[01:47] <jphilips> bluesabre: Ctrl+Escape doesn't work to open the whisker menu, though set https://github.com/Xubuntu/xubuntu-default-settings/blob/master/etc/xdg/xdg-xubuntu/xfce4/xfconf/xfce-perchannel-xml/xfce4-keyboard-shortcuts.xml#L12
[01:48] <bluesabre> Seems to work here?
[01:53] <jphilips> works fine for me in 20.04 and 21.04, but in an installed 21.04, it shows up as xfdesktop --menu
[01:54] <jphilips> i guess this must be a symptom of nothing retaining what it should after installation
[01:55] <jphilips> and 21.04 live cd*
[01:55] <jphilips> just like this https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/xubuntu-default-settings/+bug/1910872
[01:55] <ubot3> Launchpad bug 1910872 in xubuntu-default-settings (Ubuntu) "desktop icon tooltips set to 128" [Undecided, New]
[01:56] <jphilips> and the recent changes you did of the thunar toolbar and the desktop settings are also not found after installation
[01:58] <jphilips> when you get a chance, i have three pull requests https://github.com/Xubuntu/xubuntu-default-settings/pulls
[02:46] <jphilips> bluesabre: did you make any decision of whether we'd include the qt5 libraries by default
[03:51] <JackFrost> We really shouldn't be shipping any Qt...
[05:15] <jphilips> what is the reasoning behind that, as users will install qt apps. i have qbittorent, telegram, and zoom to name a few qt apps installed. ubuntu ships qt libs
[05:21] <JackFrost> 1. https://docs.xubuntu.org/contributors/xsd.html#xsd-seeds-composition  2. It's a bit pointless to pull in Qt libraries when no Qt applications are seeded.  3. Users *may* install Qt applications, not *will* so that's worded improperly.  4. qt5-gtk2-platformtheme itself is rather unmaintained, a git snapshot from early 2017 and not a single commit since.  It works for now, but given it uses GTK2 
[05:21] <JackFrost> to work and that's seen its last release...Yeah.
[05:21] <JackFrost> jphilips: Remember: What you do on your desktop will differ from what others do, it's really not the end of the world to have to install a few packages here and there.
[05:23] <jphilips> guess i should have given more context, i had suggested that we do includes some qt apps by default and also suggested that we improve the out of the box experience/theming of qt apps as well
[05:24] <JackFrost> Again, having to install applications isn't the end of the world...  Can you give a specific reason why it must be shipped?
[05:28] <jphilips> nothing must be installed, which xubuntu core clearly shows, but we pre-install things to improve the out of box user experience for users, similar to how we tweak settings
[05:30] <JackFrost> That seems very subjective, and doesn't seem to answer "Why Qt?"
[05:38] <jphilips> as there aren't any gtk versions of the apps that i was recommending and users have to jump through hoops to theme qt apps
[05:39] <JackFrost> 'apt install' doesn't exactly seem like 'jumping through hoops', but I guess we differ on that.
[05:40] <jphilips> for apps maybe not but for theming very much so
[05:41] <JackFrost> Like I said, for theming it's just to install that one compatibility package, so yes there too.  The best option would be to find a Qt theme that matches, or supports both GTK and Qt, though not sure where one would find that.
[05:43] <jphilips> bluesabre mentioned qt5-style-plugins as the package we needed to use and also some configs would need to be set to make it work
[05:44] <jphilips> the qt apps i recommended we have were keepassxc as a password manager and telegram as a chat client to replace pidgin
[05:45] <jphilips> everything is listed here https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/145vm29WnxgYm4Y_8guaGDAblZT5sRjZ3jhKRktgX1No/edit#gid=0
[05:45] <JackFrost> https://github.com/Xubuntu/xubuntu-default-settings/blob/master/etc/X11/Xsession.d/56xubuntu-session#L5
[09:24] -SwissBot:#xubuntu-devel- ::xfce4-announce:: ANNOUNCE: xfce4-taskmanager 1.4.1 released @ http://xfce.10915.n7.nabble.com/ANNOUNCE-xfce4-taskmanager-1-4-1-released-tp59860.html (by Simon Steinbeiss)
[12:10] <bluesabre> jphilips: Since we ship apturl, I think I'd be more interested in having a wiki page or a welcome app to make it easy for users to install those additional apps and libraries. We've always been conservative about the number of apps we include, expanding the list only when there is a significant need identified.
[12:10] <bluesabre> The two points from the strategy document are pretty clear: 1. The package should use the GTK toolkit. 2. The package should not pull in heavy libraries, especially if they will run and/or start frequently.
[12:12] <bluesabre> The main communication method for Xubuntu is IRC. I do think pidgin is less useful today, so I'd be in favor of a proposal to replace pidgin with hexchat, especially if we could preconfigure it with the #xubuntu channel.
[12:13] <jphilips> i did propose adding hexchat and yes it is possible to configure it to work with #xubuntu. mint does that.
[12:13] <bluesabre> Right
[12:14] <jphilips> though IRC is the main communication removing pidgin for hexchat is a downgrade in usability and functionality
[12:17] <jphilips> I start the welcome app on github, so how to move it under the xubuntu account/team/etc.
[12:19] <jphilips> what about the issue of qt app theming being preconfigured, which does pull in the qt libs
[12:22] <bluesabre> That's the problem, it pulls in qt libraries.
[12:22] <bluesabre> We chose not to include it in the past for that very reason.
[12:23] <jphilips> heavy meaning memory or disk space
[12:24] <jphilips> with the qt5 theming, the libraries would only be utilized once a user installs a qt app, or am i mistaken
[12:29] <bluesabre> Heavy meaning disk space. Their inclusion uses disk space with no benefit to users not utilizing QT apps. But I think it's more that first point that is disqualifying. We only want apps (and libraries) using the GTK toolkit because anything else eats up space unnecessarily.
[12:31] <bluesabre> GTK is a part of the Xubuntu strategy doc. We've done well sticking to it since we started, we should continue to do so while we have a good package selection and there is a good selection of GTK apps that could still fill any gaps.
[12:32] <jphilips> okey dokey
[12:32] <jphilips> any recommendations for a good gtk password manager and communication app
[12:33] <jphilips> and how to make the qt app theming easy for users to do
[12:33] <bluesabre> apturl:qt5-styles-plugin link in the wiki or website
[12:33] <bluesabre> communication app: hexchat
[12:34] <bluesabre> password manager: seahorse, maybe https://www.omgubuntu.co.uk/2018/08/password-safe-keepass-linux-manager
[12:34] <bluesabre> or the built in option Firefox includes, or one of the many online options
[12:34] <bluesabre> I use 1password :)
[12:36] <bluesabre> btw, I pushed xubuntu-hello up to the xubuntu github for folks to hack on, https://github.com/Xubuntu/xubuntu-hello
[12:36] <jphilips> proposed seahorse be pre-installed, but its for PGP and SSH keys
[12:37] <jphilips> best to have an offline password manager, as browser and online ones are not as secure, and online ones don't work without internet
[12:37] <bluesabre> It does passwords too, click the back arrow to see https://imgur.com/7ZhLqC0.png
[12:39] <bluesabre> If I don't have internet, I lose 99% of the things I enter passwords for
[12:39] <jphilips> this is what mine looks like, don't see any down arrow - https://imgur.com/N62USom.png
[12:40] <bluesabre> From that screen, you can add passwords
[12:40] <bluesabre> It doesn't do generation, so there's that
[12:40] <jphilips> do you mean this https://imgur.com/6ZMV81Z.png
[12:41] <bluesabre> Yes
[12:42] <jphilips> not a good UX to not have a username field and doubt it easy to move the passwords around once stored
[12:43] <bluesabre> https://flathub.org/apps/details/org.gnome.PasswordSafe actually looks pretty nice
[12:44] <jphilips> definitely is, it has a username field :D
[12:45] <jphilips> isn't in the repo
[12:46] <bluesabre> Yup, but it does seem like there's at least one good gtk version out there, so if we need to fill that gap, we can.
[12:50] <jphilips> does flatpaks, like snaps, pull in a huge amount of library files
[13:01] <bluesabre> Yes. Snaps and flatpaks both require common runtime libraries. So if you have a flatpak that requires the Gtk 3.22 toolkit, you have a Gtk 3.22 common flatpak that also gets installed.
[13:01] <bluesabre> It's not as messy as it was at the beginning, but adding a single flatpak to a system can require a bit of space.
[13:55] <krytarik> Commenting while I'm still going through the backlog,.. while it's true that on HexChat one can specify a default channel through patching, the latter is also the reason why there can only be one per distro, similar to other IRC clients in the archive, and I believe in Ubuntu it's still set to #ubuntu..
[14:11] <jphilips> installed hexchat on 21.04 and this is how it looks https://imgur.com/WwiCK2q.png
[14:12] <jphilips> it doesn't have any autojoin channels set
[14:14] <krytarik> It's more like a first start thing though, not sure if it also gets set as an autojoin channel and on what network.
[14:14] <jphilips> we would only need to bundle our own ~/.config/hexchat/servlist.conf file
[14:16] <jphilips> and add #xubuntu to the J line https://imgur.com/7OWWM2B.png
[14:34] <jphilips> created an issue for it https://github.com/Xubuntu/xubuntu-default-settings/issues/12
[14:34] <ubot3> Issue 12 in Xubuntu/xubuntu-default-settings "Bundle Hexchat" [Open]
[15:16] <brainwash> wouldn't a simple URL link do the job?
[15:16] <brainwash> link to the web irc page
[15:20] <jphilips> the xubuntu documentation has a link like that but native apps would be the preference over web browser
[15:46] <brainwash> why though?
[15:47] <brainwash> the web browser is the main application
[18:12] <jphilips> less resources, better UX, works even when the browser is closed