[00:00] <Profetik777> kc2bez that would be great if you could hook it up. 
[00:01] <Profetik777> Re:codimd or whatever the new name is these days
[02:26] <kc2bez[m]> <Profetik777 "kc2bez that would be great if yo"> Sure, just shoot me a PM with your email address and I will see that you get setup.
[02:52] -lugito:#lubuntu-devel- [T187: Lubuntu 20.04.2] guiverc (Chris Guiver) commented on the task: https://phab.lubuntu.me/T187#4160
[03:23] <guiverc2> we're a week before 20.04.2 releases, I expected to see 5.8 kernel on daily about now..
[03:25] <kc2bez[m]> I assume you saw the chat in support guiverc2
[03:26] <guiverc2> thanks kc2bez[m] , not really; noticed it was 5.4/5.8 related... loads of stuff about that recent weeks... but I'll read it thanks..
[03:27] <kc2bez[m]> It seems folks are now seeing 5.8 on updates. is the TL;DR
 and have been for a few weeks
 kc2bez: ^
 kc2bez: Ask Ubuntu is the reason I noticed it, and I've been triaging the chaos
[03:30] <kc2bez[m]> Oh, I know. It is bizarre
[03:30] <kc2bez[m]> Like Chris mentioned, why isn't it in the daily?
 ask the release team?
 unless BECAUSE of the insane regressions they haven't added it to the daily
[03:54] <wxl[m]> When did who first identify the cause and why didn't they notify somewhere public? 
[03:55] <wxl[m]> <lubot "[telegram] <teward001> unless BE"> In one bug report someone said the .8 packages suddenly disappeared from the repos
[03:58] <kc2bez[m]> I don't know where I noticed it first, it was noticed widely by then. Interesting .8 disappeared but it makes sense too.
 I wouldn't be surprised if 5.8 was yanked after all the choas
 especially after I escalated it to a TB problem
 but there's a TON of regressions so...
[04:10] <wxl> @TheLoudSpeaker you going to stick that MPTCP kernel in a PPA? :D
 the BIG problem is not that the 5.8 kernel was made available but that systems installed on the bare 20.04 image and 20.04.1 image are now forced to use the HWE stack as it becomes available
[04:10] <guiverc> it's on Ubuntu dailies if I recall correctly; just not Lubuntu.   I've quoted the 20.04 release notes in a number of reports (desktop follows HWE) eg. https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/ubuntu-meta/+bug/1911614 but my own 20.04 systems still use 5.4 unlike Ubuntu DEsktop users   
 and THAT is what is causing system problems.
[04:11] <wxl> what's the difference @teward001?
[04:12] <theloudspeaker> <wxl "@TheLoudSpeaker you going to sti"> Gladly. One sec.
 wxl: PREVIOUSLY you wouldn't be forced to use the hwe stack
 and so those installed with 20.04 base or 20.04.1 would have the kernels in *that* installer / version
[04:13] <theloudspeaker> <lubot "[telegram] <teward001> wxl: PREV"> +1. I miss thoss good old days. :) 
 there'd be a separate optional HWE stack
[04:13] <guiverc> teward001 FYI, my lubuntu 20.04 installed systems still use 5.4 ... lubuntu 20.04.2 daily (current) still uses 5.4 kernel  (not so with ubuntu 20.04 desktop)
[04:13] <wxl> but i mean if everyone chose that option, we'd still have the same issues
 but that's why it wasn't an easily selectable option
 unless you specifically installed the HWE stack
[04:14] <theloudspeaker> ^^
[04:14] <guiverc> 20.04 desktop tracked the HWE desktop; release notes announced that  (but not Lubuntu)
[04:14]  * theloudspeaker who installs hwe-edge stack. XD
 THAT is the change - you have no choice but to go with the HWE stack, unless you're like me with a buttload of rules in place in apt pinning to block installation of newer stacks without admin intervention
 to quote the core Ubuntu release notes:
 > Ubuntu Desktop flavour now always tracks HWE kernel (hardware enablement). It means that from around the time of the 20.04.2 release Ubuntu Desktop will gain new major kernel versions every 6 months through to summer of 2022, even if you installed Ubuntu earlier than this.
[04:15] <wxl> interesting. i didn't know we elected a different path but i'm glad we did (as i am with not installing the core snap)
 yep
 BUT this is going to cause problems for everyone ;)
[04:16] <wxl> groovy folks aren't having the same problems?
 in any case someone installs the HWE stack by accident or incidentally with another update, then they're going to have the explosions.
[04:17] <guiverc> I've seen TONS of 5.8 complaints on support sites (askubu, uf, irc..)   I've not seen that many groovy support queries, but there are fewer groovy users, so maybe I'd not notice wxl
[04:21] <wxl> https://askubuntu.com/a/1305819/237241 ouch 
 yeah it's on the list
[04:22] <guiverc> thanks wxl 
 there's TONS of DKMS packages that're broke
[04:23] <theloudspeaker> amdgpu was one of the first ones.
[04:23] <theloudspeaker> Proprietary amdgpu package i mean.
[04:24] <theloudspeaker> Tho we did have a better amdgpu module in the tree since 5.7 so..
[04:25] <wxl> so the issue is related to compatibility with other packages, then? i.e. the whole issue is bad freaking process???
[04:33] <wxl> here's a nice summary https://askubuntu.com/a/1306392/237241
[04:34] <wxl> upvote the heck out of that
[04:42] <theloudspeaker> wxl that kernel I built was by cloning mptcp tree and running make deb-pkg
[04:42] <wxl> wow nice
[04:42] <theloudspeaker> Now when I try to run debuild -S to get the source.changes file. I get errors saying unreprentable changes to source. Which I don't want to spend time fixing.
[04:43] <wxl> https://www.reddit.com/r/Ubuntu/comments/ks9lb9/was_the_hwe_kernel_upgrade_to_version_58_supposed/
[04:43] <theloudspeaker> I have the built packages on a github repo. That works for you?
[04:43] <wxl> sure!
[04:44] <theloudspeaker> https://github.com/the-loudspeaker/raspi-mptcp-kernel/tree/debian-packages
[04:44] <theloudspeaker> Gotta update the readme now. No longer under testing. Has been working fine. XD
[04:47] <theloudspeaker> <wxl "here's a nice summary https://as"> For me a 5.4 update from ubuntu broke drivers sooo.. I'd say stick with 5.8. XD coz installing hwe-edge stack fixed my problems. 😛
[04:47] <wxl> hehehehe
[04:51] <theloudspeaker> <wxl "https://www.reddit.com/r/Ubuntu/"> Oooof!
[04:54] <The_LoudSpeaker> MPTCP team isn't excited or eager to release the next MPTCP kernel tho. They are focusing more on upstream implementation. I.e merging it into the Linux kernel. As such 5.10 has almost all of MPTCP features.
[04:54] <wxl> The_LoudSpeaker: so how in particular have you personally benefitted from it?
[04:55] <The_LoudSpeaker> Have a project related to MPTCP in college. Built the kernel specifically for that. 
[04:56] <wxl> no measurable differences in throughput?
[04:56] <The_LoudSpeaker> There are. 
[04:58] <wxl> well that's what i'm saying. come on and sell it raman! XD
[04:58] <The_LoudSpeaker> 😂😂
[04:59] <The_LoudSpeaker> Too lazy to pitch.
[04:59] <wxl> jimminy christmas. kids these days.
[04:59] <The_LoudSpeaker> XD
[05:00] <The_LoudSpeaker> If you do plan to try that kernel, you should follow this after installing: https://multipath-tcp.org/pmwiki.php/Users/ConfigureRouting
[05:00] <The_LoudSpeaker> ^ wxl
[05:01] <The_LoudSpeaker> Also, change the scheduler maybe. I might have put it to redundant for testing purposes. 
[05:02] <The_LoudSpeaker> It's all there on the MPTCP website. Under configure MPTCP section.
[05:15] <wxl> this vbox bug clearly identified problems with the 5.8 hwe kernel in OCTOBER https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/virtualbox/+bug/1901904
[05:21] <guiverc> sorry can 1773610 be flipped back to triaged... it referred to cosmic/disco so I EOL'd it.. I've just confirmed it still applies focal so needs flip back to triage, sorry..
[05:21] <guiverc> https://bugs.launchpad.net/calamares/+bug/1773610
[05:24] <wxl> guiverc: done
[05:24] <guiverc> thanks wxl :)
[05:40] <wxl> this is the best written bug i've seen on the problem and guiverc was involved in it https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/ubuntu-meta/+bug/1911614
[05:41] <wxl> it's a little late relative to all this other stuff, though
[05:42] <wxl> i love how bdmurray confirms it in a 20.04(.0) and then sil2100 says it's expected behavior and literally links to the very section that describes the problem: new major kernel versions weren't supposed to come until later (20.04.2 and beyond)
[05:44] <wxl> and if they DID intend to release it early but failed to document it that STILL doesn't explain why they didn't see these issues coming. that's either a case of not following the process or not having a good one.
[06:18] <guiverc> wxl; I just reversed myself.. (another test),  I consider https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/calamares/+bug/1773610 incomplete again & marked as such.. sorry  (one you flipped to triaged for me)
[06:20] <wxl> guiverc: so you're saying it's fixed in focal?
[06:22] <guiverc> I look again, and could NOT replicate it.. yep appears clear to me "New Partition" is how it represents a FORMATTED partition... it's /dev/sda2 on a KEEP selection.. Just doesn't use the word "Format"
[06:22] <guiverc> s/look/looked
[06:23] <guiverc> i removed focal tag, my ref on iso.qa.ubu to it. etc
[06:23] <wxl> guiverc: that's remarkable given the upstream bug is uunmoved
[06:23] <wxl> i'll pop open a vm and confirm
[06:29] <guiverc> yeah I know... there is a bug there I'm sure... I had strange (inconsistent) behavior I've noted before.. the selected format kept being UNTICKED; until I changed XFS to reiserfs, then back to my wanted XFS (what I was testing)
[06:42] <guiverc> let me know what you find.. I'm tired & may have mis-understood what the bug was about.. (maybe why I said I could re-create; but a later time couldn't..)
[06:42]  * guiverc is tired... you should be asleep I bet
[06:42] <wxl> to be fair i am too and i just got distracted by this clonezilla bittorrent article i just found
[06:43] <wxl> yeah it's pretty much end of the night for me, so perhaps this will wait until tomorrow but i'll let you know either way
[06:44] <guiverc> anyway, good news is focal.2 checklist has been completed.. only have later dailies replacing prior tests..  (will be repeated tomorrow's standup)
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[06:45] <wxl> excellent!
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[17:00] <RyuKurisu[m]> <wxl "to be fair i am too and i just g"> What article? 😊
[17:14] <wxl[m]> RyuKurisu https://prog2017.rmll.info/programme/cote-serveur-complexite-des-enjeux/system-deployment-using-bittorrent?lang=en
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[17:56] <KGIII> I may be a little late getting to the meeting, but I shouldn't be all that late. 
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[18:15] <KGIII> Update: I convinced the wife that tomorrow is a better day. So, I'll be here.
[18:21] <kc2bez[m]> Sounds good, KGIII see you here in a bit.
[18:31] <wxl> RyuKurisu[m]: also this https://clonezilla.org/lecture-materials/021_LSM_2017/talk/LSM2017-clonezilla-v2.2.pdf
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[19:32] -lugito:#lubuntu-devel- [T191: figure out file check] wxl (Walter Lapchynski) commented on the task: https://phab.lubuntu.me/T191#4161
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[20:44] <wxl> @kc2bez: i have in my old todo soemting about adding smartmontools to cala because it runs smartctl. does that sound familiar?
 vaguely smartmontools might have been needed to be added to the seed, I think cala logs show that they check smart data if it exists. I'd have to look at a recent log and run a test to verify.
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[21:01] <wxl> @kc2bez: would you be so kind as to follow up on that and make a task and/or fix it as needed?
[21:02] <kc2bez> I have it noted.
[21:02] <wxl> thx!
[21:03] <kc2bez> !standup
[21:03] <wxl> yo
 here
[21:03] <KGIII> Yup.
 *shoves a ball of molten rock into wxl's lap*
[21:03]  * wxl kindly places the rock on teward's hea
[21:03] <wxl> d
 *hands kc2bez a bill for how much it cost to make the molten rock*
 lol
[21:04]  * kc2bez pays in monopoly money
[21:04] <wxl> shall i go?
[21:04] <kc2bez> sounds good
[21:05] <teward> *erases wxl*
[21:05] <wxl> to start huge paste is here to reference but i'll break it down piece by piece so we have it in the logs https://paste.ubuntu.com/p/9P24wqZZkt/
[21:05] <wxl> * BUG TRIAGE * Set old bugs as incomplete. Likely invalid at this point. * Triaged bug 1912841 about Win+Space keyboard layout switching not working with some layouts. * Commented on expired bug 1905483 to user complaining about long-resolved issue. * Commented on bug 1910934 which seems invalid. * Commented on and deduped bug 1899782 which seems invalid.
[21:05] <wxl>  * Triaged bug 1875774 about lxqt-policykit crashing. * Helped guiverc with a little triaging of bug 1773610 which still exists. * Marked bug 1865955 about esp flag fix released.
[21:05] <wxl> ugh that went weird
[21:05] <wxl> oh well :/
[21:05] <wxl>  * TASKS
[21:05] <wxl>    * Commented on implementation of minimal install.
[21:05] <wxl>      * https://phab.lubuntu.me/T58#4082
[21:05] <wxl>    * Created a task to add keyboard layout flag to Hippo.
[21:05] <wxl>      * https://phab.lubuntu.me/T186
[21:05] -lugito:#lubuntu-devel- [Medium, Open] consider minimal install: https://phab.lubuntu.me/T58#4082
[21:05] <wxl>    * Triaged KGIII's task to add ksystemlog to the seed.
[21:05] -lugito:#lubuntu-devel- [Medium, Open] add keyboard layout flag: https://phab.lubuntu.me/T186
[21:05] <wxl>      * https://phab.lubuntu.me/T188
[21:05] -lugito:#lubuntu-devel- [Medium, Open] Add kystemlog to the default install.: https://phab.lubuntu.me/T188
[21:05] <wxl>    * Created a task to rename Openbox config.
[21:05] <wxl>      * https://phab.lubuntu.me/T189
[21:05] -lugito:#lubuntu-devel- [Unbreak Now!, Open] change name of Openbox config: https://phab.lubuntu.me/T189
[21:05] <wxl>    * Created a task to include file check status in Calamares Apport hook.
[21:05] <wxl>      * https://phab.lubuntu.me/T190
[21:05] -lugito:#lubuntu-devel- [High, Open] update Calamares Apport hook for file check status: https://phab.lubuntu.me/T190
[21:05] <wxl>    * Created a task to figure out file check skipping.
[21:05] <wxl>      * https://phab.lubuntu.me/T191
[21:05] -lugito:#lubuntu-devel- [Medium, Open] figure out file check: https://phab.lubuntu.me/T191
[21:05] <wxl>    * Set up profetik777 with access to our WordPress, as they have lots of cool marketing ideas.
 lets not alter anything on the WP at this time though
[21:06] <wxl> throttled jeez
 that includes for Profetik777 because in the future there may be a beatdown on the system and a migration
 ;)
[21:07] <wxl> sigh maybe just read the darn pastebin XD
 ;)
[21:07] <kc2bez> ok
 throttling is a pain ;)
[21:07]  * guiverc needs 3-5 mins
[21:07] <kc2bez> Thanks wxl !
[21:07] <kc2bez> anything else?
[21:07] <wxl> yep
[21:07] <kc2bez> ok
[21:07] <wxl> no just pointing out again we need help with merges
[21:09] <wxl> @leokolb you're up
 Tks wxl
[21:09] <wxl> np
 Testing as usual - Focal 20.04.2 & Hirsute dailies- no exciting news other than days getting longer ..
 done
[21:10] <wxl> thank you for that!
[21:10] <kc2bez> Thanks @leokolb
[21:10] <wxl> you'll notice my testing section is empty. that's thanks to your help!!!!
[21:10] <The_LoudSpeaker> o/
[21:10] <The_LoudSpeaker> Not fully awake but here.
[21:10] <wxl> ok well we've got a list still
[21:10] <wxl> KGIII: you ready?
 *gives coffee to The_LoudSpeaker*
[21:11] <KGIII> This week I have been able to continue daily live image testing. I also had time to do some support on AU. I've also been monitoring the bug triage process and have been reading the freedesktop specifications. They're very informative. I even made a task on phabricator, and saw the edits so that I'll be able to do better next time. With that, I'll say thanks everyone and I'm done.
[21:11] <wxl> great work KGIII !
 Thanks KGIII well done!
[21:11] <KGIII> No problem. I'm learning a ton and I love learning new stuff.
[21:12] <wxl> well there's always more where that came from XD
[21:12] <KGIII> Lemme catch up with my current homework. ;-)
[21:12] <wxl> @teward001 you got anything?
[21:12]  * guiverc here finally, sorry
 i do but give me 2 minutes
 someone else before me
[21:13] <wxl> ok @The_LoudSpeaker you ready yet?
[21:13] <guiverc> - some support as per usual, nothing on lxde.wiki (t180), usual close old bugs when I see them 
[21:13] <wxl> oh nevermind guiverc is going XD
[21:13] <guiverc> sorry for jumping gun..
[21:13] <guiverc> - fair amount of testing; focal.2 checklist was completed a few days ago (https://phab.lubuntu.me/w/release-team/testing-checklist/) with a huge chunk completed by @Leokolb so thanks Leó
[21:13] <wxl> more than fine!
[21:13] <guiverc> - some more testing on lp1864787 or (https://discourse.lubuntu.me/t/exploration-of-lp-1864787-sfdisk-force-append-dev-sda/2074/5) ; alas re-created issue (focal.2); but not worth developer time though as I've not experienced it with hirsute
[21:14]  * guiverc done
 now i'm ready
 tks Chris
[21:14] <wxl> guiverc: so are you with me on the idea of calling that bug invalid?
[21:15] <guiverc> not sure invalid applies, it occurs.. just don't think we can do anything about it
[21:15] <The_LoudSpeaker> wxl: i have only one thing to report. Will go after teward.
[21:15] <wxl> guiverc: well maybe incomplete since we've not figured out how to reproduce it exactly?
[21:15] <guiverc> incomplete at most maybe wxl..  (kept alive if it re-occurs)
[21:16] <guiverc> :)  yep you're ahead of me wxl
[21:16] <wxl> ok i'll do that
 *waits his turn*
[21:17] <wxl> thanks as always chris. you are awesome!
[21:17] <The_LoudSpeaker> +1
[21:17] <guiverc> sorry for jumping queue folks
[21:17] <The_LoudSpeaker> All of you are.
[21:17] <wxl> np!!!
 no worries guiverc
[21:17] <wxl> +1 The_LoudSpeaker 
[21:17] <wxl> off to you teward 
 well I'm not awesome i'm just insane
 OK so the easy stuff first - Infrastructure
[21:18] <wxl> awesomely insane
[21:18] <wxl> definitely not insanely awesomem XD
 * Discourse now fully migrated for static and user uploads to S3-style storage
 * CDNs set up via my LLC's existing StackPath subscription to service the static content as caching
 * Canonical IS handled the DNS for that, and everything is live and working
 * Ongoing image rendering issues due to CSP chaos, possibly Chrome related, possibly an overly strict policy, but Most Browsers work fine
 now for the less easy thing most of you are aware of...
 All Flavors - Kernel 5.8 Chaos
[21:19] <wxl> ^^^^^^ THIS
[21:19] <wxl> if you're doing support you NEED to know about this
 * Raised a can of worms to the TB this week RE: massive number of regressions caused by the HWE kernels being forced on all desktop users regardless of which image they installed with for 28.04
 20.04*
[21:20] <guiverc> TB?
 During the 20.04 cycle, they decided at the Ubuntu Desktop Team level to force all users to track the HWE stack
 Technical BOard
 Ubuntu Governance
[21:20] <guiverc> thanks
 Because of this, EVERYONE installing with any 20.04 ISO image is stuck to the HWE stacks as they release
 in the past 3-4 weeks, the 5.8 kernels rolled out on the HWE stacks
[21:20] <wxl> @teward001 about that i've seen reports that this only affects ubuntu desktop and not other flavors. is there truth to that?
[21:20] <guiverc> :)  @ raising hell... 5.8/focal been very active in support!
 and as such there were a TON of regressions - kernel and otherwise
[21:21] <guiverc> wxl that would fit with my experience 
 wxl: unconfirmed, but likely to default to Deskotp only
 BUT the kernel chaos is related
[21:21] <wxl> guiverc: yeah the only thing that confuses me is that someone came by irc support yesterday with the issue
 when the 5.8 kernel was rolled out MANY things did not go through proper autopkgtests and build tests
[21:21] <wxl> um
[21:21] <wxl> aren't they called AUTOpkgtests for a reason?
 so many of the DKMS-driven drivers (nVidia, Virtualbox, etc.) are all broken or in the process of getting fixed
[21:22] <The_LoudSpeaker> +1
 wxl: patience please.
[21:22]  * wxl shushes himself
[21:22] <guiverc> wxl, I've seen a couple (3-5% of 5.8 issues) with 5.8 questions - all have ubuntu-desktop installed
 After raising hell at the TB level, the Ubuntu Release Team is spearheading the notification to the Community At Large about this chaos
 and what went wrong, why it wasn't caught, how it's being fixed now, and how this'll be prevented in the future
[21:23] <guiverc> sorry @teward001  & thanks for raising hell !!!!!!!!!!!
 If anyone doing Lubuntu Support has issues with people using the 5.8 kernels currently, help them to get back to 5.4 or GRUB boot and select the 5.4 kernel to boot to until the issues are fully resolved
 (this is my current advice to ${ALL_USERS} having 5.8 kernel issues)
 </done>
 OH and wxl looped me on the lubuntu.me migration so i'm going to help coord with IS to se what they need to complete that migration.
[21:23] <kc2bez> tks @teward001
 NOW I"m done.
 *goes back to the shadows*
[21:23] <guiverc> Thanks @teward001 & again sorry
 no worries
 lots of stuff for me to loop in and summarize :P
[21:24] <wxl> thx @teward001
 wxl: and yes autopkgtests SHOULD be automatic
 but insight from Seth Arnold was "Ehhhh maybe they didn't get tested right"
 therefore, regressions out the [CENSORED]
[21:25] <kc2bez> lost power here sry brb
[21:25] <The_LoudSpeaker> My turn now?
[21:25] <kc2bez> go
[21:25] <The_LoudSpeaker> I have only one thing: fixed lxqt-build-tools merge. Working on the liblxqt one now. 
[21:25]  * The_LoudSpeaker is done
[21:25] <wxl> thanks for that The_LoudSpeaker 
[21:25] <wxl> that's where we need big help right now
[21:25] <guiverc> thanks The_LoudSpeaker 
[21:26] <wxl> to follow up on the 5.8 thing i just checked the focal manifest and we DO NOT have the hwe kernel
[21:26] <wxl> so this shouldn't affect our users by default but they can always switch to the hwe track manually
[21:26] <The_LoudSpeaker> Thanks to RikMills . TIL how to include original source during upload. 
[21:26] <wxl> in which case they're screwed XD
[21:27] <guiverc> thanks KGIII, wxl (belated thanks)
[21:27] <wxl> The_LoudSpeaker: if you figure out anything not properly documented in our docs, please fix it
[21:27] <KGIII> You're welcome.
[21:27] <KGIII> And same to all y'all, but I added that to my first post.
 thanks everyone!
[21:28] <wxl> maybe we should send out an announcement warning people about 5.8?
[21:28] <wxl> like a brief summary on social media/mailing lists with a longer discussion on discourse with updates
[21:28] <guiverc> I think it's a good idea... given support issues I've seen
[21:28] <The_LoudSpeaker> wxl: yup. I think the packaging tutorial needs some more info. Debuild -S which is written there doesn't include original source by default. That needs to be mentioned ig. Will do it next time I am near a keyboard.
[21:29] <The_LoudSpeaker> wxl: a mail to user mailing lists and blog posts / wiki posts should do it imo.
[21:29] <guiverc> I'd like to see it on our discourse too
[21:30]  * guiverc discourse could just be link to blog though
[21:30] <wxl> i'm thinking discourse would be the repository for the most up to date information and all the other social media/mailing lists would link to it
[21:31] <The_LoudSpeaker> LGTM 
[21:31] <wxl> kc2bez: is that something you can handle?
[21:31] <The_LoudSpeaker> Also, i gtg. Thanks for all the work everyone. 
[21:31] <wxl> also @teward001 if you're on hwe i assume switching to ga can be problematic???
[21:32] <wxl> thanks again raman take care
[21:33] <kc2bez> wxl, I have been trying to link things to discourse. Should we start doing release notes there?
 wxl: ehhhhh
 i've been able to kick people back down to 5.4
 but it involves complex editing of GRUB to default the 5.4 image as the boot-to-this kernel
[21:34] <wxl> kc2bez: maybe? but then that kind of makes me question having the blog altogether
 and that's.... nontrivial
[21:34] <wxl> and maybe that's not a problem
[21:34] <wxl> @teward001 so not track switching actually. ok
 wxl: I'm not sure there's a way TO switch the track without breaking other metapackages
 other than removing linux-generic-hwe-20.04 and deps and going with just linux-generic in a 20.04 environment
[21:36] <wxl> right, ok
 but I don't know if the 5.4 series still gets updates with this decision (I would assume it WOULD because Server installs are not bound to this desktop forced hwe stack issue)
[21:36] <wxl> right
[21:37] <wxl> that fact is atually rather curious, i think
[21:37] <guiverc> I would expect 5.4 to get updates (default for server)
[21:37] <wxl> (that server was inheriently exempt)
 well, welcome to the chaos
[21:38] <wxl> @teward001 so adapting this would be appropriate? https://askubuntu.com/a/216420/237241
 I asked TB to inquire why the decision was made to FORCE 20.04 users to go onto the HWE stack
 even for those installing without the .2 image
 no movement there
 wxl: I believe so, yes
 but untested because I apt-pinned to prohibit 5.8 on my laptop here for now
[21:39] <wxl> like i said last night, it's either a matter of not following process or not having an appropriate process in place
[21:39] <wxl> ahhhhh true
[21:40] <guiverc> fyi: yesterday's 20.04.2 still had 5.4 kernel
[21:40] <guiverc> daily ^
 guiver: that may be because you don't force HWE stack
 but if Ubuntu Desktop 20.04.2 has 5.8 they're going to be hardpressed to fix all the regressions before .2 comes out ;)
[21:41] <KGIII> I'm a bit confused. My stock Focal VM (fully updated) is still on 5.4.
[21:41] <wxl> KGIII: it seems that this was only enforced on ubuntu desktop
[21:41] <KGIII> Ah, okay. Thanks.
[21:42] <guiverc> yeah KGIII all my 20.04 installs used 5.4, but Ubuntu desktop installed has 5.8  (inc. if lubuntu-desktop is added later; where I see it on askubu/support)
[21:42] <wxl> KGIII: their manifests include the hwe kernel whereas ours includes the standard generic one
 wxl: there's also a tool called grub-customizer in the repos that might work to help set default
[21:42] <wxl> ok
[21:43] <KGIII> That makes sense. I'll expect to see the questions on AU for Ubuntu then.
[21:43] <wxl> note too that this will also affect anyone who explicitly installs the hwe kernel
 https://matterbridge.lubuntu.me/9da1078c/file_1736.jpg
 https://matterbridge.lubuntu.me/ddbcb4ad/file_1737.jpg
 one shows the config of the grub list, and one lets you choose a predefined
[21:43] <KGIII> Noted.
 at least that's on Ubuntu ;)
[21:43] <wxl> ew gtk
 but it shold show SIMILAR for Lubuntu
 *salts wxl*
 it's either this or explain to users how to manually edit grub list and potentally break their system hard
 :P
[21:44] <wxl> hehehe
[21:44] <KGIII> My only Ubuntu VM was upgraded to 20.10 the other day. I also replaced the kernel with the Liquorix kernel just to test it. So, I should probably build a stock 20.04 VM for testing.
[21:44] <wxl> i'll maybe start a wiki on discourse
[21:45] <guiverc> :)   I like the idea of wiki built on discourse
[21:45] <wxl> btw it should be clear that the 5.8 kernel itself is not bad. groovy's fine. it's that several packages built around 5.4 don't play nice with 5.8
[21:46] <guiverc> for sure. my system (hirsute) runs 5.8 without issues too
[21:46] <wxl> virtualbox is a notable example
[21:47] <wxl> but obviously there are nvidia, broadcom, realtek, etc. etc. drivers that are also problematic
 Me too (re @lubuntu_bot: (irc) <guiverc> for sure. my system (hirsute) runs 5.8 without issues too)
 Have to run ..tks all
[21:49] <wxl> thanks everyone
[21:50] <kc2bez> sry, I have a post but it is a bit tough on my phone. 
[21:50] <guiverc> thank you all
[21:50] <wxl> np. even something to make people aware but with little info is a good start
[21:51] <kc2bez> I have been working a touch on minimal install it is almost ready for some testing. 
[21:51] <wxl> cool
[21:52] <guiverc> :)  kc2bez 
[21:53] <kc2bez> I set up rHELLOWORLD too for new folks to learn git/arc
[21:53] <wxl> OHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH
[21:53] <kc2bez> I hope to follow with some docs
[21:53] <wxl> +11111111111111111111111111111111111111111
[21:53] <kc2bez> for new code/phab contributors
[21:54] <kc2bez> that is mostly it this week. 
[21:54] <wxl> good stuff thank you
[21:54] <kc2bez> too much real life happening. 
[21:55] <kc2bez> thanks wxl
 2020 is the dumpster fire that won't stop burning and is starting to burn 2021 xD
 *shot*
 and thus makes Real Life interfere with everyting
[21:55] <wxl> tru dat
 anyways
 Good news!!!!! (re @lubuntu_bot: (irc) <kc2bez> I set up rHELLOWORLD too for new folks to learn git/arc)
 Great work
[21:56] <kc2bez> tks
[21:59] <guiverc> :)  on learning git & arc, thanks kc2bez 
[22:01] <lynorian> good idea
[22:05] <KGIII> Sweet!
[22:33] <wxl> kc2bez: there's a start you can link to https://discourse.lubuntu.me/t/draft-focal-and-5-8-hwe-kernel-woes/2134
 there's a wrong in there wxl
 > The updated kernel was not supposed to be released until the second point release (which has yet to come at time of writing).
 during the TB meeting it was made known they USUALLY release the kernel ahead of the point release
 to get testing and such done to kick around the issues and regressions
[22:42] <guiverc> in my experience the new kernel comes days (max 7-9 days) before .2 ISO release date, not ...
 i revised it
 with the interp of what I had during the TB meeting
 (thank you sysop power xD)
[22:45] <guiverc> wxl, I've a suggestion too, here?  (wording change, minor)  /Up until Focal, the default on all releases installed with the initial ISO or a .1 ISO was to use the GA kernel/  on background intro .. not all use GA kernel
[22:46] <wxl> @teward001 sysop power hehehe it's w wiki silly
[22:47] <wxl> guiverc: ^ repeating what i said to @teward001 feel free to edit :)
[22:47] <guiverc> great job wxl 
 edit accordingly, i just wanted to clarify the point release isn't the only time when the kernels are available (there ARE people who want to upgrade their HWE before the point release, though that's the USUAL time people see the HWE stack)
[23:13] <wxl> @teward001 (or anyone else that has an ubuntu handy) is the hwe kernel indicated when using `uname`?
[23:15] <wxl> i don't think it does
[23:15] <wxl> s/doe/i/
[23:15] <guiverc> wxl, my experience is 5.4 is still default for focal/20.04 (checked last night, if not this morning during discussions)
[23:16] <wxl> i think that safely answers my question https://learnubuntumate.weebly.com/uploads/1/0/8/4/108446579/hwe-014_orig.jpg
[23:17]  * guiverc is booting 20.04.2 install...  so I can confirm shortly
[23:28] <guiverc> wxl `dpkg -l |grep hwe` finds no installs on the last install of 20.04.2 on d755-5  (xfs testing install)
[23:38] <wxl> guiverc: well, for lubuntu at least, right?
[23:38] <wxl> (i was asking about ubuntu)
[23:38] <guiverc> yep.. it was lubuntu 20.04.2, sorry I missed the ubuntu bit
[23:38] <wxl> np
 no it has no special uname (re @lubuntu_bot: (irc) <wxl> @teward001 (or anyone else that has an ubuntu handy) is the hwe kernel indicated when using `uname`?)
[23:41] <wxl> cool that's what i was thinking
 just a uname that reflects its version
 5.8.0-xyz-generic
 or similar
 (uname -r output)
 my system's locked to 5.4.x because i have a buttload of restricts with pinning
 let me see if i can find a 5.8.x example
[23:44] <wxl> it's cool you answered my question
 cool cool
[23:44] <kc2bez[m]> wxl Thanks for crafting that discourse post. I think it reads well, I like it.
[23:45] <wxl> kc2bez: np. if you could link it around everywhere that would cap it off
[23:46] <kc2bez[m]> Sure, I can send a tweet and Telegram announcement.
 i'm glad to see we've got the announcement too
 because it also preempts anyone having issues with the 5.8 kernel
 "We know it's broke, we're waiting for a hard resolution from the Kernel Team and such, here's how to work arounod this" master post
 Forwarded from unknown: The Lubuntu support team has noticed some issues with the HWE kernel on 20.04 and certain hardware.https://discourse.lubuntu.me/t/draft-focal-and-5-8-hwe-kernel-woes/2134t on our Discourse forum with information that we currently know. We will add more information as we continue to get it.