_Special_Cases
[11:55] <RikMills> maybe that needs updating?
[11:58] <oSoMoN> it is implicitly documented here: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/UpdateProcedures#Releasing_an_update
[11:59] <oSoMoN> which is linked from https://wiki.ubuntu.com/StableReleaseUpdates#High-impact_bugs
[12:00] <RikMills> ah yes, as firefox updates are security in part nearly always
[12:42] <Beret> so is https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/gnome-shell/+bug/1825710 something we can get some attention on this cycle?
[12:42] <Beret> wishlist isn't an accurate importance designation on that one imo
[13:02] <seb128> Beret, we discussed that one some cycles ago, the situation didn't change. Also we defined our roadmap and already are over capacity so I doubt we are going to find cycles for that unless we trade something
[13:03] <seb128> Beret, is that creating any issue other than visual annoyance?
[13:04] <mdeslaur> depression, anxiety, sudden urge to switch to macos
[13:04] <seb128> oSoMoN, bug #1901829 got some reports, unsure if that's worth rls tagging, wdyt?
[13:05] <seb128> mdeslaur, other things in GNOME are having the same effect though no? ;-)
[13:07] <mdeslaur> seb128: hehe :)
[13:08] <seb128> oSoMoN, is the messagingmenu extension supposed to still be around or is a local install leftover?
[13:08] <mdeslaur> seb128: like bug 1870956 ARGHHULKSMASH
[13:09] <ogra> oh, i never noticed it needs to leave through the taskbar ... i always thought its a feature to show you "recently used" icons 😛
[13:12] <Beret> seb128, didn't change meaning it's expensive to fix because it's intended behavior?
[13:12] <Beret> (I'm trying to recall)
[13:13] <seb128> Beret, the feature is useful, if you start something that is going to take a minute to open and go read email, you get notified that it finally is ready to use
[13:14] <Beret> I disagree
[13:14] <seb128> unity was animating the launcher icon for that
[13:14] <seb128> GNOME doesn't have a launcher though
[13:15] <Beret> do you have a non-gnome example of something that takes away my focus to say I can do something that I've asked the system to do already?
[13:15] <seb128> we have one so we could go back to do that instead of the animation, but then it's non trivial work
[13:15] <Beret> our conversation is coming back to me :)
[13:15] <Beret> my opinion hasn't changed
[13:21] <seb128> Beret, users did seem to like having the feedback, at least in unity with the launcher animation, it's just that a notification might be not subtle enough
[13:22] <seb128> -not
[13:22] <Beret> the fundamental problem is that it isn't expected behavior
[13:22] <seb128> is it?
[13:22] <Beret> it's not a pattern that you see anywhere else
[13:22] <Beret> seb128, again - give me another example of an OS that does this
[13:23] <Beret> people have complained (both upstream and specifically with ubuntu) about the behavior
[13:24] <kenvandine> this is something that drives me nuts
[13:24] <Beret> yes
[13:24] <seb128> I've been using only Ubuntu for 15+ years so I don't know what other OSes do
[13:25] <Beret> then let me help you, they don't do this
[13:25] <seb128> kenvandine, the feature or the fact that it wrongly displays it in cases where the app do get the focus?
[13:25] <Beret> they don't assume they know better than the user
[13:25] <kenvandine> the "feature"
[13:25] <Beret> it's a bug, not a feature :)
[13:25] <kenvandine> GNOME describes it as a feature
[13:25] <Beret> I'm aware
[13:25] <Beret> I've read the upstream bug
[13:25] <kenvandine> and i sort of understand the thinking... 
[13:25] <seb128> Beret, I don't feel like that's a valid angle, we don't aim at copying what other OSes do and I'm sure I could find you examples of things we do than no other OS do and where you think we are right to be different because we are better
[13:26] <kenvandine> but in practice we shouldn't really see this
[13:26] <seb128> I still believe the issue people complain about is that it shows in cases where it shouldn't which is a bug
[13:26] <kenvandine> my argument is if i clicked an icon to launch an app, then my intention is to raise it to the front
[13:26] <Beret> seb128, my point is that if you think through this design, it's broken and there is no external validation anywhere that lends credence to this being expected or normal behavior
[13:26] <Beret> I don't care about doing what others do, but I care about doing the right thing
[13:27] <seb128> Beret, would you agree to make the icon dance on the launcher like unity was or do you think that would be wrong?
[13:27] <Beret> that's just fine
[13:27] <Beret> it doesn't get in my way and doesn't steal focus or tell me useless things
[13:27] <Beret> here's my fundamental problem
[13:27] <seb128> 'steal focus' you mean mental focus, not actual input from keyboard right?
[13:28] <Beret> you can't simultaneously tell me that I choose to launch an application and then that application is stealing focus
[13:28] <Beret> that's you telling me that you know more than I do as the users
[13:28] <Beret> and that's wrong
[13:28] <seb128> that's not what it tells you
[13:28] <Beret> um
[13:28] <Beret> you do realize it's focus-stealing prevention heuristics that are the problem right?
[13:29] <seb128> it's there to tell you that this chromium snap you started 45 seconds ago is finally ready to use so you can go back to it
[13:29] <Beret> https://gitlab.gnome.org/GNOME/gnome-shell/-/issues/358
[13:29] <seb128> you are not arguing that we should kill focus stealing prevention now?
[13:29] <Beret> no, I'm specifically arguing against the notificstions associated with it
[13:30] <seb128> right
[13:30] <seb128> kenvandine seems to argue against the focus stealing prevention
[13:30] <kenvandine> i just tested this scenario on fedora 32
[13:30] <seb128> Beret, don't get me wrong, I do think that it's currently buggy and I agree it's annoying
[13:31] <kenvandine> no notification and no focus stealing prevention
[13:31] <seb128> I just believe it's a bug, in most cases the app is quick enough to start and gets focus and there should be no notification
[13:31] <kenvandine> i deleted the chromium profile, so it would be slow to start
[13:31] <kenvandine> clicked the icon
[13:31] <kenvandine> focused a terminal and started typing
[13:31] <kenvandine> 30 seconds later chromium stole focus
[13:31] <kenvandine> while i was typing
[13:31] <seb128> shrug
[13:32] <seb128> wayland being buggy?
[13:32] <kenvandine> maybe
[13:32] <kenvandine> but
[13:32] <kenvandine> i didn't mind
[13:32] <kenvandine> because i had initiated the launch
[13:32] <Beret> I'm with ken
[13:32] <seb128> you sure would have if it was telegram that finally started and that you were typing your gpg passphrase on that command line
[13:33] <seb128> and you ended up sending your passphrase to the group telegram opened on
[13:33] <kenvandine> ideally we should never run into this
[13:33] <kenvandine> as apps should launch quick enough :)
[13:33] <seb128> if they were we would not have that discussion
[13:33] <kenvandine> after the first launch of chromium, i can't even manage to focus another window before it starts
[13:33] <seb128> real world is made of electron apps
[13:34] <seb128> stop leaving on a i7 ssd and join real world of our users, get an i3 with rotational disk :)
[13:34] <kenvandine> :)
[13:34] <seb128> living*
[13:34] <kenvandine> those still exist? :-D
[13:34] <kenvandine> actually, this makes me wonder what happens under wayland on ubuntu
[13:34]  * seb128 slaps kenvandine with a trout
[13:35] <kenvandine> lol
[13:35]  * kenvandine tests
[13:35] <seb128> sorry, old IRC habit :p
[13:35] <kenvandine> oh i remember :)
[13:35] <seb128> :-)
[13:36] <ogra> we should just go back to unity ... 
[13:36] <kenvandine> i did like what unity did 
[13:36] <seb128> Beret, anyway, sorry it turned into a discussion again. It does sound like it's creating more annoyance than being useful from the feedback we are getting so we should probably consider disable the feature for now, ideally we would fix the bug or better do the dock animation but it doesn't sound like we are finding the resources for that atm
[13:37] <ogra> yes, it is superior in sooo many ways regarding usability
[13:37] <seb128> let's not start on that path
[13:37] <ogra> yeah, i'm quiet now 🙂
[13:37] <seb128> it's making some people here sad when we go there
[13:37] <ogra> well, that include me ... 
[13:38] <ogra> *includes
[13:38] <seb128> not for the same reason though!
[13:38] <kenvandine> tested with wayland on focal
[13:38] <ogra> as a user only indeed
[13:38] <kenvandine> focus stealing prevention worked just like it does on X
[13:38] <kenvandine> so it's either broken or disabled on fedora-32
[13:38] <seb128> kenvandine, is fedora patching that out?
[13:39] <kenvandine> i doubt it
[13:39] <seb128> would be weird
[13:47] <oSoMoN> seb128, re bug #1901829, yes I think it's worth rls tagging, so I just did that, and I'm going to investigate a bit so we have more data to decide whether it's worth tracking in the next weekly meeting
[13:47] <oSoMoN> re messagingmenu extension, it's probably a leftover
[13:50] <seb128> oSoMoN, it does sound like to me that it's the extensions creating the problem, unsure how they ended up with having it still enabled though
[13:50] <seb128> it's not in the package anymore right?
[13:59] <oSoMoN> no
[14:03] <oSoMoN> wait, it looks like it is
[14:04] <oSoMoN> hrm, that's not expected
[14:04] <seb128> it's not showing in my UI though and can't be enabled
[14:06] <oSoMoN> yeah, because it's not compatible with that version of thunderbird… so I wonder why thunderbird was trying to load it anyway for that user
[14:06] <seb128> there is also a duplicate
[14:06] <seb128> weird
[14:07] <seb128> unless they have an old local version that didn't declare compatibility correctly?
[14:07] <seb128> hum, no, the error message is 'Error while loading 'jar:file:///usr/lib/thunderbird...4
[14:07] <seb128> '
[14:07] <seb128> so the system one
[14:29] <oSoMoN> ricotz, would you mind pushing your changes to the firefox-beta.* branches?
[14:30] <oSoMoN> (I just created the firefox.hirsute branch, and would like to do the same for the beta branch)
[14:36] <oSoMoN> seb128, bug #1901829 already has 3 duplicates, that's enough to be concerning, I'm looking into it right now
[14:36] <ricotz> oSoMoN, hi, please do it the other way around, push a copy of the current beta branch for groovy and merge back the relevant stable changes
[14:37] <oSoMoN> ricotz, ok
[14:42] <oSoMoN> ricotz, done: https://code.launchpad.net/~mozillateam/firefox/firefox-beta.hirsute
[14:43] <seb128> oSoMoN, do you understand thunderbird profiles handling? I just started current tb 78, added an email account (autoconfigured by tb) and I get this profiles.ini
[14:43] <ricotz> oSoMoN, thanks, any relevant stable changes for the other series?
[14:43] <seb128> oSoMoN, https://paste.ubuntu.com/p/77MRVmcvnw/
[14:43] <seb128> there is a 'default' which has Default=1
[14:44] <seb128> and a 'default-rekease' 
[14:44] <seb128> release
[14:44] <seb128> which is the one in use it seems
[14:44] <seb128> (that's the one having its dir non empty)
[14:44] <seb128> why isn't it only one and why isn't Default=1 the default one?
[14:45] <seb128> oSoMoN, spoiler alert, it's what makes the apport hook fail to report profile info, which I noticed for a while and got annoyed enough by to decide to try to figure it out
[14:45] <oSoMoN> ricotz, the xenial branch has this patch which can be merged back: https://bazaar.launchpad.net/~mozillateam/firefox/firefox.xenial/view/head:/debian/patches/silence-gtk-style-assertions.patch
[14:47] <oSoMoN> seb128, it seems to be a relatively recent change in firefox and thunderbird: https://support.mozilla.org/gl/questions/1264072
[14:48] <seb128> oSoMoN, thanks, your google skills beat mine
[14:48] <oSoMoN> I'll add that to my linkedin profile
[14:48] <seb128> :-)
[14:48] <seb128> oSoMoN, I will make a patch to update the apport hook then, thanks!
[14:49] <oSoMoN> seb128, thanks, and if you don't mind please file a bug report for it, it will serve for SRUing the fix
[14:51] <oSoMoN> speaking of which, I'm going to validate the SRU tracked by bug #1900170
[14:52] <seb128> oSoMoN, do you really need a SRU bug for each details, that's going to be part or 68 -> 78, I doubt they care about checking the details of the apport script?
[14:52] <seb128> I'm fine opening one if you prefer
[14:52] <seb128> (and G serie is going to be through security update as usual thunderbird right?)
[14:52] <oSoMoN> seb128, that's right, let's just skip the bug report
[14:53] <seb128> thx
[15:01] <hellsworth> good morning desktopers
[15:01] <oSoMoN> morning hellsworth 
[15:01] <hellsworth> hi there oSoMoN !
[15:30] <marcustomlinson> hey hellsworth
[16:25] <hellsworth> hey there marcustomlinson!
[16:35] <oSoMoN> seb128, I found the cause of bug #1901829, thanks to a French (of course!) forum post
[16:36] <oSoMoN> people installing a language pack from addons.thunderbird.net instead of using the proper package
[16:36] <oSoMoN> at least there is a workaround which I'm going to document
[16:37] <oSoMoN> and I wonder whether we can distro-patch to make thunderbird more robust
[16:42] <seb128> oSoMoN, great
[16:53] <marcustomlinson> oSoMoN: “If it weren't for the people, the god-damn people' said Finnerty, 'always getting tangled up in the machinery. If it weren't for them, the world would be an engineer's paradise.” - Kurt Vonnegut
[16:53] <marcustomlinson> :)
[17:00] <marcustomlinson> and with that... I’m out :D goodnight all
[17:07] <oSoMoN> good night marcustomlinson :)
[20:56] <luna_> http://cdimage.ubuntu.com/daily-live/20201028/ no images build yet :(