[00:00] <wonko> does it work on 5.10 liquorix?
[00:00] <OvenWerks> wonko: I used to do that but as I am testing and developing audio setup sw I need to have as many different kinds of audio devices as I can
[00:00] <OvenWerks> I need to reboot to find out
[00:02] <wonko> Every time I look at any sort of performance related results for liquorix vs lowlatency I'm not overly impressed. :)
[00:05] <OvenWerks> well it could just as easy be 5.8 vs 5.10
[00:07] <OvenWerks> [    7.622398] snd_fireworks fw1.0: EFW transaction timed out
[00:07] <OvenWerks> [    7.622409] snd_fireworks fw1.0: Sound card registration failed: -5
[00:08] <wonko> that's in liquorix?
[00:08] <OvenWerks> yup
[00:08] <wonko> boo
[00:08] <wonko> how about vanilla 5.10 lowlatency/generic?
[00:08] <OvenWerks> also 5.10
[00:08] <wonko> damn
[00:08] <OvenWerks> I don't have 5.10 generic
[00:08] <wonko> I don't think it matters
[00:09] <wonko> the bits lowlatency tweaks shouldn't matter
[00:09] <OvenWerks> I think it is an alsa module problem
[00:09] <wonko> oh, ALSA? What about FFADO?
[00:09] <OvenWerks> ffado works
[00:09] <wonko> ok, that's fine then
[00:12] <OvenWerks> I think it shows most (if not all) people runnning FW audio are not using the alsa fw stack.
[00:13] <wonko> I literally can't get it to work for me at all
[00:13] <OvenWerks> what about with linux 5.4
[00:13] <wonko> nope
[00:18] <wonko> Installing 5.10 now
[00:18] <wonko> although I need to avoid rebooting for as long as possible due to work crap
[00:18] <wonko> Oh, I should run this docker container on my NUC
[00:18] <wonko> then it doesn't matter
[00:21] <OvenWerks> With the broken fireworks module, I don't have to reboot to switch to ffado drivers
[00:25] <wonko> Interesting. :)
[16:39] <OvenWerks> wonko: I am dl the 21.04 iso to see if the snd-fireworks module works with that. I do not know if the ALSA modules are tied to the kernel version or not and the ALSA version from 20.04 to 20.10 to 21.04 are all different.
[16:45] <OvenWerks> If I can, I will also try usng that as a testbed for pipewire. We know Pipewire is not ready for use but it would be good to be able to tell the dev where it does not meat expectations
[16:57] <wonko> My experiences so far make me not really care about FireWire and alsa. FFADO for life. :)
[16:58] <wonko> But I am curious to see how 21.04 does overall.
[16:59] <OvenWerks> wonko: Yeah that it true. Right now PW can use the FW backend.. So I want to find out how well workarounds can deal with that.
[17:00] <OvenWerks> The thing is, it will not be long before PW replaces pulse.
[17:01] <OvenWerks> I do not know how well PW will bridge to jack is jack is run outside of pw. 
[17:03] <OvenWerks> s/is/if/
[17:14] <wonko> wouldn't you just want to control PW directly and let it handle jack?
[17:15] <OvenWerks> yes... but, we are already having trouble with FW devices in alsa which is the only way PW can see them
[17:15] <Eickmeyer> OvenWerks: Not 100% sure the version of Pipewire in our archive will be the same as in the Fedora archive (which is ready).
[17:16] <OvenWerks> Eickmeyer: I may build to keep up and beyond any release.
[17:16] <Eickmeyer> OvenWerks: Fair.
[17:17] <OvenWerks> Eickmeyer: I do not have the time to learn the fedora system 
[17:17] <OvenWerks> It is enough to keep up with what ubuntu/debian is doing
[17:17] <Eickmeyer> OvenWerks: Yeah, neither do I anymore. I'm trying to figure out a way to hand-off Jam. :(
[17:18] <wonko> OvenWerks: that's going to be a problem then for FFADO users. Ugh, what a mess that will be made by a tool to make things "simpler". :-D
[17:19] <OvenWerks> wonko: The dev is not against supporting ffado, it has been a blind spot for him. He just assumed alsa covered that now.
[17:19]  * OvenWerks made that assumption too untill a week ago.
[17:19] <wonko> ok, so maybe we can contriute to that because I think that would be helpful for us as well
[17:20] <OvenWerks> even we ran jack just to talk to the device and used PW as the main graph for applications run in
[17:20] <wonko> Hmm, maybe I'll PCI Passthrough the FW card to a VM so I can mess around with it and not disturb my desktop where I'm trying to get work done.
[17:21] <wonko> Although I have a new FW cable showing up today. I'm going to try that before I do anything else to see if it helps.
[17:23] <wonko> but with passthrough I'll at least be able to do dev work if need be
[18:27] <RikMills> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=99RPMVzipls
[18:27] <RikMills> Not usre if thaat is useful for your default panel?
[18:27] <RikMills> *sure
[18:35] <Eickmeyer> RikMills: Looks like an interesting concept. Not 100% sure if it's useful for us, but it's nice to have an alternate separator for sure.
[19:27] <wonko> OvenWerks: Ok, installed 21.04 and it looks like it has 5.8 with no other options? The page for it claims 5.11 though?
[19:27] <wonko> oh, that's omgubuntu
[19:27] <wonko> so maybe not acurate. :)
[19:28] <OvenWerks> wonko: I have not got that far :)  but I am more interested in the fact that the version of alsa (libalsa, libasound, etc) seems to be different.
[19:29] <wonko> when is freeze? feb 25th, right?
[19:29] <OvenWerks> alsa and modules != kernel version
[19:30] <wonko> hmmm, FFADO 2.5.2
[19:30] <wonko> 2.4.2
[19:33] <Eickmeyer> 2.4.4 is latest version.
[19:33] <wonko> yeah, and it doesn't change much, but it does get rid of that popup window for data collection that is no longer used
[19:33] <wonko> so it would be nice to see it in
[19:34] <Eickmeyer> I can probably do that. Saw it was released in August, but nobody in Debian has touched it.
[19:35] <OvenWerks> I am more worried about ALSA as it is the alsa fireworks module that is broken in 20.10
[19:36] <wonko> I'm working on pci passthrough so I can test that sort of thing (not that I have the best set of hardware to use because ALSA never worked for me) :-D
[19:37] <wonko> but, this PCI slot is shit and there is a ton of stuff in this iommu group. :(
[19:37] <Eickmeyer> Can't do anything about 20.10.  ALSA is in main so I couldn't do anything about that anyhow.
[19:37] <wonko> I miss my xeon motherboard at times.
[19:37] <OvenWerks> Eickmeyer: yes I know. that is why I want to look at H
[19:37] <wonko> way better IOMMU layout than your average desktop
[19:37] <Eickmeyer> OvenWerks: ok. :)
[19:38] <OvenWerks> Eickmeyer: to be honest, alsa FW is so bad that ffado is the way to go.
[19:38] <Eickmeyer> Ok, working on it now whilst I wait for my son to finish his schoolwork.
[19:38] <OvenWerks> it is just another reminder of how bad Computer Audio has fallen
[19:39] <OvenWerks> oh Eickmeyer just a heads up controls 2.1.2 is about to get tagged
[19:39] <Eickmeyer> I think the biggest problem is there's hardly any incentive for FW devices because ERR:NoNewHardware
[19:39] <Eickmeyer> OvenWerks: Thanks for the heads up.
[19:39] <Eickmeyer> I'll get an auto email when the deed is done. :)
[19:40] <wonko> It's a real shame that there is this push for USB audio because honestly USB is terrible for audio. I don't get it.
[19:41] <Eickmeyer> OvenWerks: That was quick. HAHA
[19:41] <Eickmeyer> wonko: It's getting better with thunderbolt and USB 3.1+.
[19:42] <Eickmeyer> wonko: FW is also problematic because Apple, who created it, has abandoned it.
[19:43] <OvenWerks> Eickmeyer: does it deal any better with low latency? Is it better than 1ms?
[19:44] <Eickmeyer> OvenWerks: I honestly don't know, because my device is USB 2.0. Audio manufacturers are being glacier slow in updating hardware to USB 3.1.
[19:44] <OvenWerks> (1 ms for the usb protocol, audio has to be at least double, probably tripple)
[19:44] <OvenWerks> I think the internal audio protocol is still the same.
[19:45] <OvenWerks> I have not heard of an audio protocol that is USB3* specific
[19:51] <Eickmeyer> I mean, to be fair, 1ms isn't even intelligible to the human ear.
[19:52] <OvenWerks> no but it does determin the edge of stability
[19:54] <OvenWerks> also say, .5ms (more in any I have seen) just from analog to digital, 3ms from USB to jack (or whatever), 3ms back to USB and the another .5ms back to analog
[19:55] <OvenWerks> If the effects in between introduce any extra at all that gets reall close to 10ms where things start to matter.
[19:58] <OvenWerks> I think those involved with networked audio (aes67, AVB, dante) all work for sub 1ms conversions for a reason. It is the same as not needing 24 bits but being able record 20db down make it worth while
[20:02] <wonko> well, so much for pci passthrough
[20:02] <wonko> stupid consumer grade shit
[21:30] <OvenWerks> wonko: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/linux/+bug/1913812
[21:31] <OvenWerks> wonko: plese click on the "This bug affaects you" link in green neer the top
[21:31] <OvenWerks> wonko: you probably need to be logged in.
[21:32] <OvenWerks> wonko also maybe leave a note that says you have an audiofire 4 (I think)
[21:32] <wonko> Added
[21:33] <OvenWerks> Thank you
[21:33] <OvenWerks> Perhaps this will be fixed by 22.04 :P
[21:35] <wonko> when even fewer people will care about ALSA based FW. :-D
[21:36] <OvenWerks> Both of us show a growing trend of people looking for old gear because the new gear is crumby
[21:39] <wonko> true
[21:39] <wonko> ugh, new FW cable
[21:39] <wonko> thought I'd see what happens with 32/2
[21:39] <wonko> first start of jack the usual nonsense
[21:39] <wonko> second start of jack libffado segfaults. :(
[21:43] <OvenWerks> Eickmeyer: when the audio devices change for pulse (I guess the default output device) it normally puts a indictor window in the middle of the page with either a big speaker icon or an icone with a crossed out speaker. in H I get a smaller box, text only. Maybe missing an icon? F was fine
[21:43] <wonko> Ok, running 64/2, let's see what happens.
[21:44] <Eickmeyer> OvenWerks: I can look and see what's going on this weekend. There was an update to materia-kde that just landed, so that might fix it.
[21:44] <OvenWerks> Eickmeyer: I guess I meant G was fine (20.10) ... F was fine too but I have studio on to of K so not a good case to point to
[21:46] <Eickmeyer> OvenWerks: Yeah, there have been a couple of updates to materia-kde this month, so I think the ubuntustudio-look package might need some TLC for missing icon links. I think I can get to it this weekend.
[21:46] <OvenWerks> Eickmeyer: funny thing is that when I first used studio-controls in G they worked, but after system upgrade did not. 2.1.2 will fix though.
[21:46] <wonko> Another oddity is with Carla and the Rack view. I need to resize the window to get the racks to not go past the right side of the view (Carla gets started maxed)
[21:46]  * OvenWerks really doesn't mind the smaller box :)
[21:47] <Eickmeyer> wonko: Yeah, that's beyond my purview. Anything app specific like that is with the app. Definitely falktx's domain on that one.
[21:47] <OvenWerks> wonko: I do not have that problem. Carla does not (has never for me) start up full screen.
[21:48] <wonko> Do you start it from withing RaySession?
[21:48] <wonko> I wonder if that's doing something weird to it
[21:48] <Eickmeyer> It might be. Agordejo is the way to go now.
[21:48] <OvenWerks> wonko: my screen size is 1600x900 so not big.
[21:49] <wonko> I've got 1440p
[21:49] <OvenWerks> I have not used raysession
[21:49] <wonko> it probably doesn't need to be that big but it sits off on its own virtual desktop so whatever. :-D
[21:49] <wonko> Eickmeyer: I'll give it a look
[21:49] <Eickmeyer> It's in the backports repo, latest version.
[21:49] <Eickmeyer> Uses new-sm as a dependency.
[21:50] <OvenWerks> Eickmeyer: there is no backport directory for 21.04 either (even empty) I don't know when you add those though
[21:51] <Eickmeyer> OvenWerks: I add those after FeatureFreeze when packages get updated after FF.
[21:51] <Eickmeyer> Really, when packages with new features get updated.
[21:51] <Eickmeyer> Until then, Universe is fair game.
[21:51] <OvenWerks> makes sense. I am just pointing out errors when I see them
[21:51] <wonko> OvenWerks: the Start Agordejo button stays stuck grey saying please install. Is there a way to reset that other than restarting controls?
[21:52] <Eickmeyer> wonko: You'd have to restart controls. Doesn't affect anything, it doesn't even have to be running for Jack to run.
[21:52] <OvenWerks> wonko: I don't think so
[21:52] <Eickmeyer> Unlike qjackctl.
[21:53] <OvenWerks> My first thought was "I'll add it to my list" but I am not sure how
[21:53] <OvenWerks> qjackctl has a setting that allows that too.
[21:53] <Eickmeyer> I wouldn't, OvenWerks. You designed studio-controls to be a set and leave application, not something that needs to run constantly.
[21:53] <wonko> Eickmeyer: I know, just bugging Oven over UI nonsense. :)
[21:53] <Eickmeyer> That's true, but not by default RE: QjackCtl.
[21:53] <wonko> OvenWerks: Can you make it so you can click it again after the please message and it resets?
[21:54] <OvenWerks> wonko: it would have to not be grayed out
[21:54] <wonko> Oh. :(
[21:55] <OvenWerks> to me grayed out is a good indicator that it doesn't work ;)
[21:56] <wonko> Yeah, it just seems like "ok, i instaled it no go do the needful" would be a reasonable way to act, but if it's not possible not a huge deal.
[21:56] <wonko> Now, how the hell does agordejo work? :-D
[21:56] <OvenWerks> Eickmeyer:  we have too many applications in Audio Production again, time for another sub menu maybe.
[21:57] <Eickmeyer> OvenWerks: Yeah, or move some stuff to existing submenus.
[21:57] <OvenWerks> right
[21:58] <OvenWerks> zyn could go to synths
[21:58] <OvenWerks> meters to utilities
[21:59] <Eickmeyer> If you want to take that on, go right ahead. :) Git repo is up-to-date.
[21:59] <OvenWerks> mcpdisp-ext should be in midi utilities
[21:59] <OvenWerks> Eickmeyer: if I get time. I will
[21:59] <Eickmeyer> Ok. :)
[22:01] <OvenWerks> There is a bug I need to take care of in our grub file and I am part way through studio-controls next and some ardour stuff...
[22:04] <wonko> Ok, Travis-CI queue times are out of control. Time to switch to something else. ;(
[22:06] <OvenWerks> Eickmeyer: FYI H has pipewire installed on the iso
[22:06] <Eickmeyer> Oh?
[22:07] <Eickmeyer> I didn't authorize that.
[22:07] <Eickmeyer> >_>
[22:07] <OvenWerks> I went to muon to install it and much is already installed
[22:09] <OvenWerks> but ffado tools _is_ installed so good. Oh when you build controls if you can add ffado-tool as a dep please
[22:09] <OvenWerks> Eickmeyer: ^^^
[22:09] <Eickmeyer> OvenWerks: Ok, can do.
[22:15] <OvenWerks> interesting, both pulse and pipewire are running
[22:51] <OvenWerks> the pipewire in ubuntu does not have pipewire-jack