[03:48] <Kraus> Here's what I've got so far after playing around with the layout. Something is preventing me from shrinking it even more horizontally. Must be something on one of the other tabs. https://imgur.com/a/B0JLWaA .. https://imgur.com/a/YY48scd
[03:50] <Kraus> On the Pulse Bridging tab... I noticed a new third-layer embedded notebook widget. Sub-sub-tabs? Are y'all sure you need that? I can easily make it more readable without the extra embedded notebook.
[03:51] <Kraus> Also, ignore the missing label on the JACK Master Settings tab. Glade has this weird bug where if you Ctrl-Z at the wrong time it starts misplacing labels.
[18:50] <Kraus> Anyone here this morning? :)
 ask an actual question?
 also patience.
 also if it's bugs you should file bugs :P
[20:15] <Kraus> I asked last night.
[20:15] <Kraus> On the Pulse Bridging tab... I noticed a new third-layer embedded notebook widget. Sub-sub-tabs? Are y'all sure you need that? I can easily make it more readable without the extra embedded notebook.
[20:21] <Kraus> Any thoughts on the screenshots I shared last night?
[21:12] <Kraus> Alright! Well, I'll dare to continue on with the new design. I'll just save a snapshot of where I'm at currently, and that way if I need to revert back I can do so easily.
[22:02] <OvenWerk1> Kraus: Just tried to look at your screen shots, not sure if they are expired or what but they are not there.
[22:02] <Kraus> One sec, I'll relink them
[22:03] <Kraus> https://imgur.com/a/YY48scd https://imgur.com/a/B0JLWaA
[22:03] <OvenWerk1> Kraus: Please make sure the whole app fits on even a tiny laptop screen.
[22:03] <Kraus> That's my goal, but my progress hinges on finding out more information about the changes under development
[22:07] <Kraus> Are those links not working?
[22:09] <OvenWerk1> use old design works
[22:09] <Kraus> Hmm?
[22:10] <OvenWerk1> Then it shows me at 300% :P ok down to 110% so viewable
[22:11] <Kraus> I'm sorry, I'm not able to understand you.
[22:11]  * OvenWerk1 is complaining about imgur
[22:11] <Kraus> Ahhh.
[22:12] <Kraus> Is there another site I can use? Or do you have a discord account where I can just show you?
[22:14] <Eickmeyer[m]> Kraus: You could use Matrix if you want, it has a built-in image hosting capability.
[22:14] <Eickmeyer[m]> And it bridges here.
[22:14] <OvenWerk1> So you have basically started all over
[22:15] <Kraus> Eickmeyer[m]: Sure, what's the address?
[22:15] <OvenWerk1> Kraus:  I am not in favour of not showing devices by name
[22:16] <Kraus> OvenWerk1: I just took the fields that are already present on the github clone.
[22:16] <Eickmeyer[m]> Kraus: https://matrix.to/#/!xmgKQfBvHjTMsDGIBb:matrix.org?via=matrix.org should do the trick. Once there, ping me, and I can invite you to this room.
[22:17] <OvenWerk1> Kraus: yes but the JACK Master Device only shows  a down arrow not the device name
[22:17] <Kraus> OvenWerk1: It's only a preview is why. It's not actually working. It's a Glade preview
[22:17] <OvenWerk1> Same with USB device.
[22:17] <OvenWerk1> Ah
[22:20] <OvenWerk1> , WHy all in a line from top to bottom? Add ing two more lines will get us complainst about the whole app being too tall
[22:20]  * OvenWerk1 notes that there are two more lines to be added
[22:20] <Kraus> I reduced it by two vertical areas actually.
[22:20] <Eickmeyer[m]> Rule of thumb (because we've had it before): the app should fit in a 1200x800 window.
[22:21] <Kraus> Before, those buttons were in a notebook page, but by putting them on the left side, it shrunk the vertical window size down.
[22:21] <Eickmeyer[m]> We've had bug reports and complaints.
[22:21] <OvenWerk1> Kraus: I do agree with moving start stop etc to the side
[22:22] <OvenWerk1>  But not with everything in a line... unless we want to add more sub tabs to make up for it ...
[22:22] <Kraus> The width of the window will be greatly reduced once I fix up the new pages. I haven't worked on all of them yet. I cannot yet because I needed more information about the new third-layer tabs under development. I believe they are unnecessary.
[22:23] <OvenWerk1> Kraus: if everything is only one verticle line we will need more subtabs not less
[22:23] <Kraus> Not sure what you mean.
[22:23] <Kraus> Eickmeyer[m]: How do I ping/dm you on Matrix?
[22:23] <Eickmeyer[m]> Kraus: You can tab-complete, just like IRC.
[22:24] <Eickmeyer[m]> Kraus: So, if you're in the Ubuntu Studio Support room, you can ping me that way.
[22:24] <Kraus> Ahh, I see two of you.. one through kde and one through matrix
[22:25] <Kraus> I DMed the matrix version.. hopefully that's the right one!
[22:25] <Eickmeyer[m]> You didn't need to DM... >.<
[22:25] <Kraus> Sorry, you said to ping you?
[22:26] <Eickmeyer[m]> There you go. You'll notice you can attach files here.
[22:26] <kraus[m]> Hello!
[22:26] <Eickmeyer[m]> OvenWerk1 is here too.
[22:27] <Eickmeyer[m]> (since it's bridged)
[22:27] <OvenWerk1> you have removed one line that will need to go back in. then counting lines from the top. You have 13 compared to the old one which is 14. However yours would need one line aded back in so still 14 and then two more lines for jack extra latency in and out so two more lines tall.
[22:27] <kraus[m]> Okay so, to backtrack, basically, what I did was modify the placement of items on the github repository for `studio-controls`. Ovenworks was saying more work had been done to things since then, but I figured I might as well play around with it since I'd never used Glade before. I'd be happy to go back and make changes. Ovenworks is saying a few things I'm not sure what he's referencing about single vertical
[22:27] <kraus[m]> lines, etc, but I'm not sure what he's referring to? Here are the copies of those screenshots I gave on Imgur:
[22:27]  * kraus[m] uploaded an image: (104KiB) < https://matrix.org/_matrix/media/r0/download/matrix.org/UoIGNFFzTTXuDmSgXnBNDXbX/image.png >
[22:28] <kraus[m]> I intend on it being way skinnier than this, but something on the other tabs is preventing me. I won't find out what it is until I mess with them.
[22:28] <OvenWerk1> Kraus: everything in Jack Master Setting in in one line from top to bottom.
[22:28] <OvenWerk1> so it is becoming too tall
[22:29] <kraus[m]> Yes, that's how it already is, here, watch:
[22:29]  * kraus[m] uploaded an image: (63KiB) < https://matrix.org/_matrix/media/r0/download/matrix.org/wWNwzvdWQdEKWBNmZbYZvzxx/image.png >
[22:30] <kraus[m]> I'm not done messing around with it yet. I could feasibly place some of them side by side to save on room just fine.
[22:30] <OvenWerk1> That should not be how it is in git
[22:30] <kraus[m]> The one thing that would prevent me from doing that is, depending on how long the device names are, it might cause the window to variably be too wide.
[22:31] <kraus[m]> <OvenWerk1 "That should not be how it is in "> ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
[22:31] <kraus[m]> That's what was there! :)
[22:31] <OvenWerk1> https://i.imgur.com/J3py1fI.png
[22:31] <kraus[m]> I grabbed it from here: https://github.com/ovenwerks/studio-controls
[22:32] <OvenWerk1> that looks pre 2.1
[22:32] <Eickmeyer[m]> kraus: That's definitely not the master branch.
[22:32] <kraus[m]> Oh, you mean my working copy!
[22:32] <kraus[m]> That's Ubuntu Studio 20.10
[22:32] <kraus[m]> Freshly installed.
[22:33] <Eickmeyer[m]> kraus: It's still outdated. Add the backports repo using Ubuntu Studio Installer and you'll have the latest version.
[22:33] <kraus[m]> K, one sec.
[22:33]  * Eickmeyer[m] uploaded an image: (78KiB) < https://matrix.org/_matrix/media/r0/download/matrix.org/gMloMbJObsxdETbjvXrwgqTO/image.png >
[22:33] <Eickmeyer[m]> Should look like this (I'm on Kubuntu 20.04 ATM): 
[22:33] <kraus[m]> Yeah, major spacing issues I see going on.
[22:34] <kraus[m]> Alright, I'll just make an extra grid column. :)
[22:34] <Eickmeyer[m]> That's the Breeze theme, so it might not be Adwaita-compliant.
[22:34] <OvenWerk1> There are some spacing issues
[22:34]  * kraus[m] uploaded an image: (23KiB) < https://matrix.org/_matrix/media/r0/download/matrix.org/rgJoFRMUTZTQbJpVUMzVrABw/image.png >
[22:34] <kraus[m]> Wow...
[22:35] <Eickmeyer[m]> That's tk/tcl for you.
[22:35] <kraus[m]> Hmm?
[22:35] <Eickmeyer[m]> We've been looking for someone that can convert it to python3/gtk for years, but nobody has.
[22:35] <Eickmeyer[m]> tk/tcl is the GUI toolkit it's using.
[22:35] <OvenWerk1> this is whats coming: https://i.imgur.com/LB6xFV8.png
[22:36] <kraus[m]> Okay, Clicked Enable Backports PPA, put my password in, clicked Exit, and it reverted back to not having backports.
[22:36] <Eickmeyer[m]> You didn't let it update then. >.<
[22:36] <kraus[m]> It wasn't doing anything? Here, one sec.
[22:36] <Eickmeyer[m]> Open a terminal: sudo apt update, sudo apt upgrade.
[22:37] <kraus[m]> See, I'm dumb, so you can test dummy usability on me. :)
[22:40] <kraus[m]> So, while this is upgrading.. question.. what exactly are dummy channels?
[22:41] <OvenWerk1> So aside from added latency for jack and extra devices, extra device will also allow setting bridge names
[22:41] <OvenWerk1> Kraus: if you don't already know you don't need it ;)
[22:41] <Eickmeyer[m]> You can set Jack to not use any backend so you can simulate an audio device. Lets you pre-set before hooking-up to actual equipment. At least that's what I use it for.
[22:41] <OvenWerk1> seriously, the dummy back end allows setting the number of i/o ports
[22:42] <kraus[m]> Okay. So how can we get autojack to be modified from Studio Controls so a user can add more actual channels? I have a 4.0 surround system, and currently the only way I can add channels is by modding the py file.
[22:42] <kraus[m]> Not only add and subtract them, but map them.
[22:42] <OvenWerk1> devices are supposed to be able to do this as well but I have not ever gotten it to work
[22:42] <OvenWerk1> map?
[22:42] <kraus[m]> Yes `channel_map=etc,etc,etc,etc`
[22:43] <OvenWerk1> for the dummy back end?
[22:44] <OvenWerk1> This is supposed to replace an actual device which will always have channels labeled system:playback_1 to system:playback_n
[22:44] <kraus[m]> https://www.freedesktop.org/wiki/Software/PulseAudio/Documentation/User/Modules/
[22:44] <OvenWerk1> I think you are thinking of pulse
[22:44] <OvenWerk1> That link is for pulse not for jack
[22:44] <kraus[m]> >channel_map
[22:44] <kraus[m]> >    Channel map. A list of comma-separated channel names. The currently defined channel names are: left, right, mono, center, front-left, front-right, front-center, rear-center, rear-left, rear-right, lfe, subwoofer, front-left-of-center, front-right-of-center, side-left, side-right, aux0, aux1 to aux15, top-center, top-front-left, top-front-right, top-front-center, top-rear-left, top-rear-right,
[22:44] <kraus[m]> top-rear-center, (Default depends on the number of channels and the driver)
[22:45] <OvenWerk1> Kraus: that is pulse not JACK
[22:45] <kraus[m]> Right, but doesn't autojack bridge things to pulse?
[22:45] <OvenWerk1> the dummy back end have nothing to do with that
[22:45] <kraus[m]> Not sure what a dummy back end is.
[22:45] <kraus[m]> Not sure if I'm even referring to it?
[22:45] <OvenWerk1> in fact jack does not bridge anything at all
[22:46] <kraus[m]> What's the pulse bridges tab?
[22:46] <OvenWerk1> all bridging is done externally to jack by other software that acts as a jack client
[22:46] <OvenWerk1> Those bridges are actually pulse modules running as a part of pulse
[22:46] <kraus[m]> Okay, I have the upgrade done. Do I need to reboot my machine for them to take effect?
[22:46] <OvenWerk1> proably
[22:47] <kraus[m]> Alright, brb
[22:56] <kraus[m]> Alright, even though I just upgraded (hopefully with the backports enabled?) the controls are still showing the old version and layout.
[22:56]  * kraus[m]  < https://matrix.org/_matrix/media/r0/download/matrix.org/lpRylXilwiOCotupiCEWOYzN/message.txt >
[22:57] <Eickmeyer[m]> kraus: uninstall ubuntustudio-controls. That's a dummy package. Then do sudo apt full-upgrade
[22:57] <kraus[m]> Got it
[22:58]  * kraus[m]  < https://matrix.org/_matrix/media/r0/download/matrix.org/LcBjOAqkYubAKXVnkhzgUTnB/message.txt >
[22:58] <kraus[m]> Ahhah!
[22:59] <kraus[m]> Studio Controls got upgraded, but apparently the full-upgrade command wasn't needed.
[22:59] <kraus[m]> Wow, okay I see the changes finally! Woot!
[23:03] <kraus[m]> Are you guys sure we need three layers of tabs? There has to be a better way...
[23:03]  * kraus[m] uploaded an image: (8KiB) < https://matrix.org/_matrix/media/r0/download/matrix.org/RTcOQBQgvDEkKyRlucKojblk/image.png >
[23:04] <kraus[m]> The first thing that tells me it's unnecessary is that most fields are duplicates. All that needs to be done is better layout.
[23:04] <OvenWerk1> Kraus: It would be possible to to replace pulse I/O tabs with one dirrection selector
[23:04] <kraus[m]> (direction selector?)
[23:05] <OvenWerk1> Yes this bridge is a source or this bridge is a sink
[23:06]  * OvenWerk1 makes many spelling mistakes, some from fast typing some from dyslexia, some from lazziness
[23:06] <kraus[m]> My way of doing it would be to place the text on the left, then the in / out dropdowns on the right. Above it, label it.
[23:06] <kraus[m]> That's fine. I have lysdexia. It's where I think I typo but not really.
[23:08] <kraus[m]> What was the resolution we wanna stay under? 1280x800?
[23:09] <OvenWerk1> Yeah the 800 high - 35 for the pannel
[23:10] <OvenWerk1> -another 35 or 40 for window decorations
[23:10] <kraus[m]> I was a major fan of Winamp if that tells you how compact I'd like to make things ;)
[23:12] <kraus[m]> The way I see it, if this thing can't be compact and efficient enough to see in the corner of some musician's monitor, it ain't compact enough. Granted GTK has limitations, but that would be the aim, to make it as out of the way as possible while still packing the best punch.
[23:14] <OvenWerk1> I have no problem with that. SO long as the widgets keep the same name and probably properties, I am less worried about where they land.
[23:14] <kraus[m]> My wish would be to have this sit as an icon in the system tray and pop down when needed.
[23:15] <kraus[m]> <OvenWerk1 "I have no problem with that. SO "> Yes, I was going to ask. the names of widgets and labels, etc. Those are tied into the C code I'm guessing?
[23:15] <OvenWerk1> I was looking at adding some graphics/video settings for drawing tablets and video loopbacks
[23:15] <OvenWerk1> python code
[23:16] <kraus[m]> Python, got it.. yeah, I was thinking about standardizing the IDs but didn't want to touch that until I understood
[23:16] <OvenWerk1> labels are not as critical... most of them. There is one or two that change depending on state
[23:17] <kraus[m]> If I were to standardize the way they're lableled, and match them to the python code, would that be of help?
[23:17] <kraus[m]>  * If I were to standardize the way they're labelled, and match them to the python code, would that be of help?
[23:17] <OvenWerk1> the latest are more standardized than the first. This was my learn to code python project in many ways
[23:18] <kraus[m]> Ahhh~ Okay :)
[23:18] <kraus[m]> Yeah, you're ahead of me in that regard. I'm probably going to be learning a bit off of your code :)
[23:18] <OvenWerk1> The python code for this is all in /usr/bin/studio-controls
[23:19]  * kraus[m] uploaded an image: (5KiB) < https://matrix.org/_matrix/media/r0/download/matrix.org/lPSsTMciORzpQcyYVsqlveEa/image.png >
[23:19] <kraus[m]> These three buttons here:
[23:19] <OvenWerk1> most of the objects were smeone elses work work except for the device one
[23:20] <kraus[m]> Oh! And System Tweaks. Since that's of less priority than Audio Setup, my intuition tells me to rearrange the order of the tabs
[23:20] <OvenWerk1> Those three buttons start one of three session managers
[23:20]  * kraus[m] uploaded an image: (2KiB) < https://matrix.org/_matrix/media/r0/download/matrix.org/KqdHZouvGayFzyklSMcCFgwW/image.png >
[23:22] <OvenWerk1> for new users system may need to be looked at first but after first use, the audio tab shold probably be default.
[23:22] <kraus[m]> Plus I'm also wondering of the hierarchy. Do we really need JACK Master Settings, Extra Devices, Pulse Bridging, and Session Management to be a second layer of tabs? What other items do you anticipate being next to Tweaks and Audio Setup?
[23:23] <OvenWerk1> Eickmeyer[m]: ^ this is a good question.
[23:23] <kraus[m]> Also, could save some room by removing "JACK" from the tab labels. If a Tool Tip is used, it could provide additional context, but save horizontal room in the layout.
[23:23] <OvenWerk1> Kraus: at one time we were looking at it from a ubuntustudio only perspective
[23:23] <kraus[m]> <OvenWerk1 "Kraus: at one time we were looki"> AHhh~
[23:24] <Eickmeyer[m]> I agree. At this point, they don't need to be a second layer of tabs.  I think there would be some value in promoting them.
[23:24] <OvenWerk1> in which case having a tab for graphic settings and video settings made sense
[23:24] <kraus[m]> I can totally do that as soon as the developer of Glade explains how I can re-order tabs, and compile/build 3.38 :) I was getting Meson Errors.. waiting for him to reply.
[23:24] <kraus[m]> > <xjuan> yeah there is a position packing property
[23:25] <kraus[m]> Ahhah!
[23:25] <OvenWerk1> It is not hard to reorder tabs
[23:25] <kraus[m]> I wish I could just drag and drop them into place like in Libre Office.
[23:25] <kraus[m]> Glade's pretty nice though.
[23:25] <kraus[m]>  * Glade's pretty nice though. Just a tad buggy.
[23:26] <OvenWerk1> Kraus: what I would do is first move all the one down tabs up and then deleat audio then reorder
[23:26] <kraus[m]> Yeah.
[23:27] <kraus[m]>  * Yeah. I'll get to it asap. Just need to fix my glade stuff. Can't run it at this point.
[23:27] <OvenWerk1> Also, I would like you to use my current version.
[23:28] <kraus[m]> Also, there is also another very cost-efficient way to deal with these tabs, provided there are a lot. If kept briefly worded, and if there are plenty of them, stick them on the left of the notebook.
[23:28] <kraus[m]> So, if you're anticipating there will be more tabs for video, etc, that might be something we want to look into.
[23:29] <kraus[m]> Main categories up top: Video, Audio, Etc, etc., then the sub-tabs on the left: Master Settings, Extra Devices, etc, etc.
[23:29] <OvenWerk1> Kraus: maybe pull from the "next" branch at github
[23:29] <kraus[m]> I'll need to learn how to do that in just a sec. :)
[23:32] <OvenWerk1> There ar still some changes locally I have not committed yet but nothing here is gui
[23:44] <kraus[m]> Slightly off-topic but has anyone here ever tried building glade? I wanted to try version 3.38. Apt only has 3.22, so I built it following https://gitlab.gnome.org/GNOME/glade and here's what ended up happening. https://pastebin.com/NaMfrnKx
[23:44] <kraus[m]> I sent this to Juan in his IRC channel, but I think he's in European time and might be asleep now.
[23:46] <OvenWerk1> On my system itstool is installed
[23:47] <kraus[m]> Let's try that...
[23:47] <kraus[m]> I guess that was a dependency he didn't list