[01:40] Thomas was added by: Thomas [04:51] Rana96GRG was added by: Rana96GRG [05:24] (Video, 140s) https://irc.ubports.com/lZ7evOIX.mp4 Hello everybody) … I need help. What if after installing applications in Libertina they do not start at all? Maybe you can fix it somehow? (I will attach a video to make it clear what the problem is) [06:02] Sadly, some Libertine apps don't work on 16.04, and 15.04 is actually more stable for it, due to display server issues. [06:03] @TartanSpartan [Sadly, some Libertine apps don't work on 16.04, and 15.04 is actually more stabl …], Is there an app known to work well with libertine? I never managed to run any app with it [06:27] gedit works and nautilus [06:28] but to me, libertine isn't really something to use for daily tasks [06:28] perhaps once all switched to wayland and 20.04 then it'll be actually usable [06:29] @Boris Mihailov [Is the torch in the indicator menu the cause for camera app to fail launch? Can' …], On my Xperia camera does launch AND I can use the torch from the indicator. Just not all camera functions are available yet. But I am not aware that this has got something to do with the torch. [06:33] @Mister_Tails121 [], what is the device? [06:35] if it is Android 9 based, it may be known (and fixable) issue [06:43] ttdemartini was added by: ttdemartini [07:00] mekas0 was added by: mekas0 [07:33] @cibersheep [I idid as it doesn't load any station. Do you need something?], I wanted the link to the app development website to report it but I think its being dealt with. Thanks [07:43] @taiebot taiebot [I wanted the link to the app development website to report it but I think its be …], https://gitlab.com/cibersheep/flas/-/issues/22 [07:43] Flas issue 22 in flas "FLAS doesn't work under OTA-14" [Opened] [07:44] This might be the one. I need to update the code to use the version 2 of the api [08:18] @Danfro [On my Xperia camera does launch AND I can use the torch from the indicator. Just …], Got it. What I'm saying is that after using the torch from there, when I launch the camera, it's only black screen in the viewport. [08:19] Still why ubuntu use android ota model (ro rootfs) and mir instead of wayland [08:22] ota model brings stability, you really don't want to have apt issues when installing an app on the train [08:22] and mir is a wayland compositor [08:24] @rogieroudshoorn [ota model brings stability, you really don't want to have apt issues when instal …], it gives a bit of stability and takes much usefull things [08:24] if i want to change android to something [08:24] probably it must not be android [08:25] and probably i want linux software [08:25] no model is perfect for everyone - there's plenty of alternatives that do bring a traditional distro to a phone for those who want to install apache from the commandline (mobian, manjaro,postmarketOS). [08:25] those will typically only run on the pinephone though [08:26] postmarketOS has some mainlined original android devices, but i don't think they are daily driver ready [08:30] @Boris Mihailov [Got it. What I'm saying is that after using the torch from there, when I launch …], Ouch, you are right. I can confirm, that after using the torch the screen stays blank. I will pass that on to the porter. [08:31] @Lukapanio [Still why ubuntu use android ota model (ro rootfs) and mir instead of wayland], Wayland was not satisfying performance demands for mobile, in relation to CPU power and energy consumption it seems [08:31] @Danfro [Ouch, you are right. I can confirm, that after using the torch the screen stays …], If it's of any help, my guesses are 2 things. Either indicator doesn't release the camera or it's because the broken video recording..? [08:32] @Lukapanio [and probably i want linux software], You can want what you want, but reailty will bite you - mobile hardware is optimized for Android blobs :P [08:34] @Boris Mihailov [If it's of any help, my guesses are 2 things. Either indicator doesn't release t …], Alfred hopefully knows more. He is planning some work regarding camera on Xperia X anyway. Lets see... Thanks for reporting. [09:42] AndreyRaskovalov was added by: AndreyRaskovalov [09:57] @Flohack [You can want what you want, but reailty will bite you - mobile hardware is optim …], stop. i am speaking about SOFTWARE not BLOBS [09:57] libhybris is ok [09:59] @Lukapanio [stop. i am speaking about SOFTWARE not BLOBS], well you cannot make software for hardware that has no documentation: Just saying the best free software did not help Canonical, you need hardware to put it on. THats why they chose Android phones and all the complicated way of the Android container. Pragmatic reasons [10:01] @Flohack [well you cannot make software for hardware that has no documentation: Just sayin …], I will say that again. I am not Mis012 and i dont care is it mainline or libhybris. But i do care abot such software as office browser etc [10:02] And BTW the OTA model has nothing to do with hardware being open or not [10:03] @Flohack [And BTW the OTA model has nothing to do with hardware being open or not], Yes inddeed. But that model breaks linux on pone (makes it similar to android), it is not modular. [10:03] @Flohack [And BTW the OTA model has nothing to do with hardware being open or not], And even OTA model dont force you to use RO [10:03] @Lukapanio [Yes inddeed. But that model breaks linux on pone (makes it similar to android), …], Yes and for good reasons of stability and security. A phone is not a desktop. We dont want people to apt-get random stuff into it and then not being able to boot it anymore etc [10:03] Hmm. A phone is a phone… [10:04] @Lukapanio [And even OTA model dont force you to use RO], Well if you want to mess up your rootfs then do r/w ofc [10:04] @Flohack [Yes and for good reasons of stability and security. A phone is not a desktop. We …], So if user install random stuff on PC and it cant boot it is ok [10:05] I think it's a misconception that the RO filesystem is the cause why normal linux programs are not available on UT … it is a mix of many things like mir and old Ubuntu base. [10:05] @Lukapanio [So if user install random stuff on PC and it cant boot it is ok], Its easier to recover ANd also on desktop you see a lot more packaged stuff todays [10:05] If you install random stuff on phone, and cant boot it is wrong [10:05] @Flohack [Its easier to recover ANd also on desktop you see a lot more packaged stuff toda …], Same stuff is packeged in ubuntus repos for arm so [10:06] @Lukapanio [Same stuff is packeged in ubuntus repos for arm so], No sorry I mean containerized [10:06] @Flohack [Its easier to recover ANd also on desktop you see a lot more packaged stuff toda …], About 1st, i dont think so. Restoring phone is easy [10:06] Containers are much better so think about what lxc is doing, snap etc. [10:06] @Lukapanio [About 1st, i dont think so. Restoring phone is easy], If you are a power user with a PC, yes. [10:06] @Flohack [No sorry I mean containerized], Who forbids you to use snap on arm? [10:07] We dont want to serve only a few 1000 geeks out there. Ubuntu Touch is for everyone, even your grandma [10:07] Its ervery day, consumer-grade oriented. So no fancy apt-get for the users, sorry [10:07] @Flohack [If you are a power user with a PC, yes.], pc yep, power user no. It is easier to use UT installer then install OS on pc [10:08] you can still technically do most of the things you can do on a linix desktop. They just need extra steps in UT and at that point, you're a hardcore user anyway so it shpuld be fine for you. Most users don't care about those things. [10:08] @Flohack [Its ervery day, consumer-grade oriented. So no fancy apt-get for the users, sorr …], If it is OS for my daily use i need apps, much of them [10:08] @Lukapanio [If it is OS for my daily use i need apps, much of them], Yes so thats not a contradiction [10:09] Apps not apt-getted arbitrary packages ^^ [10:09] @Lukapanio [pc yep, power user no. It is easier to use UT installer then install OS on pc], not when you're on the go and no PC nearby [10:09] exactly [10:09] I dont want to break my phone accidentially on the subway [10:09] haha [10:09] @Flohack [Yes so thats not a contradiction], So you are going to have > 10000 apps in openstore? [10:10] @Lukapanio [So you are going to have > 10000 apps in openstore?], If someone writes them of course ^^ it works for iOS, it works for Android why not for us [10:11] @Flohack [If someone writes them of course ^^ it works for iOS, it works for Android why n …], I will explain why not for you. iOS and Android were on the begining [10:11] there was nothing else [10:11] so they become popular [10:11] app were written [10:11] Yes and they succeeded because it was different to what a PC does [10:11] a PC is inherently insecure still today [10:11] No real confinement for applications [10:12] apps using same data folders etc [10:12] Lets get rid of this [10:12] @NotKit [what is the device?], Redmi 7 (Android 9) [10:12] @Flohack [Lets get rid of this], I will, but give me alternative [10:12] @Lukapanio [I will, but give me alternative], Which one [10:12] except android and iOS [10:12] @Flohack [Which one], any [10:13] There arent any becausse traditional desktop cannot be fixed anymore. Its a mess especially in Windows ^^ [10:13] @Lukapanio I don't get your argument actually. UT is not preventing you from remounting rootfs RW and installing packages [10:14] @NotKit [@Lukapanio I don't get your argument actually. UT is not preventing you from rem …], Well it will conflict potentially with next OTA [10:14] but do you really get much software to install this way? [10:14] @Flohack [Well it will conflict potentially with next OTA], yes, but he can apt upgrade and update device parts manually [10:14] Well its software you can do everything yes [10:14] @NotKit [@Lukapanio I don't get your argument actually. UT is not preventing you from rem …], It is not about what i can. It is about model [10:14] Just saying UT will stay as it os, we think its a solid model for mobile devices [10:15] we're not advocating for this, but not preventing someone from doing it either [10:15] dĪpÉsH was added by: dĪpÉsH [10:15] @Flohack [Just saying UT will stay as it os, we think its a solid model for mobile devices], Libertine saves evrything a bit, but it is too slow and old [10:15] @Lukapanio [Libertine saves evrything a bit, but it is too slow and old], Then help improving it [10:15] Instead of complaining [10:16] @NotKit [@Lukapanio I don't get your argument actually. UT is not preventing you from rem …], It breakes UT's model [10:16] Libertine had support for LXC containers [10:16] @NotKit [Libertine had support for LXC containers], Yep a thing too look into [10:16] that can allow for 20.04 or even ArchLinux ARM container [10:16] As for me it have 2 problems: [10:17] 1.X.org only [10:17] 1 is not true. Lomiri already exposes Wayland socket [10:17] 2. Can it become so fast as native? [10:18] [Edit] 1) is not true. Lomiri already exposes Wayland socket [10:18] Whats not native about UT lol [10:18] 2) containers performance is native, there is no emulation involved. Xmir may be slow, but it should be fine if you get it to work with Wayland/XWayland at forst [10:18] @Flohack [Whats not native about UT lol], What would be faster ut with libhybris + lxc on top [10:18] [Edit] 2) containers performance is native, there is no emulation involved. Xmir may be slow, but it should be fine if you get it to work with Wayland/XWayland at worst [10:19] or just native app [10:19] see answer from Nikita [10:19] @NotKit [2) containers performance is native, there is no emulation involved. Xmir may be …], still we use phone, so resources are limited [10:19] libhybris is a thin layer no penalties there [10:19] @Flohack [libhybris is a thin layer no penalties there], indeed [10:19] in any case i will use it [10:20] What you are seeing is that Mir might not have all the fancy hw acceleration as in Android [10:20] * NotKit looks at 256 GB + 8 GB RAM Pro1-X [10:20] @NotKit [/me looks at 256 GB + 8 GB RAM Pro1-X], not every phone is pro 1x (that seems to be faster then my pc) [10:20] that can beat some still sold laptops [10:21] there is s3 neo :D (me looking at 1.5GB ram) [10:21] @NotKit [that can beat some still sold laptops], yep my lenovo e330 for example [10:21] @Lukapanio [there is s3 neo :D (me looking at 1.5GB ram)], Its a proof of concept dude ^^ [10:22] But still thanks, your answers helped me a bit [10:22] BTW it will land in installer this week [10:22] anyway I don't get what you're trying to achieve. Current situation is that rootfs can be remounted rw, but xenial base is rather outdated by now to install useful apps (like libhandy-based ones), so using container should be a better idea [10:23] you can experiment with manual LXC containers, also see harbour-containers app for Sailfish that does similar things [10:23] painful thing will be probably getting virtual keyboard inside, but not impossible [10:24] @Flohack [BTW it will land in installer this week], A big + for UT [10:24] @NotKit [painful thing will be probably getting virtual keyboard inside, but not impossib …], keyboard is kinda working in libertien [10:24] at least chroot one [10:26] @NotKit [anyway I don't get what you're trying to achieve. Current situation is that root …], ig if ubports want to save current model (i dont like it but anyway) both rootfs and libertien must get focal [10:29] it's not model but development effort problem [10:30] having rw rootfs won't magically update it to focal [10:32] @NotKit [having rw rootfs won't magically update it to focal], indeed it wount [10:55] About lxc @NotKit after few tests i would say it is missing packeges + permission problems [11:00] get up-to-date container working manually, then deal with Libertine I think [11:03] @Lukapanio [11:03] Fwd from kabouik: I made a more detailed video here @MrFoxhead: https://lbry.tv/@Kab:7/LXC_sailfishos_Pro1:b [11:04] that's pretty much possible on UT as well, it's just we're sometimes too busy telling people it won't work/not supported/etc [11:07] [Edit] from Pro1 group, that's pretty much possible on UT as well, it's just we're sometimes too busy telling people it won't work/not supported/etc [11:30] @NotKit [I made a more detailed video here @MrFoxhead: https://lbry.tv/@Kab:7/LXC_sailfis …], as for me it sounds strange to have phone gui and still run xfce ... but yep thanks will look at it, interested in lxc part [11:32] @Lukapanio [it gives a bit of stability and takes much usefull things], what does the ro rootfs take away for you? [11:34] @Lukapanio [So if user install random stuff on PC and it cant boot it is ok], installing random stuff is not an issuue actually [11:35] @Fuseteam [what does the ro rootfs take away for you?], classical linux packege management ? [11:39] hmm maybe but there more to it then that [11:39] as you said phone have limited resources [11:40] Are there device specific groups on telegram for Ubuntu? Just checking. :) [11:40] most phones have a limited storage for example [11:41] @Boris Mihailov [Are there device specific groups on telegram for Ubuntu? Just checking. :)], Xperia X in German. Also Pinephone [11:41] @Stereofont [Xperia X in German. Also Pinephone], Eh, should have learned German in school. Okay, thanks. :) [11:42] @Lukapanio [classical linux packege management ?], i guess you just want to install from the ubuntu repo? or is there more to it? [11:42] @Lukapanio [classical linux packege management ?], [Edit] i guess you just want to install from the ubuntu repos? or is there more to it? [11:43] you know before canonical officially dropped it... was ubuntu touch ever supposed to run snaps? or were we always destined for clicks [11:44] for context the rootfs on mine _is_ rw but i can see many benefits for ro [11:44] [Edit] for context the rootfs on mine is rw but i can see many benefits for ro [11:44] Giupeste was added by: Giupeste [11:44] i probably should make a forum post about it [11:46] @Fuseteam [i guess you just want to install from the ubuntu repos? or is there more to it?], both [11:46] ```lxc-start 20201112114440.160 ERROR lxc_cgfs - cgroups/cgfs.c:lxc_cgroupfs_create:906 - Could not find writable mount point for cgroup hierarchy 9 while trying t … o create cgroup. … lxc-start 20201112114440.161 ERROR lxc_cgfs - cgroups/cgfs.c:cgroup_rmdir:209 - Device or resource busy - Failed to delete /dev/cpuset//lxc/a [11:46] ndroid … lxc-start 20201112114440.161 ERROR lxc_cgfs - cgroups/cgfs.c:cgroup_rmdir:209 - Device or resource busy - Failed to delete /dev/cpuset//lxc … lxc-start 20201112114440.162 ERROR lxc_cgfs - cgroups/cgfs.c:cgroup_rmdir:209 - Device or resource busy - Failed to delete /dev/cpuset//user.slice/user-0.slice/ … session-c2.scope`` [11:46] ` @NotKit any idea? [11:46] r/o rootfs is fine as long as you are able to control it in some way (see nixos and other distros using a vaguely similar model), or if the OS is built to be useable without touching root... i cant really imagine what i want to do with ubports in the rootfs [11:47] not sure what good it'd do me, except give me the ability to break things i dont need to be breaking [11:47] @Lukapanio [classical linux packege management ?], last ping/question if i told you there may be a way to install applications that are packaged for traditional linux on a ro rootfs; would you be interested? [11:49] @PiecerEdd [r/o rootfs is fine as long as you are able to control it in some way (see nixos …], yes this, i think we could work on getting something like the nix package manager supported [11:49] you can install nix on sailfish, as well as android in termux, would be interesting [11:50] not sure if its a viable alternative to libertine or whatever [11:50] i think it an viable option for cli apps [11:51] it would be awesome to actually run nixos itself on a mobile though, with the configuration.nix and everything (yes i know a pipe dream, though i think there is a pinephone image!) [11:51] libertine is more for x apps imo [11:51] @Fuseteam [last ping/question if i told you there may be a way to install applications that …], libertien [11:51] ik [11:51] or remount rw and install cli apps [11:52] so if libertine "just worked" would you be fine with it? [11:52] i would... i run android in a similar sort of fashion, containerizing proprietary crap and only firing them up when i need to 😆' [11:53] lol [11:53] @Fuseteam [so if libertine "just worked" would you be fine with it?], As for now, i am working on broken lxc with some TheKit's help so probably [11:53] @Fuseteam [so if libertine "just worked" would you be fine with it?], [Edit] As for now, i am working on broken lxc with some TheKit's help, so probably [11:54] i'm looking into what people that want a rw rootfs want to do that requires rw [11:54] [Edit] i'm looking into what people that want a rw rootfs want to do that requires rootfs rw [11:54] @Lukapanio sudo start cgroupfs-lite [11:55] so far it comes down to either just "installing traditional packages" or "its ubuntu therefore apt must work" [11:55] @Fuseteam [i'm looking into what people that want a rw rootfs want to do that requires root …], well most people probably expect UT to work like a regular linux distro [11:56] @hacker12455 [well most people probably expect UT to work like a regular linux distro], what does that mean tho [11:56] well working apt [11:56] for one [11:56] only "working apt"? what else? [11:57] @NotKit [@Lukapanio sudo start cgroupfs-lite], Thanks. start cgroup-lite* [11:57] @Fuseteam [only "working apt"? what else?], probably only this [11:57] not sure what other people would want [11:58] but from what I see that is one of the expectations [11:59] An old-style package manager doesn't make a distro "real" GNU/Linux. This misconception is starting to make me angry. [11:59] So @NotKit current status. Lxc container can be created from root, with rw rootfs [11:59] it can start, with broken network [11:59] i can attach to it [12:00] @fredldotme [An old-style package manager doesn't make a distro "real" GNU/Linux. This miscon …], agreed but from what i can tell that's the main reason people want a rw rootfs [12:00] in this case it is ubuntu focal [12:01] It's what people are used to, not necessarily what is better for stability reasons. But people are probably willing to shoot themselves in the foot, like literally with a gun, if that's all they know. [12:01] Graphitenet was added by: Graphitenet [12:02] @fredldotme [It's what people are used to, not necessarily what is better for stability reaso …], hmm i think its more that they want to install a random ubuntu package and run into the ro rootfs [12:03] @Fuseteam [hmm i think its more that they want to install a random ubuntu package and run i …], Right, but why install something on a device that isn't fit for the job? The interface for example is completely unfitting for desktop or CLI apps. [12:03] It starts to sound like a theological argument. If we are getting into religious differences maybe it should move to overflow 🤔 [12:03] Right [12:04] i agree on desktop apps on a small screen but there are some nice uses for cli apps [12:04] is it? [12:05] @Lukapanio [classical linux packege management ?], Just another item why this is bad on the phone: You wear out your flash. apt has much more writes to the SD than if you just flash an OTA. Plus its much slower [12:05] its still about ut just about why people find the ro an issue in the first place [12:05]