[01:40] <ubptgbot> Thomas was added by: Thomas
[04:51] <ubptgbot> Rana96GRG was added by: Rana96GRG
 (Video, 140s) https://irc.ubports.com/lZ7evOIX.mp4 Hello everybody)  … I need help. What if after installing applications in Libertina they do not start at all? Maybe you can fix it somehow? (I will attach a video to make it clear what the problem is)
 Sadly, some Libertine apps don't work on 16.04, and 15.04 is actually more stable for it, due to display server issues.
 @TartanSpartan [Sadly, some Libertine apps don't work on 16.04, and 15.04 is actually more stabl …], Is there an app known to work well with libertine? I never managed to run any app with it
 gedit works and nautilus
 but to me, libertine isn't really something to use for daily tasks
 perhaps once all switched to wayland and 20.04 then it'll be actually usable
 @Boris Mihailov [Is the torch in the indicator menu the cause for camera app to fail launch? Can' …], On my Xperia camera does launch AND I can use the torch from the indicator. Just not all camera functions are available yet. But I am not aware that this has got something to do with the torch.
 @Mister_Tails121 [<reply to media>], what is the device?
 if it is Android 9 based, it may be known (and fixable) issue
[06:43] <ubptgbot> ttdemartini was added by: ttdemartini
[07:00] <ubptgbot> mekas0 was added by: mekas0
[07:33] <ubptgbot> <taiebot taiebot> @cibersheep [I idid as it doesn't load any station. Do you need something?], I wanted the link to the app development website to report it but I think its being dealt with. Thanks
 @taiebot taiebot [I wanted the link to the app development website to report it but I think its be …], https://gitlab.com/cibersheep/flas/-/issues/22
[07:43] <gitbot> Flas issue 22 in flas "FLAS doesn't work under OTA-14" [Opened]
 This might be the one. I need to update the code to use the version 2 of the api
[08:18] <ubptgbot> <Boris Mihailov> @Danfro [On my Xperia camera does launch AND I can use the torch from the indicator. Just …], Got it. What I'm saying is that after using the torch from there, when I launch the camera, it's only black screen in the viewport.
 Still why ubuntu use android ota model (ro rootfs) and mir instead of wayland
 ota model brings stability, you really don't want to have apt issues when installing an app on the train
 and mir is a wayland compositor
 @rogieroudshoorn [ota model brings stability, you really don't want to have apt issues when instal …], it gives a bit of stability and takes much usefull things
 if i want to change android to something
 probably it must not be android
 and probably i want linux software
 no model is perfect for everyone - there's plenty of alternatives that do bring a traditional distro to a phone for those who want to install apache from the commandline (mobian, manjaro,postmarketOS).
 those will typically only run on the pinephone though
 postmarketOS has some mainlined original android devices, but i don't think they are daily driver ready
 @Boris Mihailov [Got it. What I'm saying is that after using the torch from there, when I launch …], Ouch, you are right. I can confirm, that after using the torch the screen stays blank. I will pass that on to the porter.
 @Lukapanio [Still why ubuntu use android ota model (ro rootfs) and mir instead of wayland], Wayland was not satisfying performance demands for mobile, in relation to CPU power and energy consumption it seems
[08:31] <ubptgbot> <Boris Mihailov> @Danfro [Ouch, you are right. I can confirm, that after using the torch the screen stays …], If it's of any help, my guesses are 2 things. Either indicator doesn't release the camera or it's because the broken video recording..?
 @Lukapanio [and probably i want linux software], You can want what you want, but reailty will bite you - mobile hardware is optimized for Android blobs :P
 @Boris Mihailov [If it's of any help, my guesses are 2 things. Either indicator doesn't release t …], Alfred hopefully knows more. He is planning some work regarding camera on Xperia X anyway. Lets see... Thanks for reporting.
[09:42] <ubptgbot> AndreyRaskovalov was added by: AndreyRaskovalov
 @Flohack [You can want what you want, but reailty will bite you - mobile hardware is optim …], stop. i am speaking about SOFTWARE not BLOBS
 libhybris is ok
 @Lukapanio [stop. i am speaking about SOFTWARE not BLOBS], well you cannot make software for hardware that has no documentation: Just saying the best free software did not help Canonical, you need hardware to put it on. THats why they chose Android phones and all the complicated way of the Android container. Pragmatic reasons
 @Flohack [well you cannot make software for hardware that has no documentation: Just sayin …], I will say that again. I am not Mis012 and i dont care is it mainline or libhybris. But i do care abot such software as office browser etc
 And BTW the OTA model has nothing to do with hardware being open or not
 @Flohack [And BTW the OTA model has nothing to do with hardware being open or not], Yes inddeed. But that model breaks linux on pone (makes it similar to android), it is not modular.
 @Flohack [And BTW the OTA model has nothing to do with hardware being open or not], And even OTA model dont force you to use RO
 @Lukapanio [Yes inddeed. But that model breaks linux on pone (makes it similar to android), …], Yes and for good reasons of stability and security. A phone is not a desktop. We dont want people to apt-get random stuff into it and then not being able to boot it anymore etc
 Hmm. A phone is a phone…
 @Lukapanio [And even OTA model dont force you to use RO], Well if you want to mess up your rootfs then do r/w ofc
 @Flohack [Yes and for good reasons of stability and security. A phone is not a desktop. We …], So if user install random stuff on PC and it cant boot it is ok
 I think it's a misconception that the RO filesystem is the cause why normal linux programs are not available on UT … it is a mix of many things like mir and old Ubuntu base.
 @Lukapanio [So if user install random stuff on PC and it cant boot it is ok], Its easier to recover ANd also on desktop you see a lot more packaged stuff todays
 If you install random stuff on phone, and cant boot it is wrong
 @Flohack [Its easier to recover ANd also on desktop you see a lot more packaged stuff toda …], Same stuff is packeged in ubuntus repos for arm so
 @Lukapanio [Same stuff is packeged in ubuntus repos for arm so], No sorry I mean containerized
 @Flohack [Its easier to recover ANd also on desktop you see a lot more packaged stuff toda …], About 1st, i dont think so. Restoring phone is easy
 Containers are much better so think about what lxc is doing, snap etc.
 @Lukapanio [About 1st, i dont think so. Restoring phone is easy], If you are a power user with a PC, yes.
 @Flohack [No sorry I mean containerized], Who forbids you to use snap on arm?
 We dont want to serve only a few 1000 geeks out there. Ubuntu Touch is for everyone, even your grandma
 Its ervery day, consumer-grade oriented. So no fancy apt-get for the users, sorry
 @Flohack [If you are a power user with a PC, yes.], pc yep, power user no. It is easier to use UT installer then install OS on pc
 you can still technically do most of the things you can do on a linix desktop. They just need extra steps in UT and at that point, you're a hardcore user anyway so it shpuld be fine for you. Most users don't care about those things.
 @Flohack [Its ervery day, consumer-grade oriented. So no fancy apt-get for the users, sorr …], If it is OS for my daily use i need apps, much of them
 @Lukapanio [If it is OS for my daily use i need apps, much of them], Yes so thats not a contradiction
 Apps not apt-getted arbitrary packages ^^
 @Lukapanio [pc yep, power user no. It is easier to use UT installer then install OS on pc], not when you're on the go and no PC nearby
 exactly
 I dont want to break my phone accidentially on the subway
 haha
 @Flohack [Yes so thats not a contradiction], So you are going to have > 10000 apps in openstore?
 @Lukapanio [So you are going to have > 10000 apps in openstore?], If someone writes them of course ^^ it works for iOS, it works for Android why not for us
 @Flohack [If someone writes them of course ^^ it works for iOS, it works for Android why n …], I will explain why not for you. iOS and Android were on the begining
 there was nothing else
 so they become popular
 app were written
 Yes and they succeeded because it was different to what a PC does
 a PC is inherently insecure still today
 No real confinement for applications
 apps using same data folders etc
 Lets get rid of this
 @NotKit [what is the device?], Redmi 7 (Android 9)
 @Flohack [Lets get rid of this], I will, but give me alternative
 @Lukapanio [I will, but give me alternative], Which one
 except android and iOS
 @Flohack [Which one], any
 There arent any becausse traditional desktop cannot be fixed anymore. Its a mess especially in Windows ^^
 @Lukapanio I don't get your argument actually. UT is not preventing you from remounting rootfs RW and installing packages
 @NotKit [@Lukapanio I don't get your argument actually. UT is not preventing you from rem …], Well it will conflict potentially with next OTA
 but do you really get much software to install this way?
 @Flohack [Well it will conflict potentially with next OTA], yes, but he can apt upgrade and update device parts manually
 Well its software you can do everything yes
 @NotKit [@Lukapanio I don't get your argument actually. UT is not preventing you from rem …], It is not about what i can. It is about model
 Just saying UT will stay as it os, we think its a solid model for mobile devices
 we're not advocating for this, but not preventing someone from doing it either
[10:15] <ubptgbot> dĪpÉsH was added by: dĪpÉsH
 @Flohack [Just saying UT will stay as it os, we think its a solid model for mobile devices], Libertine saves evrything a bit, but it is too slow and old
 @Lukapanio [Libertine saves evrything a bit, but it is too slow and old], Then help improving it
 Instead of complaining
 @NotKit [@Lukapanio I don't get your argument actually. UT is not preventing you from rem …], It breakes UT's model
 Libertine had support for LXC containers
 @NotKit [Libertine had support for LXC containers], Yep a thing too look into
 that can allow for 20.04 or even ArchLinux ARM container
 As for me it have 2 problems:
 1.X.org only
 1 is not true. Lomiri already exposes Wayland socket
 2. Can it become so fast as native?
 [Edit] 1) is not true. Lomiri already exposes Wayland socket
 Whats not native about UT lol
 2) containers performance is native, there is no emulation involved. Xmir may be slow, but it should be fine if you get it to work with Wayland/XWayland at forst
 @Flohack [Whats not native about UT lol], What would be faster ut with libhybris + lxc on top
 [Edit] 2) containers performance is native, there is no emulation involved. Xmir may be slow, but it should be fine if you get it to work with Wayland/XWayland at worst
 or just native app
 see answer from Nikita
 @NotKit [2) containers performance is native, there is no emulation involved. Xmir may be …], still we use phone, so resources are limited
 libhybris is a thin layer no penalties there
 @Flohack [libhybris is a thin layer no penalties there], indeed
 in any case i will use it
 What you are seeing is that Mir might not have all the fancy hw acceleration as in Android
[10:20] <ubptgbot> * NotKit looks at 256 GB + 8 GB RAM Pro1-X
 @NotKit [/me looks at 256 GB + 8 GB RAM Pro1-X], not every phone is pro 1x (that seems to be faster then my pc)
 that can beat some still sold laptops
 there is s3 neo :D (me looking at 1.5GB ram)
 @NotKit [that can beat some still sold laptops], yep my lenovo e330 for example
 @Lukapanio [there is s3 neo :D (me looking at 1.5GB ram)], Its a proof of concept dude ^^
 But still thanks, your answers helped me a bit
 BTW it will land in installer this week
 anyway I don't get what you're trying to achieve. Current situation is that rootfs can be remounted rw, but xenial base is rather outdated by now to install useful apps (like libhandy-based ones), so using container should be a better idea
 you can experiment with manual LXC containers, also see harbour-containers app for Sailfish that does similar things
 painful thing will be probably getting virtual keyboard inside, but not impossible
 @Flohack [BTW it will land in installer this week], A big + for UT
 @NotKit [painful thing will be probably getting virtual keyboard inside, but not impossib …], keyboard is kinda working in libertien
 at least chroot one
 @NotKit [anyway I don't get what you're trying to achieve. Current situation is that root …], ig if ubports want to save current model (i dont like it but anyway) both rootfs and libertien must get focal
 it's not model but development effort problem
 having rw rootfs won't magically update it to focal
 @NotKit [having rw rootfs won't magically update it to focal], indeed it wount
 About lxc @NotKit after few tests i would say it is missing packeges + permission problems
 get up-to-date container working manually, then deal with Libertine I think
 @Lukapanio
 Fwd from kabouik: I made a more detailed video here @MrFoxhead: https://lbry.tv/@Kab:7/LXC_sailfishos_Pro1:b
 that's pretty much possible on UT as well, it's just we're sometimes too busy telling people it won't work/not supported/etc
 [Edit] from Pro1 group, that's pretty much possible on UT as well, it's just we're sometimes too busy telling people it won't work/not supported/etc
 @NotKit [I made a more detailed video here @MrFoxhead: https://lbry.tv/@Kab:7/LXC_sailfis …], as for me it sounds strange to have phone gui and still run xfce ... but yep thanks will look at it, interested in lxc part
 @Lukapanio [it gives a bit of stability and takes much usefull things], what does the ro rootfs take away for you?
 @Lukapanio [So if user install random stuff on PC and it cant boot it is ok], installing random stuff is not an issuue actually
 @Fuseteam [what does the ro rootfs take away for you?], classical linux packege management ?
 hmm maybe but there more to it then that
 as you said phone have limited resources
[11:40] <ubptgbot> <Boris Mihailov> Are there device specific groups on telegram for Ubuntu? Just checking. :)
 most phones have a limited storage for example
 @Boris Mihailov [Are there device specific groups on telegram for Ubuntu? Just checking. :)], Xperia X in German. Also Pinephone
[11:41] <ubptgbot> <Boris Mihailov> @Stereofont [Xperia X in German. Also Pinephone], Eh, should have learned German in school. Okay, thanks. :)
 @Lukapanio [classical linux packege management ?], i guess you just want to install from the ubuntu repo? or is there more to it?
 @Lukapanio [classical linux packege management ?], [Edit] i guess you just want to install from the ubuntu repos? or is there more to it?
 you know before canonical officially dropped it... was ubuntu touch ever supposed to run snaps? or were we always destined for clicks
 for context the rootfs on mine _is_ rw but i can see many benefits for ro
 [Edit] for context the rootfs on mine is rw but i can see many benefits for ro
[11:44] <ubptgbot> Giupeste was added by: Giupeste
 i probably should make a forum post about it
 @Fuseteam [i guess you just want to install from the ubuntu repos? or is there more to it?], both
 ```lxc-start 20201112114440.160 ERROR    lxc_cgfs - cgroups/cgfs.c:lxc_cgroupfs_create:906 - Could not find writable mount point for cgroup hierarchy 9 while trying t … o create cgroup. …       lxc-start 20201112114440.161 ERROR    lxc_cgfs - cgroups/cgfs.c:cgroup_rmdir:209 - Device or resource busy - Failed to delete /dev/cpuset//lxc/a
[11:46] <ubptgbot> ndroid …       lxc-start 20201112114440.161 ERROR    lxc_cgfs - cgroups/cgfs.c:cgroup_rmdir:209 - Device or resource busy - Failed to delete /dev/cpuset//lxc …       lxc-start 20201112114440.162 ERROR    lxc_cgfs - cgroups/cgfs.c:cgroup_rmdir:209 - Device or resource busy - Failed to delete /dev/cpuset//user.slice/user-0.slice/ … session-c2.scope``
[11:46] <ubptgbot> ` @NotKit  any idea?
 r/o rootfs is fine as long as you are able to control it in some way (see nixos and other distros using a vaguely similar model), or if the OS is built to be useable without touching root... i cant really imagine what i want to do with ubports in the rootfs
 not sure what good it'd do me, except give me the ability to break things i dont need to be breaking
 @Lukapanio [classical linux packege management ?], last ping/question if i told you there may be a way to install applications that are packaged for traditional linux on a ro rootfs; would you be interested?
 @PiecerEdd [r/o rootfs is fine as long as you are able to control it in some way (see nixos …], yes this, i think we could work on getting something like the nix package manager supported
 you can install nix on sailfish, as well as android in termux, would be interesting
 not sure if its a viable alternative to libertine or whatever
 i think it an viable option for cli apps
 it would be awesome to actually run nixos itself on a mobile though, with the configuration.nix and everything (yes i know a pipe dream, though i think there is a pinephone image!)
 libertine is more for x apps imo
 @Fuseteam [last ping/question if i told you there may be a way to install applications that …], libertien
 ik
 or remount rw and install cli apps
 so if libertine "just worked" would you be fine with it?
 i would... i run android in a similar sort of fashion, containerizing proprietary crap and only firing them up when i need to 😆'
 lol
 @Fuseteam [so if libertine "just worked" would you be fine with it?], As for now, i am working on broken lxc with some TheKit's help so probably
 @Fuseteam [so if libertine "just worked" would you be fine with it?], [Edit] As for now, i am working on broken lxc with some TheKit's help, so probably
 i'm looking into what people that want a rw rootfs want to do that requires rw
 [Edit] i'm looking into what people that want a rw rootfs want to do that requires rootfs rw
 @Lukapanio sudo start cgroupfs-lite
 so far it comes down to either just "installing traditional packages" or "its ubuntu therefore apt must work"
 @Fuseteam [i'm looking into what people that want a rw rootfs want to do that requires root …], well most people probably expect UT to work like a regular linux distro
 @hacker12455 [well most people probably expect UT to work like a regular linux distro], what does that mean tho
 well working apt
 for one
 only "working apt"? what else?
 @NotKit [@Lukapanio sudo start cgroupfs-lite], Thanks. start cgroup-lite*
 @Fuseteam [only "working apt"? what else?], probably only this
 not sure what other people would want
 but from what I see that is one of the expectations
 An old-style package manager doesn't make a distro "real" GNU/Linux. This misconception is starting to make me angry.
 So @NotKit  current status. Lxc container can be created from root, with rw rootfs
 it can start, with broken network
 i can attach to it
 @fredldotme [An old-style package manager doesn't make a distro "real" GNU/Linux. This miscon …], agreed but from what i can tell that's the main reason people want a rw rootfs
 in this case it is ubuntu focal
 It's what people are used to, not necessarily what is better for stability reasons. But people are probably willing to shoot themselves in the foot, like literally with a gun, if that's all they know.
[12:01] <ubptgbot> Graphitenet was added by: Graphitenet
 @fredldotme [It's what people are used to, not necessarily what is better for stability reaso …], hmm i think its more that they want to install a random ubuntu package and run into the ro rootfs
 @Fuseteam [hmm i think its more that they want to install a random ubuntu package and run i …], Right, but why install something on a device that isn't fit for the job? The interface for example is completely unfitting for desktop or CLI apps.
 It starts to sound like a theological argument. If we are getting into religious differences maybe it should move to overflow 🤔
 Right
 i agree on desktop apps on a small screen but there are some nice uses for cli apps
 is it?
 @Lukapanio [classical linux packege management ?], Just another item why this is bad on the phone: You wear out your flash. apt has much more writes to the SD than if you just flash an OTA. Plus its much slower
 its still about ut just about why people find the ro an issue in the first place
 @Flohack [Just another item why this is bad on the phone: You wear out your flash. apt has …], Also the network requirements of pulling the catalog of all available packages into local storage.
 @Fuseteam [its still about ut just about why people find the ro an issue in the first place], I mean that rw versus ro is much like transubstantiation …
 Exsactly, so you need a lot more data from your data plan
 i found a pretty good slide that explains the benefits of a ro rootfs; particular for flash as well
 on other hand, Sailfish installs updates package-by-package via rpm and flash wearing out did not seem to be a problem for Jolla 1, which is like 7 years now
 but UBPorts OTA way is more robust and faster
 ^
 Yeah, I had my Jolla devices break regularly due to RPM issues, but that's just my experience.
 [Edit] but UBPorts OTA way is more robust and faster for installing updates
 Lets see where we are in lets say 2-3 years. The new linux on mobile stuff is not finished
 plus recovery is such a cinch
 You need longterm experience, not just a few months
 [Edit] plus recovery is such a cinch, without dataloss too!
 imagine being able to reinstall your os, without losing your files or your apps
 I think if snap or flatpak were usable it would quiet a lot of complainers about r/o system. I think what they are really meaning is that they want apps beyond click.
 There are many flatpak gnome apps that would scale for a touch interface nicely, as noted before.
 yes that's my impression too
 Flatpak is pretty close, can start some apps already but need solution for virtual keyboard
 And the ones that don't work nice for phone may still give some random geek the functionality s/he wants
 @rikshaw [I think if snap or flatpak were usable it would quiet a lot of complainers about …], Yeah, but "why"? For fun? It's just not the right tool for the job, I could hammer in a nail with a shoe but a hammer is just better.
 because they want to control change :p
 I know some people get hot when they can open gimp on the phone but then: You can´t use it with that UI ^^
 or generally the just want firefox or something they are familiar with
 [Edit] or generally they just want firefox or something they are familiar with
 Best is: Cryptominers, Web servers and tons of (probably illegal) hacking and cracking tools for on the go fun
 @Fuseteam [because they want to control change :p], Because it is 'the one true way'
 Link:           vethI334G9 …  TX bytes:      1.38 KiB …  RX bytes:      1.34 KiB …  Total bytes:   2.72 KiB
 gr8
 @fredldotme [Yeah, but "why"? For fun? It's just not the right tool for the job, I could hamm …], Again I think it is "all about the apps". I don't want to trash Sturm Reader, for example, but you can't hilight, make notes, etc. Things that people expect from a epub reader. There are very good quality options from flatpak that work well i
[12:13] <ubptgbot> n phone form factor (well due to libhandy, they are gnome, so now we get in that argument)
 leme test it now
 Exactly, it's the familiarity. If everything that one is familiar with is riding a bike he/she it doesn't make riding on the Autobahn a supported usecase :P
 pretty much yeah
 Also podbird is pretty darn good, but there are better podcast apps already avilable, already usable in phone form factor as flatpaks.
 lol
 @rikshaw [Again I think it is "all about the apps". I don't want to trash Sturm Reader, fo …], Its more than this: Due to confinemnet and content-hub, you cannot just open any document on the phone. flatpack is a package format, Ubuntu Touch has APIs though that the App need to use
 Like keyboard, h/w access, notifications, file exchange all this
 You always forget that part
 The app needs to be adapted to the OS, to be a firstclass citizen
 @Flohack [You always forget that part], as they most people wanting rw rootfd
 Ubuntu Touch is a platform, just as much as GNOME or KDE are platforms. The problem lies in agreeing on one standard, because that's not something that anybody wants for some mind boggling reason.
 @fredldotme [Ubuntu Touch is a platform, just as much as GNOME or KDE are platforms. The prob …], Standards are for pussies and commercial software...
 hmm i wouldn't say that
 @Flohack [Its more than this: Due to confinemnet and content-hub, you cannot just open any …], Yes, you are right.
 @Flohack [Standards are for pussies and commercial software...], hmm not sure about this one 😊
 @rikshaw [hmm not sure about this one 😊], Well a true FOSS hero forks everything to make it fit their needs
 Thats open software right?
 Guess why companies have a hard time with that approach
 @Flohack [Standards are for pussies and commercial software...], "I want the freedom to stick my garden gnome upside down in the garden" /s
 If you want more FOSS in public life, make it goddam standardized
 @Flohack [Standards are for pussies and commercial software...], [Edit] "I want the freedom to stick my garden gnome upside down in the garden" `/s`
 Which is why systemd for example is so good, it allowed me to target multiple distros without worrying about compatibility.
 @fredldotme mostly you are right, but about gimp no
 What about convergence?
 Again that's not really the issue
 @fredldotme [Which is why systemd for example is so good, it allowed me to target multiple di …], How dare you! Because runlevel scripts are the only way to start stuff ^^
 @Lukapanio [What about convergence?], This is often misunderstood
 @Lukapanio [@fredldotme mostly you are right, but about gimp no], GIMP is the *perfect* example with its menu based UI that just doesn't fit the touch screen paradigm.
 root@testlxc:/# ping 8.8.8.8 … ping: socket: Permission denied
 S-security
 And convergence is only as good as the input method the device supports. The fxtec pro1-X might be a game changer, but it's just not of any use on my Pixel 3a for example.
 ```62: eth0@if63: <BROADCAST,MULTICAST,UP,LOWER_UP> mtu 1500 qdisc noqueue state UP group default qlen 1000 …     link/ether 00:16:3e:f1:01:16 brd ff:ff:ff:ff:ff:ff link-netnsid 0 …     inet 10.0.3.99/24 brd 10.0.3.255 scope global dynamic eth0 …        valid_lft 3402sec preferred_lft 3402sec …     inet6 fe80::216:3eff:fef1:116/64 scope
[12:20] <ubptgbot>  link  …        valid_lft forever preferred_lft forever```
 @NotKit any ide about network? Sounds like permission problems again
 @Flohack [How dare you! Because runlevel scripts are the only way to start stuff ^^], I found a pretty good talk on systemd where the speaker said and i quote "we love change, when we're the ones making the change" 😂
 @Flohack [Its more than this: Due to confinemnet and content-hub, you cannot just open any …], I think people's experience on a desktop has them see that flatpak does a lot of magic behind the scenes and *just (mostly) works*. I'm typing this on flatpak'd telegram right now, here are my fancy keyboards: ሙሴ ሜንና  ŋɗâɠ
 @Lukapanio [62: eth0@if63: <BROADCAST,MULTICAST,UP,LOWER_UP> mtu 1500 qdisc noqueue state UP …], Please try to not bother all the 3.4k members here with technical details, its the supergroup for overall discussions ^^
 Most of the people here have no idea about thsi stuff
 So, maybe we are spoiled on desktop and don't realize what is under the hood
[12:21] <ubptgbot> fw190 was added by: fw190
 @rikshaw [I think people's experience on a desktop has them see that flatpak does a lot of …], I tried snap Telegram and immediately uninstalled it again: Accidentially clicked the update button and it froze lol
 @Lukapanio [@NotKit any ide about network? Sounds like permission problems again], is your user in group 3003 I think?
 @Flohack [Please try to not bother all the 3.4k members here with technical details, its t …], Is there technical group?
 perhaps the welcome group is useful for the libertine support?
 @Lukapanio [Is there technical group?], not porting
 @Lukapanio [Is there technical group?], UBports Development might suit yout
 @Fuseteam [perhaps the welcome group is useful for the libertine support?], Nah dont think so ^^
 or that
 @Flohack [UBports Development might suit yout], or that
 @NotKit have you seen how various integrations work (or DON'T work) in flatpak on UT? Not sure what apps you are running, but can you use keyboard, any notifications, etc?
 alright so for now i'll conclude "people want rw on ut mostly to install 'traditonal' programs"
 @rikshaw [@NotKit have you seen how various integrations work (or DON'T work) in flatpak o …], don't work, I mentioned that at least vkb needs to be solved
 @rikshaw [@NotKit have you seen how various integrations work (or DON'T work) in flatpak o …], none of those work probably :p
 Pro1 hw keyboard works
 well that's at least something 😂
 an external keyboard would probably also work
 @Fuseteam [alright so for now i'll conclude "people want rw on ut mostly to install 'tradit …], Yeah, I think that is fair. I should correct my older intests: i could care less about ro or rw. And for ME the UT apps are (mostly) sufficient. But for many it is about "show me the apps". And I guess honestly most that want more apps aren't g
[12:26] <ubptgbot> oing to be satisfied even with flatpak or snap at their disposal. I guess that they are looking at a few Android crutches.
 So that gets us back to Anbox, which I hear has some development support?? Is there really any hope it could handle things like hw acceleration, notifications, etc. though? Not likely right?
 @rikshaw [Yeah, I think that is fair. I should correct my older intests: i could care less …], Well tbf post people who come here and complain about ro/rw are those that want Apache on their phones.
 @rikshaw [Yeah, I think that is fair. I should correct my older intests: i could care less …], those who need those android crutches are probably not gonna be satisfied with apt either tbf
 @Fuseteam [those who need those android crutches are probably not gonna be satisfied with a …], Agreed. The apt / rw group are not really about more GUI apps I think. They want a pocket server. The GUI app dreamers are the ones that probably want better Anbox.
 Agreed
 wouldn't be cool if we could support snap and flatpaks, regardless of integrations tho :p … long way off but still :p
 @rikshaw [Agreed. The apt / rw group are not really about more GUI apps I think. They want …], agreed
 [Edit] wouldn't be cool if we could support both snap and flatpaks, regardless of integrations tho :p … long way off but still :p
 @Flohack [I tried snap Telegram and immediately uninstalled it again: Accidentially clicke …], So I know this is a long way off, but UT has to go somewhere with app base right?
 openstore says: app porters welcome
 Even if Anbox gets needed updates, is it likely to be a big battery drain, never have integration, just by limitation of design? I mean it is running everything in java for pete sake right?
 We definitely need to attract more app developers, but those are more interested in making $$$ on proprietary platforms than getting themselves a free OS first. They're one variation IMO of the "it just works, PERIOD" crowd. They don't want to mess with platform stuff, if it doesn't have everything the developer wants the platform has
[12:35] <ubptgbot> failed in their mind.
 What I mean is, most app developers are probably like "'nobody' uses that UT stuff". It's the usual chicken-and-egg problem.
 @fredldotme yeah, agreed. But could we care less if we have a proper WhatsApp direct from Facebook? If the Anbox version could at least allow me to get a text from my mother, however 😊 (which I think it can, but without killing my battery).
 @rikshaw [@fredldotme yeah, agreed. But could we care less if we have a proper WhatsApp di …], Yeah, the fact that Anbox can't make use of the hardware properly is one piece of the puzzle, but it seems to be related to background services going crazy on the CPU too, thinking of my experiment with it on the Xperia X, which basically cut
[12:46] <ubptgbot>  battery life in half.
 But yeah, the argument in the past was that UT needs native apps, following the HIG, but nowadays we would of course like to have Android apps on the platform too, if they solve a specific problem.
 @fredldotme [Yeah, the fact that Anbox can't make use of the hardware properly is one piece o …], I would guess (well at least for me) that the few apps I would use Anbox for would need NO integration or hardware acceleration. Meaning, if Anbox is trying to do everything android does (notifications, integration with other apps, etc.) it t
[12:49] <ubptgbot> akes a lot. Maybe there could be some sort of switch saying "yeah don't even try to do all that for this app, I prefer battery" 😊
 Anbox apps will never be "first class" it is only about being stopgap so that we can enjoy using all the OTHER native first class apps for other things.
 If only Facebook/WhatsApp wouldn't bitch around about 3rd party apps and provide an API.. I certainly would have worked on it a looong time ago.
 [Edit] If only Facebook/WhatsApp wouldn't bitch around about 3rd party apps and provide a public API.. I certainly would have worked on it a looong time ago.
 exactly. But guaranteed it will break again in the future. then 100's of hours down the drain 😞. Closed source really sucks. Running it in Anbox means we don't have to code something that they don't want to support people doing. But yeah, battery and notifications... ugh
 teleports is AWESOME, btw. Yeah not full featured, but great. Hope the closed server model doesn't bite us. Too bad matrix is confusing for my grandmother to join 😊
 @rikshaw [teleports is AWESOME, btw. Yeah not full featured, but great. Hope the closed se …], Nah its not biting us. I had even chats with Telegram employees they are very openminded and supportive
 They were very helpful with push notifications, running specific code just for us ;)
 @rikshaw [teleports is AWESOME, btw. Yeah not full featured, but great. Hope the closed se …], Doesn't matrix just ask you to choose a username and password?
 what package manager are you guys using on UT?
 @rikshaw [@fredldotme yeah, agreed. But could we care less if we have a proper WhatsApp di …], And what about getting your mother also use telegram ?  It's so easy.
 @rikshaw [@fredldotme yeah, agreed. But could we care less if we have a proper WhatsApp di …], [Edit] @rikshaw And what about getting your mother also use telegram ?  It's so easy.
 ok
 @Moozeecka [what package manager are you guys using on UT?], Clickable to build click package: http://docs.ubports.com/en/latest/appdev/index.html
 @libremax [Clickable to build click package: http://docs.ubports.com/en/latest/appdev/index …], I love it. Thanks! get ready for emacs on UT, people. I'm about to make my first UT app.. it will probably be ready by the end of the year 2034. seriously though .. thanks for the link!
 @dohbee [no], Well
 Uhh depends tbh
 Some devices have had newer kernels
 Grouper is one I can't think of
 [Edit] Grouper is one I can think of
 @Flohack [Nah its not biting us. I had even chats with Telegram employees they are very op …], Hey, that is information I didn't know about. Didn't know the Telegram devs knew teleports existed.
 @rikshaw [Hey, that is information I didn't know about. Didn't know the Telegram devs knew …], Devs are humans too :)
 They spend time on the internet 😂
 @PhoenixLandPirate [Doesn't matrix just ask you to choose a username and password?], Its the "choose a homeserver" that scared a few people. Just takes user training. On that topic, is there any ubports focused homeserver??
 No. We're not a services company, we try not to provide consumer services.
 @rikshaw [Its the "choose a homeserver" that scared a few people. Just takes user training …], I thought that was filled by dafault so a new user just ignores it
 @UniversalSuperBox [No. We're not a services company, we try not to provide consumer services.], fully agreed. I meant any community member / sponsor that may be running it.
 At least fluffychats is filled by default
[14:20] <ubptgbot> Dhiwahang Rai was added by: Dhiwahang Rai
 @UniversalSuperBox [No. We're not a services company, we try not to provide consumer services.], [Edit] @UniversalSuperBox IF someone wanted to run their own server could they apply to use the ubports brand? Maybe you would want some sort of assurance they woudn't drag the name in the mud?
[14:22] <ubptgbot> <Dhiwahang Rai> does ubuntu touch support any highend flagship tablets or phones?
 Yes
 Fxtec is that money
 xD
 U better of getting a volla phone
[14:24] <ubptgbot> <Dhiwahang Rai> I am aiming for my investment to be future oriented
[14:24] <ubptgbot> <Dhiwahang Rai> that's all
 Volla will be best
[14:25] <ubptgbot> <Dhiwahang Rai> just volla?
[14:26] <ubptgbot> <Dhiwahang Rai> and what about tablets?
 @Flohack [They were very helpful with push notifications, running specific code just for u …], So, any chance you could politely check in to see if they are willing to consider open sourcing the server side? 😊
 @Dhiwahang Rai [and what about tablets?], That's one area we need xD
[14:36] <ubptgbot> <Dhiwahang Rai> My dad own a hotel and I was thinking of managing a tablet that could be useful on registering customer's details from their names to signatures
[14:41] <ubptgbot> <Dhiwahang Rai> @amyosx [That's one area we need xD], I will be looking forward to that day!
 @rikshaw [So, any chance you could politely check in to see if they are willing to conside …], I can ask but I dont think this will be successful ;)
 @Dhiwahang Rai [and what about tablets?], I have Nexus 7 and it runs really nicely with UT, but it's an ooooold device so it's probably not what you're looking for
[14:59] <ubptgbot> <Dhiwahang Rai> I will  check the reviews
[15:00] <ubptgbot> <Dhiwahang Rai> anyway thanks @joeth
[15:00] <ubptgbot> <Dhiwahang Rai> does ubuntu touch have cloud services too?
 @Dhiwahang Rai [does ubuntu touch have cloud services too?], No
 We are not a service provider ^^
 Fwd from UniversalSuperBox: No. We're not a services company, we try not to provide consumer services.
 Cloud services get expensive quickly if you want the level of reliability required
 Google etc do it by massive scale
[15:12] <ubptgbot> <Dhiwahang Rai> I agree but it would have been better if ubuntu could partner with some of the cloud services too!
[15:14] <ubptgbot> <Dhiwahang Rai> At least an app option would have been appreciated
 Canonical experimented with cloud services (Ubuntu One) but couldn't make it viable at the scale they could reach. UBports don't have the resources to try that.
[15:15] <ubptgbot> <Dhiwahang Rai> okay understood
 @fredldotme [An old-style package manager doesn't make a distro "real" GNU/Linux. This miscon …], android too runs the linux kernel.. so why people are us hate it.. coz its containarised and does not give the freedom we used to have in pc linux distro.. so as much as I can see what people want a pocket pc with a mobile gui. Although I have no
[15:17] <ubptgbot>  problem with the current state of ubtouch it would be much fun (a.k.a nerdy) to run a regular gnu/linux distro in mobile
 @fredldotme [An old-style package manager doesn't make a distro "real" GNU/Linux. This miscon …], [Edit] android too runs the linux kernel.. so why people hate it.. coz its containarised and does not give the freedom we used to have in pc linux distro.. so as much as I can see what people want a pocket pc with a mobile gui. Although I have no
[15:18] <ubptgbot>  problem with the current state of ubtouch it would be much fun (a.k.a nerdy) to run a regular gnu/linux distro in mobile
 @Ozu [android too runs the linux kernel.. so why people hate it.. coz its containarise …], Its fun only for a small fraction of potential users. If we want to get heard on this planet we need to have kinda critical mass. That will not work if you constantly need to know a lot about computers. The container model of Android and iOS made it
[15:21] <ubptgbot>  so successful - also people and children with 0 knowledge of how to operate a PC can operate a smartphone. Its by far more accepted than a traditional PC
 yeah.. thats true.. but there should also exist some distros that feed those nerdy niches
 @Ozu [android too runs the linux kernel.. so why people hate it.. coz its containarise …], Many people dislike android because of continuous tracking, ads,...
 @libremax [Many people dislike android because of continuous tracking, ads,...], those are normies.. who dont know how to even ungoogle..
 I mean Los..
 root
 @Ozu [yeah.. thats true.. but there should also exist some distros that feed those ner …], Well PostmarketOS and others can do this for you
 yeah..
[15:35] <ubptgbot> nima was added by: nima
 @Ozu [those are normies.. who dont know how to even ungoogle..], More than 90% of smartphone users, i.e. billions of people...
 @libremax [More than 90% of smartphone users, i.e. billions of people...], Exactly
 @libremax [More than 90% of smartphone users, i.e. billions of people...], but for that we have to ship ubtouch phones ..they are not going to install it current way
 prox1 is good coise though
 [Edit] prox1 is good choise though
 That's already the case with vollaphone, fxtec, pinephone
 Yeah.. I wish pinephone had a better hardware
 i wish i had the money/connections to get the optimal phone design in my head, produced
[16:35] <ubptgbot> Moto Crazy was added by: Moto Crazy
 @dohbee [i wish i had the money/connections to get the optimal phone design in my head, p …], I have seen some people doing it.. but you have to go china for that
 @Ozu [I have seen some people doing it.. but you have to go china for that], nah, that's just getting custom assembly of custom parts off a shelf in Shenzen. i mean a properly designed and built device
 May one day.. from ubtouch team
 [Edit] May be one day.. from ubtouch team
 @fredldotme [If only Facebook/WhatsApp wouldn't bitch around about 3rd party apps and provide …], why not make one for them for a teeeeny fee 😋
 People I have one question. Is it possible to change Unity to another DE on Ubuntu T 16.04? I just really liked the old DE in ubuntu touch 13.04 and wondered if it was possible to return the old shell
 no. ubuntu touch uses lomiri. ubuntu touch has never used a different environment. it's simply evolved now
 what you remember from the original 13.04 ubuntu phone images is just an older version of unity8
 @dohbee [no. ubuntu touch uses lomiri. ubuntu touch has never used a different environmen …], So after the 20.04 update, it will be possible to change the shell?
 @Mister_Tails121 [So after the 20.04 update, it will be possible to change the shell?], no
 @Ozu [android too runs the linux kernel.. so why people hate it.. coz its containarise …], no not exactly, but i'll post the question to you too: what 'freedom' do you expect from a "rw rootfs"? what do you expect to able to do?
 @dohbee [what you remember from the original 13.04 ubuntu phone images is just an older v …], (and there is no way to return it ... sadly a little)
 @Fuseteam [no not exactly, but i'll post the question to you too: what 'freedom' do you exp …], well the idea that people "hate android" because of the way things are packaged, when android has 98% of the mobile devices market, is a very odd claim anyway
 @Mister_Tails121 [(and there is no way to return it ... sadly a little)], there is not
 @dohbee [no], even after updating to 20.04, I still can't install Gnome Phosm or KDE Plasma?
 you could perhaps find the old code from that time, fork it and maintain it yourself, and build your own phone images, but it's incompatible with what Ubuntu Touch is today
 @dohbee [well the idea that people "hate android" because of the way things are packaged, …], true, but that kind claim probably comes from the perspective of "gib rw rootfs pls"
 @Mister_Tails121 [even after updating to 20.04, I still can't install Gnome Phosm or KDE Plasma?], no. Ubuntu Touch is not a traditional PC linux distro, and phones aren't PCs. you can't just replace bits and pieces and expect to have a working phone. you can of course try to use Plasma Mobile or PureOS or whatever on your phone instead
 @Fuseteam [true, but that kind claim probably comes from the perspective of "gib rw rootfs …], well it's just a small minority of people who think they should have traditional linux distro on their phone, and are loud about it
 @dohbee [you could perhaps find the old code from that time, fork it and maintain it your …], So I think that old UT images are not supported by Halium
 @Mister_Tails121 [even after updating to 20.04, I still can't install Gnome Phosm or KDE Plasma?], to be fair you can but then it won't be ubuntu touch anymore
 @Mister_Tails121 [So I think that old UT images are not supported by Halium], they are not supported at all
 @dohbee [well it's just a small minority of people who think they should have traditional …], i know, i'm just digging into what they expect, so far its just "i want to use traditional linux programs"
 @Fuseteam [i know, i'm just digging into what they expect, so far its just "i want to use t …], yes, that's literally all it is
 "give debs please"
 @dohbee [no. Ubuntu Touch is not a traditional PC linux distro, and phones aren't PCs. yo …], Honestly, this is a little surprising because, for example, screenfetch shows that this is a full-fledged, ordinary Ubuntu 16.04 LTS for ARM ... that is, all Linux applications for ARm should work
 @dohbee [yes, that's literally all it is], i think i found a way to do it with a ro rootfs :3
 tho its not debs :p
 @Mister_Tails121 [Honestly, this is a little surprising because, for example, screenfetch shows th …], well screenfetch has no concept of what ubuntu touch is. judging the world by the results of a broken script will only lead you to further such "surprises" :)
 @Mister_Tails121 [Honestly, this is a little surprising because, for example, screenfetch shows th …], yes and no
 @Fuseteam [i think i found a way to do it with a ro rootfs :3], yeah, libertine
 nix :p
 the hurdle is much lower with the nix package manager afaict
 but i'm still figuring it out
 since nix provides no actual system integration support or anything, i wouldn't say that :P
 @dohbee [yeah, libertine], eh .... why do we need libertine if it's actually a crutch and the only thing that prevents them from running in ubuntu touch itself is .... directly raped apt and non-working Wayland
 it basically installs everything /nix/store but that could be adapted i think
 @dohbee [since nix provides no actual system integration support or anything, i wouldn't …], for notifications and such i presume?
 @Mister_Tails121 [eh .... why do we need libertine if it's actually a crutch and the only thing th …], uh what? it's a crutch because of how legacy apps work, not because of apt or wayland
 @Mister_Tails121 [eh .... why do we need libertine if it's actually a crutch and the only thing th …], uh no that's not how any of this works
 ain't nobody stopping you from going off and breaking your phone; we just don't provide support if you do so
 @dohbee [uh what? it's a crutch because of how legacy apps work, not because of apt or wa …], outdated applications? I didn't think that only old versions are in the Ubuntu Touch repositories ...
 Uhh u actually can use apt
 Just don't cry when you mess up
 @Mister_Tails121 [outdated applications? I didn't think that only old versions are in the Ubuntu T …], it's ubuntu 16.04. even if it was 20.04 you'd still be bitching and moaning about "outdated applications"
 and the apps you want to run pretty much are not designed or built for use on phones
 In general, I tried to install the same cowsay via apt and because of the broken apt it seems to be installed, but bash writes that there is no such command
 apt is not broken
 @Mister_Tails121 [outdated applications? I didn't think that only old versions are in the Ubuntu T …], apt technically works but one you need to remount your rootfs as readwrite … two the rootfs is only 2GB … three your changes will get overwriten by ota
 four the gui will be tiiiiiiny
 the disk is simply full. even just doing `apt-get update` after remount rw, will result in it failing due to lack of space
 i'm using vim on ut just fine
 if you want cowsay in a terminal though then just download it and unpack it in your home dir somewhere like `~/bin/` which i think is already in `$PATH` anyway
 @Fuseteam [i'm using vim on ut just fine], i use vim and git on android just fine too
 i just need to reinstall it once in a while
 @dohbee [i use vim and git on android just fine too], meant to say "vim installed with apt" :p
 @Fuseteam [apt technically works but one you need to remount your rootfs as readwrite … two t …], No, I did it all, but the problem is in the broken apt .... Because when I install applications via apt, then ubuntu is right ..... whines and cries that well, there is no user _apt, well, he cannot reset the rights for some sandbox
 @Fuseteam [meant to say "vim installed with apt" :p], i mean, you don't need apt to use vim
 @Mister_Tails121 [No, I did it all, but the problem is in the broken apt .... Because when I insta …], no that message is irrelevant but clearly you did not install cowsay if cowsay didn't work
 @Mister_Tails121 [No, I did it all, but the problem is in the broken apt .... Because when I insta …], we're telling you its not broken that warning can be ignored, plenty install stuff with apt
 i use apt all the time on UT because that's how we test new things before merging them into devel
 ^
 apt works just fine. some packages may be broken by various bind mounts and such, when upgrading them, but otherwise it works just fine
 @dohbee [i mean, you don't need apt to use vim], well sure we just need a way to install it 😋
 @Fuseteam [well sure we just need a way to install it 😋], `tar xvf vim-release-stable.tar.xz && ./vim`
 👀
 hate tar it always trips me up
 @dohbee [no that message is irrelevant but clearly you did not install cowsay if cowsay d …], It's strange how I can not install if I entered the command and it succeeded (well, except for the warning about _apt) ... but bash persistently ignores ... I even reinstalled but still the same .... and so probably 90% of the installed c
[17:54] <ubptgbot> onsole applications via apt
 @Mister_Tails121 [It's strange how I can not install if I entered the command and it succeeded (we …], you need to look at the more relevant errors to see the real issue
 @Fuseteam [four the gui will be tiiiiiiny], Can confirm xD
 @Mister_Tails121 [It's strange how I can not install if I entered the command and it succeeded (we …], yeah the problem here isn't apt. it's that `/usr/games` is not in `$PATH`
 ```phablet@ubuntu-phablet:~$ /usr/games/cowsay apt works fine …  ________________ … < apt works fine > …  ---------------- …         \   ^__^ …          \  (oo)\_______ …             (__)\       )\/\ …                 ||----w | …                 ||     ||```
 @Fuseteam [you need to look at the more relevant errors to see the real issue], Well, maybe I’m missing something because I don’t know the nuances of UT (I’m just getting to know the system in fact .... It’s basically good, but some problems are confusing)
 who said all executable had to be in bin again lmao
 @Mister_Tails121 [Well, maybe I’m missing something because I don’t know the nuances of UT (I’m ju …], look at rodneys answer
 @Mister_Tails121 [Well, maybe I’m missing something because I don’t know the nuances of UT (I’m ju …], the main problem is you are expecting a standard traditional PC linux experience and ignoring that we are building a system for phones
 @dohbee [yeah the problem here isn't apt. it's that /usr/games is not in $PATH], (Damn, and at this very moment I can't remember how to add this path to PATH ... my memory is 5+ :))
 @Mister_Tails121 [Well, maybe I’m missing something because I don’t know the nuances of UT (I’m ju …], try /usr/games/cowsay instead
 @Mister_Tails121 [(Damn, and at this very moment I can't remember how to add this path to PATH ... …], lol
 also that cow seems anatomically incorrect somehow
 @dohbee [the main problem is you are expecting a standard traditional PC linux experience …], Well, here it is more likely that UT Tweak and Screenfetch say that these are standard Ubuntu and in general for me Ubuntu is almost associated with Linux and here is a mobile system with this name .... In general, I want to try to abando
[18:01] <ubptgbot> n Android and go completely in UT but due to the fact that there are no applications here, I thought maybe desktop applications for arm would work
 @dohbee [also that cow seems anatomically incorrect somehow], Yes, the cow is still nothing ... but the penguin ... he should be added to horror, he is so creepy
 @Mister_Tails121 [Well, here it is more likely that UT Tweak and Screenfetch say that these are st …], if the apps you need are for android, x11 apps aren't going to be your solution for them missing on UT
 maybe we should re-package our own `base-files` so when people decide to be all "hey screenfetch says…" it will say `Ubuntu Touch` insteady
 [Edit] maybe we should re-package our own `base-files` so when people decide to be all "hey screenfetch says…" it will say `Ubuntu Touch` instead
 @Ozu [android too runs the linux kernel.. so why people hate it.. coz its containarise …], Yeah, nerdy stuff is not our goal. Also IMO switching shells and such has absolutely nothing to do with freedom, rather with the insufficiency of the software. "Freedom of choice" is not one of the 4 essential software freedoms, never has been.
 But we're beating a dead horse
 @fredldotme [Yeah, nerdy stuff is not our goal. Also IMO switching shells and such has absolu …], and we don't take freedom of choice away regardless. anyone is free to not use UT as much as they are free to use it :)
 @dohbee [if the apps you need are for android, x11 apps aren't going to be your solution …], Yes, I am not dependent on Android applications ... I would at least have some analogues, but there are none .... + the problem is that UT loves to close applications in the background, which makes it necessary to keep Teleports and Music
[18:05] <ubptgbot> open so that their system does not kill .. .. + rather annoying feature that YouTube, when the screen is locked, why does it start to play video with microlags .... and when you unlock it, everything comes back to normal .... In general, UT has some strange algorithm for the work of background processes
 @Mister_Tails121 [Yes, I am not dependent on Android applications ... I would at least have some a …], apps are paused in background so they don't kill your battery and use all your data
 PHONES ARE NOT PCS
 @dohbee [PHONES ARE NOT PCS], Reep M1 ⚰️
 @dohbee [maybe we should re-package our own base-files so when people decide to be all "h …], As for repackaging screenfetch, this is a really good idea .... After all, many people, like me, will probably look through screenfetch information and will try to install, for example, Firefox Arm64 on the system
 @Mister_Tails121 [As for repackaging screenfetch, this is a really good idea .... After all, many …], you can install firefox in libertine and it works
 @dohbee [PHONES ARE NOT PCS], Reep apple silicon ⚰️
 @realSiRiSn0w [Reep apple silicon ⚰️], what. this group is about ubuntu touch, not general ARM shenanigans
 xD
 @dohbee [PHONES ARE NOT PCS], The current comparison with pu was superfluous. After all, for example, the same Android, if you close the music application, as an example, it will not kill it by force instantly ..... And YouTube does not lag in the background .... On the contrary, Unity tries to behave like a pc .... if you minimiz
[18:10] <ubptgbot> e .... everything ok ... but if you close the multitasking menu, then the application is killed ..... Android does not do this
 @Mister_Tails121 [The current comparison with pu was superfluous. After all, for example, the same …], you can play music in background on UT. and yes on android the youtube app won't play in background unless you pay Google the subscription fee
 @dohbee [you can install firefox in libertine and it works], Yes, there is only one problem ... Libertina does not work .... Applications for Libertina just crash ...)
 basically, from what i've seen here, you don't know what you're talking about and just want to complain about UT not being a traditional linux distro, instead of actually describing any real issues or doing anything to help make things better
 perhaps Ubuntu Touch is not ideal for you, and that's fine, but acting like you know better than the developers by coming in here and complaining in this manner is not reasonable
 @dohbee [basically, from what i've seen here, you don't know what you're talking about an …], Yes, I agree. Maybe I just don't understand something ... but my complaint right now is not that "Linux applications do not work" I already understood it ... My complaint is that even though you say that UT does not have a PC logic but a
[18:14] <ubptgbot> phone .... But in terms of the background, it behaves exactly the opposite ...
 @dohbee [perhaps Ubuntu Touch is not ideal for you, and that's fine, but acting like you …], Yes, I understand. And I'm looking for if it looks like that. But this is not a complaint, but rather my thoughts on how it works.
 What do you mean by "the background"? We SIGSTOP processes when they are not focused anymore, for reasons already mentioned.
 Of course we have daemons. Every OS has them.
 @Mister_Tails121 [Yes, I understand. And I'm looking for if it looks like that. But this is not a …], *And I'm sorry if it looks like that (google translate... Uhhh)
 @Mister_Tails121 [Yes, there is only one problem ... Libertina does not work .... Applications for …], Libertine has some issues right now, there were times where it already worked better. But conceptually its a nice idea. It can bridge the gap to desktop to some extent. So lets see if we can fix libertine
[18:17] <ubptgbot> Barbara Lisak was added by: Barbara Lisak
[18:17] <ubptgbot> Charlotte Harris was added by: Charlotte Harris
 @Flohack [Libertine has some issues right now, there were times where it already worked be …], part of the problem is that on a lot of these new GSI ports, things don't work well at all with libertine
 i don't know if "libertine is broken" is one of the preemptive issues for volla phone though :)
 Hmm true ;)
 @fredldotme [What do you mean by "the background"? We SIGSTOP processes when they are not foc …], As for how the background works, I'll show you better in the video now and I hope you understand what I mean
 i don't know why you think you'd need to keep teleports open and suspension disabled for it. it has push notifications already
 @dohbee [part of the problem is that on a lot of these new GSI ports, things don't work w …], One thing I can say for sure .... If the libertine works well, then UT can be called to some extent a PC (although rather a mixture) ;)
 as for music app it shouldn't need to disable suspension either, but i think there's an old issue that was never finished/fixed still; but music plays via media-hub so can keep playing in background
 but everything else is stopped when not focused or screen is locked, by default
 so youtube should pause playing in browser when you switch away or lock screen. there is i think an issue where it will stutter for a few seconds during the transition
 however there's also some work happening for a native youtube player app that will be able to play in background, through media-hub
 @dohbee [however there's also some work happening for a native youtube player app that wi …], I wish telegram had react emojis
 (Document) https://irc.ubports.com/IXAbbjJu.mp4
 @Mister_Tails121 [Yes, I am not dependent on Android applications ... I would at least have some a …], teleports notifs workd even if the app is "closed" and the music should continue playing aswell
 @Fuseteam [teleports notifs workd even if the app is "closed" and the music should continue …], i the main issue with music-app needing to be open, is how the sound indicator and such integration stuff works
 i mean podbird continue playing find in the background
 [Edit] i mean podbird continues playing fine in the background
 @Fuseteam [i mean podbird continues playing fine in the background], yes, but it must be "open"
 no pretty sure it doesn't need to be in the foreground
 if you quit the app, it will stop playing
 at least it didn't last i checked
 @dohbee [if you quit the app, it will stop playing], quit as in close, or as in switch away?
 (Video, 33s) https://irc.ubports.com/cwzWtQKD.mp4 Fuh ... It was hard, but I was able to .... Well, in general, shit .... As we see the music after the closure on the android continues to work ... and dies on UT .... The same is with Teleports ... Due to the fact that UT prohibits it from working normally in the background, then,
[18:39] <ubptgbot> accordingly, push notifications are sent only when it is open .... By the way, a question .... Why can't I normally look into the SD card through the file manager .... remember the path where the disk is mounted ... (I hope these 2 videos go simultaneously)
 (Video, 48s) https://irc.ubports.com/8G0iwgvO.mp4
 @Fuseteam [quit as in close, or as in switch away?], as in the app is no longer in the process list
 cause if you close the app it deffo shouldn't continue playing any way right :p
 @Mister_Tails121 [<reply to media>], again teleports should "receive notifications fine even if closed"
[18:40] <ubptgbot> <Dhiwahang Rai> what do I need to learn to develop an app for ubuntu touch?
 @Mister_Tails121 [<reply to media>], no, push notifications do not require the app to be running. if it did, they wouldn't be push notifications. if you close the music app it will stop playing because of how the media-hub and indicator integration works. the thing on android is that the music player has a separate service activity which r
[18:40] <ubptgbot> uns in the background. we do not have background processes provided by apps on UT yet
 @Dhiwahang Rai [what do I need to learn to develop an app for ubuntu touch?], QML is the simplest way to build a native app
 you can also do html5 apps
 @Dhiwahang Rai [what do I need to learn to develop an app for ubuntu touch?], Надо знать хотя бы комбинацию HTML + QML. Но лучше всего C ++ + QML
 @Dhiwahang Rai [what do I need to learn to develop an app for ubuntu touch?], You need to know at least a combination of HTML + QML. But best of all is C ++ + QML
[18:41] <ubptgbot> <Dhiwahang Rai> thanks
 ....pretty sure if you quit the app on android it stops playing either way 🤔
 @Fuseteam [....pretty sure if you quit the app on android it stops playing either way 🤔], nope
 android also has a picture-in-picture overlay feature for video apps to use
 ....that's some funky behavior otherwise imo o.O
 @dohbee [no, push notifications do not require the app to be running. if it did, they wou …], Well, okay, I understood with music, but on Teleports, I know that push should even work in the background ... But for some reason come out differently .... Yes, first it works for a while (5 minutes) and then everything ... notifications
[18:43] <ubptgbot>  stop to come
 @Fuseteam [....that's some funky behavior otherwise imo o.O], or maybe it would be better to say "it depends"
 @Mister_Tails121 [Well, okay, I understood with music, but on Teleports, I know that push should e …], there is probably some other issue, perhaps with your device specifically and the port for it, where after some time the connection to push server is lost
 like, it helps to say what device you are running on
 guess i'm too old school to fathon closing an app but it continues playing
 @Fuseteam [....pretty sure if you quit the app on android it stops playing either way 🤔], Think it depends on how the app deals with being closed
 @Fuseteam [....pretty sure if you quit the app on android it stops playing either way 🤔], No, there is such a feature on android .... The application, if it needs to work in the background, creates an Activity background for the android which says to the system "Hear brother ... You are ... do not close me ... in a friendly way"
[18:45] <ubptgbot> and android is like that " Okay bro, work on "....
 @Fuseteam [guess i'm too old school to fathon closing an app but it continues playing], i just connect my headphones or car stereo to my phone, and hit play on there and it starts playing my music
 like for "close" i imagen open the app list/spread and swiping it away
 @Fuseteam [like for "close" i imagen open the app list/spread and swiping it away], yes but that doesn't kill the background service
 ......yeah i just can't see a good reason for that
 @Fuseteam [like for "close" i imagen open the app list/spread and swiping it away], (Didn't I do the same in the video?)
 why close the app if the purpose is to its service?
 @Fuseteam [......yeah i just can't see a good reason for that], you don't want to get in your car and just have music start playing without having to open the phone and the music app?
 [Edit] why close the app if the purpose is to use its service?
 @Fuseteam [why close the app if the purpose is to use its service?], user experience
 i almost never have to actually use the music app on my phone
 @dohbee [you don't want to get in your car and just have music start playing without havi …], i would imagine pressing "play" would launch the app and play :p
 @Fuseteam [why close the app if the purpose is to use its service?], Yes, you know .... Since childhood, I have such a habit that I open music and turn it to the desktop .... but because you cannot turn to the desktop in UT, you have to close it .... but you cannot close it ... and here is a stalemate
 @Fuseteam [i would imagine pressing "play" would launch the app and play :p], it launches the activity. the same as when you get a push notification it launches the push helper and not the application itself
 it would suck if you were reading twitter or something and hit play on your headphones and then suddenly music app appeared on top of what you were doing
 @Mister_Tails121 [Yes, you know .... Since childhood, I have such a habit that I open music and tu …], you.....just want to 'minimize'? guess i can that, there's and "desktop" app floating somewhere
 @Fuseteam [i would imagine pressing "play" would launch the app and play :p], Alas, it won't start, I tried (If you are of course about what to try to run through the curtain)
 @Mister_Tails121 [Yes, you know .... Since childhood, I have such a habit that I open music and tu …], We dont really have a desktop on Ubuntu Touch, though Android and Ios don't really have a desktop either
 @dohbee [it would suck if you were reading twitter or something and hit play on your head …], ok that i can understand yes
 i agree that the user experience on UT for music and some other things is perhaps not optimal
 but also the reasons for it are nothing at all related to anything you were complaining about
 i guess the mediahub could take that function
 @Fuseteam [i guess the mediahub could take that function], i would say it needs a major re-design in terms of architecture to do the right thing, but alas
 @Fuseteam [you.....just want to 'minimize'? guess i can that, there's and "desktop" app flo …], Yes, I just want to minimize ... But I really do not want to activate Window Mode through the tweaker ... I like it with Staged Mode, but it looks like you can't minimize
 .....ah 360 we're back where we started
[18:53] <ubptgbot> MARYANN Lamb was added by: MARYANN Lamb
 @Mister_Tails121 [Yes, I just want to minimize ... But I really do not want to activate Window Mod …], yes staged mode is made out of stages, there's an app that provides a "desktop stage" if you want you can pm me, i'll send it to you when i find it
 @PhoenixLandPirate [We dont really have a desktop on Ubuntu Touch, though Android and Ios don't real …], Yes, Android does not have a desktop, but there you can minimize applications ... And alas, I'm used to this function
 IDK what people would want from the ability to minimise there apps on a phone.
 i get it, as i use it myself :p
 tbf "minimize" doesn't necessarily make sense on any form factor, when you have the security and power management features provided by something like UT or Android
 hmm perhaps
 The only advantage I've seen, is when I use the music app, when I press the button to turn off the screen, I can still accidentally change song if I touch the screen before its fully off.
 (Photo, 720x1280) https://irc.ubports.com/n3C0Zkqq.png
 show desktop to 'minimize' :p
 @Fuseteam [show desktop to 'minimize' :p], yes that app which isn't in the store…
 @Fuseteam [<reply to media>], I have only one question .... "HOW ?!" … Is this really legal ?! 🤣
 @dohbee [yes that app which isn't in the store…], yupp i should have the click somewhere hehe
 @Mister_Tails121 [I have only one question .... "HOW ?!" … Is this really legal ?! 🤣], muahahahaha
 @dohbee [yes that app which isn't in the store…], Is it really impossible to get this wonderful application anywhere now?
 It says "Show desktop" but I dont think thats what it does, I think it just shows you your background image, because when all apps are closed, the launcher bar shows.
 I think you could just open the gallery app, find your background image, and you'd have the same experience.
 Does anyone know whether there's any workarounds to restoring spellchecking to QTWebEngine based apps? …  It broke with the new version introduced in OTA13.  … Just got OTA14 now and the issue is still there.  … Was hoping it'd be fixed there, but no change
 @PhoenixLandPirate [It says "Show desktop" but I dont think thats what it does, I think it just show …], yes, there is no "desktop"
 @PhoenixLandPirate [It says "Show desktop" but I dont think thats what it does, I think it just show …], hmmm ... sounds logical
 @PhoenixLandPirate [I think you could just open the gallery app, find your background image, and you …], eh tis one click compared to that :p
 @dohbee [yes, there is no "desktop"], Yeah I know that, but I'm just saying that a you'd expect something that has the title of "Show desktop" would offer the same experience, as if you minimised all your apps?
 @dohbee [yes, there is no "desktop"], [Edit] Yeah I know that, but I'm just saying that a you'd expect something that has the title of "Show desktop" would offer the same experience, as if you minimised or closed all your apps?
 and imo the launcher should be hidden anyway, we have the left swipe after all
 @theare27 [Does anyone know whether there's any workarounds to restoring spellchecking to Q …], it works ok for me using the qt 5.12 branches, in testing. so should just work when that gets pulled in, hopefully for OTA 15
 @Fuseteam [and imo the launcher should be hidden anyway, we have the left swipe after all], its autohide :D
 but first someone needs to write those tests xD
 @Fuseteam [and imo the launcher should be hidden anyway, we have the left swipe after all], let's not go down that rabbit hole again right now please
 anyone going down no rabbit hole nope
 [Edit] ain't going down no rabbit hole nope
 @dohbee [it works ok for me using the qt 5.12 branches, in testing. so should just work w …], Ok, cheers. Guess I'll wait on that then
 @dohbee [it works ok for me using the qt 5.12 branches, in testing. so should just work w …], I'm excited for qt 5.12! You're doing great work on it!!
 now where did i put that click
 @dohbee [it works ok for me using the qt 5.12 branches, in testing. so should just work w …], i'm also looking forward to what 5.12 will bring :^3
 New bugs :)
 lol bugs are just unwanted features xD
 Damn .... I thought so now .... I now want to help UT develop (and maybe even gain popularity) .... But how if I don't even know how to programming...
 qml might a good start ;)
 [Edit] qml might be a easy start ;)
 @Mister_Tails121 [Damn .... I thought so now .... I now want to help UT develop (and maybe even ga …], donation, translations, promotion, etc… what do you know how to do?
 @dohbee [donation, translations, promotion, etc… what do you know how to do?], Hmm ... Honestly, I don't really know ... I don't have much money ... I can't translate either ... I'm even talking with you now through Google translator ... About promotion ... Well, I can try to make my own ad (here's a promo video) but I don't think
[19:14] <ubptgbot>  it will be good .... but try to do ads like Coca Cola and other TV ads
 @Mister_Tails121 [Hmm ... Honestly, I don't really know ... I don't have much money ... I can't tr …], promotion means more telling others about it who might have the skills/money/time/etc… to contribute, if you don't. you don't need to make TV ads or such, just try to get the word out
 @dohbee [promotion means more telling others about it who might have the skills/money/tim …], Yes, here you are right in principle ... I will try to promote as much as I can
[19:19] <ubptgbot> chris7chris was added by: chris7chris
 Interesting discussions this eve
 haha true
 I would like to start the development of ubports for my bq x2, I have little time to dedicate so I don't guarantee anything, how do I prepare my PC or what do I install to be able to do everything?
 OTA-14 just downloaded to my OnePlus 3. No issues so far!
 @calvinistmac [OTA-14 just downloaded to my OnePlus 3. No issues so far!], Does Camera interfere with ringtones?
 I haven't tested that as I don't have a SIM in it at the moment. I can test that tonight and see if it's affected.
 I'm at work at the moment.
 @Stereofont
 Okay, thanks. Something like that was reported with 3T
 @Stereofont [Okay, thanks. Something like that was reported with 3T], it was caused by the media-hub change which has now been reverted. but if people could test the new proposed change along with gst-droid it would be good
 `sudo ubports-qa install media-hub 22` iirc
[21:30] <ubptgbot> MithunHasan was added by: MithunHasan
 I got UT working on my Nexus 6P. This is great!