[12:06] <cmaloney> morning
[14:48] <jrwren> anyone following the FSF stuff know of efforts to make a debian/ubuntu that is FSF free? seems like it is a matter of packaging. there are plenty of coreutils replacements, there is glibc replacement, and there is clang.
[14:48] <jrwren> is it straightforeward and just requires some work?
[15:00] <greg-g> I'd rather not fall into the trap of throwing out all of the work of volunteers who aren't RMS just because they use GPL or had their project within GNU (eg: guix, etc). There is a good segment of them who are working to remove RMS from GNU, so let's not throw our their good work and good will.
[15:01] <cmaloney> Yeah, I'm feeling the same thing as greg-g
[15:02] <cmaloney> If I were to throw everything out I'd move to BSD or a Macintosh.
[15:11] <jrwren> not throwing it out. lets say I simply don't want to use it. maybe even for other reasons.
[15:17] <cmaloney> I thought I saw something along these lines, but my searching fu is failing me
[15:21] <jrwren> no worries. I can always build on alpine
[15:40] <greg-g> but why don't you want to use it? guilt by association? That's not very fair to the devs that did eg: https://gnu.tools/ (started around when RMS was initially removed from the board in 2019)
[15:41] <greg-g> there's good people and good things in the GNU world. If we can get RMS to fucking retire from it (or fork it or something) we'll be better off than "choosing not to use it"
[15:42] <jrwren> at this point, i'm not sure i agree.
[15:42] <jrwren> historically there were. presently, it seems to remain associated is to claim support of.
[15:43] <greg-g> yeah, I see that, but what I want to do is to give the good people in the GNU world time to figure out their destiny, not make their choice for them
[15:43]  * greg-g shrugs
[15:43] <jrwren> or i'm struggling to find the line between FSF and GNU
[15:43] <greg-g> maybe it means starting a new org on gitlab.com and being done with it
[15:45] <cmaloney> https://wingolog.org/archives/2021/03/25/here-we-go-again
[15:45] <cmaloney> From the maintainer of Guile
[15:46] <cmaloney> There's definitely nuance to all of this, but I wouldn't blame anyone for wanting to burn everything to the ground
[15:46] <greg-g> yeah, I was thinking specifically of wingo (who I'm in a shared channel with right now)
[15:46] <cmaloney> grief is like that
[15:46] <greg-g> and cwebber, of course
[15:46] <greg-g> who... I haven't heard much from in the last few days on social....
[15:46] <cmaloney> the cool kid's table. ;)
[15:46] <cmaloney> Yeah, I can imagine this is soul-crushing for them
[15:47] <greg-g> I've been backchanneling a bit with Kat Walsh (mindspillage) and boy... yes. This shit is hard. It's so fucking important and he fucking ruined it but it's still fucking important
[15:48] <cmaloney> Yeah, Kat has been the only one to show guts in this whole mess
[15:48] <greg-g> another thing I want to add: we, as a society, are pretty bad at differentiating between "bad people" and "their ideas might still be good". We have the same problem with our founding fathers and all that.
[15:48] <cmaloney> (at least of anyone in the inner-circule)
[15:48]  * greg-g nods
[15:48] <cmaloney> greg-g: RMS Is HP Lovefract for me
[15:48] <greg-g> heh
[15:48] <cmaloney> Lovecraft
[15:49] <cmaloney> Great mythos, influential as heck, and problematic as fuck
[15:49] <cmaloney> Robert W Chambers as well
[15:49] <greg-g> maybe it's a function of "cancel culture" (which, to be clear, I'm very for canceling (deplatforming, ceasing business with, etc etc) shit heads left and right, but sometimes the mob mentality takes innocent bystanders
[15:50] <greg-g> dangit, unbalanced parens
[15:50] <greg-g> s/)/))/
[15:50] <cmaloney> That medium article about public software really resonated with me, in part because it highlighted that the FSF's only weapon is boycotting
[15:51] <cmaloney> there's no other lobbying tool they've developed
[15:51] <cmaloney> and it's pulled together a community of boycotting
[15:52] <cmaloney> (more of a datapoint than anything useful)
[15:54] <greg-g> wait, which article?
[15:55] <cmaloney> feh. one sec.
[15:57] <cmaloney> https://r0ml.medium.com/free-software-an-idea-whose-time-has-passed-6570c1d8218a
[15:57] <cmaloney> https://twitter.com/r0ml/status/1374833219359637509 if that link doesn't work, because Medium
[15:57] <cmaloney> I don't agree with it 100% but it got my rusty gears turning
[15:59] <greg-g> I tried to quote a medium article yesterday and it had the shit ass js copy blocker shit and I didn't care enough to circumvent it so I didn't share the article. good job, shit heads
[15:59]  * greg-g is in a mood, obviously :)
[15:59] <cmaloney> yeah, Medium is definitely reader-hostile.
[16:01] <jrwren> yes, medium is terrible.
[16:01] <jrwren> i'm a shit and i downvote them hwen I see htem posted to reddit ;)
[16:02] <cmaloney> In medium's case I think the "don't kill the messenger" deserves an exception
[16:04] <greg-g> jrwren: heh
[16:05] <jrwren> dev.to is a great medium alternative, at least for tech
[16:05] <Scary_Guy> https://wiki.debian.org/Debian_GNU/kFreeBSD
[16:05] <Scary_Guy> Just thought I'd throw it out there
[16:07] <Scary_Guy> Also https://www.reddit.com/r/debian/comments/k76kpf/why_debian_is_not_approved_by_fsf_even_for_free/ I believe answers jwren's question.
[16:12] <Scary_Guy> brb
[17:28] <cmaloney> Open SSL vuln. Patch yo stuff.
[19:44] <cmaloney> hello again