[16:06] <Eickmeyer[m]> Steven Jay Cohen: So, about stuff cluttering-up the GNOME dashboard... there's a command that should clean that up for you so long as you have installed ubuntustudio-menu. Let me figure out what that is....
[16:07] <Eickmeyer[m]> Try this: gsettings reset org.gnome.shell app-picker-layout 
[16:08] <Eickmeyer[m]> That might do it, but I think there's another one. I'd have to open-up a gnome install sometime. :)
[16:40] <StevenJayCohen> Eickmeyer: I collected all of the plugin icons into a Plugins folder (which makes sense for Gnome). They still do come up when I hit the Logo Key and start a search, but that command you left me does in fact clean things up a bit.
[16:41] <StevenJayCohen> Eickmeyer: Is the reason that the LSP VSTs require the Jack versions (but the LADSPA versions don't) connected to the custom VST UIs?
[16:48] <StevenJayCohen> <Eickmeyer[m] "That *might* do it, but I think "> I don't mind being "that Gnome guy." It just turned out that my workflow didn't require KDE at all, so it didn't feel necessary to go that route. I'd be open to switching to something like Budgie if there was a compelling reason. But, right now I feel like the 2 UI teams with the most "pull" are the KDE team and the Gnome team. So, if a different GTK desktop
[16:48] <StevenJayCohen> were to be honestly displacing Gnome in adoption, I'd switch.
[16:50] <Eickmeyer[m]> Steven Jay Cohen: It has to do with a shared library that I had initially pieced-out to a lsp-plugins-common package, but that was supplanted when Debian took-over maintainership.
[16:51] <OvenWerks> StevenJayCohen: certainly you are welcome to use gnome... I find so many of the ideas in gnome just make my work harder.
[16:52] <OvenWerks> StevenJayCohen: My mind does not work well with the whole search based application start idea. I need a menu... and not a broken, non-standard one. The gnome team's we know best attitude when presented with fault's in their design doesn't help.
[16:52] <Eickmeyer[m]> Honestly, I like the GNOME desktop, but for my purposes Plasma is just better. (KDE is the name of the development community, not the desktop). Also, I've been hired by the Kubuntu Focus project (kfocus.org) to do their packaging and UX, so there's that.
[16:53] <StevenJayCohen> <OvenWerks "Steven Jay Cohen: certainly you "> I watched a video where the youtuber finally got me to "grok" gnome (can't remember the channel). But, before that, I found it awkward too.
[16:54] <StevenJayCohen> Eickmeyer: Right, I was a KDE user back in the early 2000s (before plasma) on SuSE. I haven't broken the habit of calling Plasma by the KDE name. :)
[16:55] <StevenJayCohen> > <@freenode_OvenWerks:matrix.org> Steven Jay Cohen: certainly you are welcome to use gnome... I find so many of the ideas in gnome just make my work harder.
[16:55] <StevenJayCohen>  * I watched a video where a youtuber finally got me to "grok" gnome (can't remember the channel). But, before that, I found it awkward too.
[16:55] <Eickmeyer[m]> Steven Jay Cohen: Yeah, most people haven't. :)
[16:55] <OvenWerks> The other big problem for me with gnome is the removale of the window decorations, or the forcing me to use whatever window decorations they choose. The one they choose makes it hard to quickly see which window has focus. Gnome seems to have jumped on the convergence bandwagon and that is probably the right way to go for most people
[16:56] <StevenJayCohen> Yeah, not an issue for my workflow -- Reaper, Chrome, FoxIt Reader, Carla, Studio Control. That's it for me, really.
[16:56] <OvenWerks> gnome has become a single application at a time DE, for those of us used to using many wndows at a time, it is painful
[16:58] <OvenWerks> Eickmeyer[m]: re:  https://github.com/ovenwerks/studio-controls/issues/26
[16:58] <StevenJayCohen> OvenWerks: I'm usually running Reaper and Evince (or FoxIt) side by side as I record. The un-focused window is greyed out but can still be scrolled. I'm not sure what else you'd need so I don't get the window decoration comment.
[16:58] <OvenWerks> I am not sure where such a line would go
[16:59] <Eickmeyer[m]> OvenWerks: And neither am I. :D
[16:59] <Eickmeyer[m]> I'd imagine somewhere in the init.
[16:59] <OvenWerks> StevenJayCohen: A different colour title bar would be excelent. mearly greying out things is almost invisible
[17:00] <StevenJayCohen> OvenWerks: Guessing that all my years on a mac (same behaviour) make me not notice it.
[17:01] <OvenWerks> StevenJayCohen: if you look at the original Motif style window decorations, which predate the mac I think, the window decorations and uses are pretty clearly defined
[17:01] <StevenJayCohen> And, I agree -- it is all about convergence. When I see a DE that does convergence better (instead of fighting it and trying to define retro but pretty), I'll consider it :)
[17:02] <OvenWerks> StevenJayCohen: in my opinion, a desktop computer (or even laptop) should use a DE style that is best suited for a desktop not a phone.
[17:03]  * OvenWerks is very much against convergence
[17:03] <Eickmeyer[m]> Speaking of convergence, there's this: https://kde.org/announcements/pinephone-plasma-mobile-edition/
[17:04] <StevenJayCohen> OvenWerks: Yep, I get that. I'm accepting that we are in an evolutionary moment. And I understand why a DE might not want to be behind the curve as things evolve.
[17:05] <OvenWerks> I think that a hamer should be the best hammer it can be rather than working like a screwdriver because more people know how to use a screw driver
[17:06] <StevenJayCohen> I never buy a laptop with a touchscreen because I expect to type in a laptop. So, I understand your point of view.
[17:07] <StevenJayCohen> You could simply stop at saying that Gnome does not fit the workflow that you have developed over the years. That would be 100% true OvenWerks. It would be an un-arguable fact.
[17:08] <OvenWerks> StevenJayCohen: having a laptop with a foldaway keyboard that can also be used as a tablet is an ok place to use a touch screen. Having said that, most of todays laptops seem to be a tablet with a wireless keyboard
[17:09] <StevenJayCohen> OvenWerks: and that is the argument for why the UI should support both usecases -- ie Convergence :D
[17:09] <StevenJayCohen> Now, if you prefer 2 distinct UIs that sense the devices orientation, cool!
[17:10] <OvenWerks> StevenJayCohen: no, I think that gnome limits the usefulness of a desktop computer to a point that most people would simply select a tablet with a keyboard because a desktop serves no purpose
[17:10] <StevenJayCohen> Other people will prefer cnsistent behavior regardless of whether or not there is a keyboard connected
[17:11] <OvenWerks> plasma allows both workflows by changing settings, gnome forces only one.
[17:11] <StevenJayCohen> Yeah, not what I am seeing. We tested all of the Ubuntu flavors here before deciding on installing Studio into Gnome. Now, granted, there are more Mac users in this bunch than anything else. But, they liked Gnome best at that point.
[17:13] <StevenJayCohen> I totally get that you prefer a toggle between 2 distinct experiences OvenWerks -- that makes sense for your workflow.
[17:14] <StevenJayCohen> An FYI, they all hated ElementaryOS when I showed it to them.
[17:14] <OvenWerks> I use one workflow and I expect a DE _not_ to remove the possibility to at least change settings to schieve that
[17:14] <OvenWerks> *achieve
[17:16] <StevenJayCohen> Again, these are best presented as reasons why you do not like Gnome (or that you prefer Plasma) as opposed to what is wrong with Gnome.
[17:17] <OvenWerks> The availability of changing a DE to the user's preference is something every DE should have.
[17:17] <OvenWerks> (including windows and mac)
[17:18] <OvenWerks> It is a place where linux based DE could excel
[17:18] <StevenJayCohen> Yeah, this is no longer constructive.
[17:18] <StevenJayCohen> Have a good day
[17:18] <OvenWerks> Two one track minds :)
[17:20] <Eickmeyer[m]> Steven Jay Cohen: I didn't see this as an argument, you two have been very civil in your discussion. :)
[17:21] <Eickmeyer[m]> I have a lot of UX disagreements with OvenWerks , but at the end of the day, we want the same thing.
[17:21] <OvenWerks> Eickmeyer[m]: the pinephone store still does not mention the KDE edition. They show the Manjaro edition
[17:25] <OvenWerks> I think the Manjaro edition also defaults to plasma though.
[17:29] <OvenWerks> I am guessing the next run of pinephones will be the KDE edition
[17:30] <OvenWerks> Each run gets a different "OS" (distro?)
[17:33] <Eickmeyer[m]> No clue.
[17:38] <OvenWerks> Eickmeyer[m]: I am wondering if the self.set_default_icon_name('studio-controls') should be self.window_main.set_default_icon_name('studio-controls')
[17:39] <OvenWerks> I have no way of testing either one as this already works with on plasma
[18:09] <Eickmeyer[m]> OvenWerks: Might be worth spinning-up a VM with MATE, or asking the bug reporter.
[20:00] <OvenWerks> Eickmeyer[m]: self.set_default_icon_name('studio-controls') errors out, it seems self does not have such function ;) but self.window_main.set_default_icon_name('studio-controls') does not casue trouble nor does it stop plasma from showing the icon... so I will leave it in.
[20:01] <OvenWerks> Eickmeyer[m]: it will be a while before it shows up in the repo though as I am part way through some other things
[20:05] <Eickmeyer[m]> OvenWerks: That's fine. :)