[15:46] <StevenJayCohen> Hi guys! Long time, no see! I have a design question for the Studio team. Some of the audio plugins have app icons (Example: Calf, LSP). But, these are not applications. I cannot click on them to use them. So, isn't it "breaking" a UX paradigm to even have these icons appear along side apps in any desktop environment?
[16:25] <OvenWerks> StevenJayCohen: A) those icons point to the JACK client form of the plugin which are actually Apps and launchable so long as Jack is running. This is why they come with desktop files in the first place.
[16:26] <OvenWerks> StevenJayCohen: B) we are removing most of these menu items... should have been done in fact (at least the LSP ones)
[16:28] <OvenWerks> StevenJayCohen: C) We no longer support or suggest using Calf plugins.. so if you install those on their own they may make a mess. we only have so much time to spend on manually making menu items vanish ;)
[16:30] <OvenWerks> problems with Calf plugins include:
[16:31] <OvenWerks> A) UI uses system libs causing the application using the plugin to crash at odd time
[16:32] <OvenWerks> B) the DSP is poor quality
[16:32] <OvenWerks> C) the controls can not be automated (changed on the fly) because they are not "dezippered"
[16:32] <OvenWerks> D) the controls do not do what they say they do
[16:34] <OvenWerks> E) At least one plugin can produce very loud audio (+100 dB) which in some studio environments can damage ears or equipment.
[16:36] <OvenWerks> StevenJayCohen: there are still uses for Calf plugins... if someone uses the poor DSP for a particular effect (see Ufna's videos for example)
[16:37] <OvenWerks> however, as Ubuntu in general and ubuntustudio as well, are often used by people who are new to linux as well as new to recording. We want the plugins they meet first to be the best quality we can find
[16:39] <OvenWerks> So they can train their ears to what a particular effect (Eq, comp, etc.) should sound like and would sound like in a profesional studio.
[16:39] <OvenWerks> Or if using a hardware mixing console.
[16:40] <OvenWerks> s/Ufna's/Unfa's/
[16:41] <OvenWerks> https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCAYKj_peyESIMDp5LtHlH2A?feature=emb_ch_name_ex
[16:42] <OvenWerks> StevenJayCohen: see this link ^^^ for some abuse of plugins for effects :)
[16:43] <StevenJayCohen> <OvenWerks "Steven Jay Cohen: B) we are remo"> I still see them, at least in gnome.
[16:44] <OvenWerks> gnome has broken menuing
[16:44] <OvenWerks> gnome has decided to leave the freedesktop standard and do things their own way
[16:45] <StevenJayCohen> I have a feeling that they will be reversing course within a year
[16:45] <OvenWerks> StevenJayCohen: you can if you like, remove the desktop files
[16:45] <StevenJayCohen> Thanks for the info, it all makes sense
[16:46] <StevenJayCohen> I know that 🙂 I was wondering about the plugins, most of which I am using as VSTs because of reaper.
[16:48] <OvenWerks> It would be nice if the packages were split into ladspa, lv2, vst2, vst3, jack client and one could only install whichever one they wanted.
[16:49] <StevenJayCohen> It looks that way in apt, but you're right they all install the Jack part (which has the icons). Is it a real dependency?
[16:50]  * StevenJayCohen uploaded an image: image.png (6KiB) < https://matrix.org/_matrix/media/r0/download/matrix.org/wTLqIqOYdZYKSYEFAZvTMGEN/image.png >
[16:50] <OvenWerks> If you use synaptic or apt to remove it, it should show a list of things it will want to remove with the option to not...
[16:50] <StevenJayCohen> Yep, when I try to remove it, it want to take the VST with it
[16:52] <OvenWerks> I am not sure if this is A) a debian choice, B) an Eickmeyer[m] choice, C) baked into the upstream build
[16:53] <OvenWerks> but I would guess the DSP lib is a part of the jack package
[16:54] <OvenWerks> oops, I just pinged Eickmeyer[m] :)
[16:56] <OvenWerks> StevenJayCohen: reaper is moving towards VST3? (or has already I would guess) Ardour now also supports VST3 and the Licence owner is pushing everyone to drop VST2 support
[16:56] <StevenJayCohen> Reaper has both VST2 and VST3 support
[16:56] <OvenWerks> including issuing "takedown" notices to github vst2 projects
[16:57] <StevenJayCohen> Reaper supports a lot of very outdated OSes, so I doubt they will remove it if they don't need to
[16:57] <OvenWerks> I fuggured
[16:57] <OvenWerks> figgured
[16:58]  * OvenWerks can't spell this morning... needs coffee
[16:58] <StevenJayCohen> I've been using Carla to use a few old windows VSTs that I like, and I was poking around looking for some linux native alternatives.
[16:59] <StevenJayCohen> OvenWerks: If I posted a few links, do you think you might be able to point me toward some native alternatives?
[17:00] <OvenWerks> JUCE allows making plugins as lv2/vst2/3/jack and win/mac/linux
[17:00] <OvenWerks> A lot of people go that route now
[17:00] <OvenWerks> honestly, I don't use more than a few plugins
[17:00] <OvenWerks> EQ and comp mostly
[17:01] <OvenWerks> (oh and reverb)
[17:01] <StevenJayCohen> Same here.
[17:01] <StevenJayCohen> I loved these on mac and win: https://www.tokyodawn.net/tokyo-dawn-labs/
[17:01] <OvenWerks> x42 has the best eq I think
[17:01] <StevenJayCohen> This one is nice: https://wavearts.com/products/plugins/tube-saturator-vintage/
[17:01] <StevenJayCohen> These are surprisingly good: https://klanghelm.com/contents/freeware.html
[17:02] <StevenJayCohen> And that's it. If I could replace those, I'd be happy :)
[17:02] <OvenWerks> The place to ask is #opensourcemusicians and #ardour and the LAU mailing list I think.
[17:03] <StevenJayCohen> on the x42 site now... nice!
[17:03] <OvenWerks> You are more likely to find people who have used those plugins there
[17:04] <OvenWerks> also the Ardour forums
[17:04] <OvenWerks> https://discourse.ardour.org/
[17:05] <StevenJayCohen> I appreciate the info. I know that this is offtopic for the channel.
[17:05] <StevenJayCohen> Thanks for taking the time to point me in the right direction.
[17:06] <OvenWerks> There are not a lot of places to look.
[17:07] <StevenJayCohen> true, if only plugins were platform independent.
[17:12] <OvenWerks> platform independance is not scalable.
[17:13] <OvenWerks> for a 20 plugin project it is not a problem but for a 1000 plugin project (yes they exist) it won't work (maybe even 100plugin projects which are much more common than one might think)
[17:13] <StevenJayCohen> I gy can dream though ;)
[17:13] <StevenJayCohen> *guy
[17:14] <StevenJayCohen> Oh, I do know that they exist
[17:14] <OvenWerks> a track with two or three vocals two guitar tracks and bass can already hit 20 plugins
[17:15] <OvenWerks> and that is no synths
[17:15] <StevenJayCohen> I can hit 100 plugins on a 1 hour radio drama
[17:15] <OvenWerks>  ;)
[17:15] <StevenJayCohen> processing characters for locations/etc
[17:15] <OvenWerks> yup, makes sense
[17:15] <StevenJayCohen> throw in some space creatures and people on telephones
[17:20]  * StevenJayCohen uploaded an image: image.png (6KiB) < https://matrix.org/_matrix/media/r0/download/matrix.org/UuilDeQjvZCeYwsbiDzrzMus/image.png >
[17:20] <StevenJayCohen> Okay, this is odd LSP allows LADSPA without Jack but not VST without Jack
[17:21] <OvenWerks> no help to you though
[17:22] <StevenJayCohen> It does make me wonder if the Jack requirement on the VSTs is an oversight
[17:22] <OvenWerks> you can use dpkg to remove the jack package and see if the VSTs still work.
[17:23] <StevenJayCohen> true, I'll give it a shot after the next session
[17:26] <OvenWerks> I am sure Eickmeyer[m] will notice this and answer about that later.