[01:54] <lotuspsychje> good morning
[06:20] <ducasse> good morning
[06:48] <marcoagpinto> Hello!
[07:07] <daftykins> good morn
[12:01] <Deano59> lotuspsychje: why am I a troll to you? I haven't done anything wrong. I even ignored blueskaj so I don't see his off-topic crap.
[12:02] <lotuspsychje> Deano59: trolls keep trolling ot stuff in main just like you
[12:02] <lotuspsychje> you know well enough discussions dont fit there
[12:02] <Deano59> you suggested snaps, I gave my opinion. that's not trolling.
[12:02] <lotuspsychje> opinions dont fit in the support channel
[12:03] <Deano59> neither does "howdy folks" but you allow that...
[12:03]  * Deano59 shrugs
[12:03] <lotuspsychje> saying hi isnt offtopic nor forbidden
[12:03] <TJ-> of course opinions fit! That's all we do!
[12:03] <Deano59> k
[12:03] <Deano59> lotuspsychje: won't happen again. :)
[12:04] <TJ-> users generally expect/think that support for snaps is part of the Ubuntu community offer, and are surprised to learn it isn't
[12:04] <TJ-> You'll not stop me mentioning it
[12:04] <Deano59> TJ-: don't even bother. not worth the hassle. you get labelled as a "troll"
[12:05] <TJ-> Deano59: I've been working on Ubuntu as a developer and leading community support person since 2005. I will say it
[12:05] <lotuspsychje> yeah it should have been divided
[12:06] <Deano59> I guess I'll use this channel more then and #ubuntu for support. :) lotuspsychje is that fine with you?
[12:06] <lotuspsychje> how about you go find out the rules in #ubuntu-ops next time Deano59
[12:07] <Deano59> what?
[12:07] <TJ-> The /topic in #ubuntu should clearly mention no support for snaps
[12:08] <Deano59> don't be silly, that won't happen.
[12:08] <TJ-> right, so until it does, I will mention it
[12:09] <lotuspsychje> TJ-: some snaps are canonical feeded, so its a mix right
[12:09] <TJ-> lotuspsychje: but they aren't community supported
[12:09] <lotuspsychje> if they have a launchpad community can also help?
[12:10] <Deano59> lotuspsychje: can I PM you?
[12:10] <lotuspsychje> no way Deano59
[12:10] <Deano59> k... I'll ask here if I can't PM. what's your problem?
[12:10] <lotuspsychje> i dont have a problem why?
[12:11] <Deano59> you keep judging me, and I'm sick of it.
[12:11] <TJ-> users need to be aware of the pitfalls of installing snaps and make an informed decision on whether or not to use them BEFORE they find themselves needing support
[12:11] <lotuspsychje> Deano59: im not judging you, i pointed you to not going offtopic in #ubuntu thats all
[12:11] <TJ-> otherwise it has the appearance of bait-and-switch
[12:12] <lotuspsychje> i agree to that TJ-
[12:12] <Deano59> "<lotuspsychje> dont listen to him inbe4 he's the troll of the year around here"
[12:12] <lotuspsychje> Deano59: thats my opinion, not a judgement
[12:12] <TJ-> that was out of order, and against the code of conduct
[12:12] <Deano59> thanks TJ- :)
[12:13] <lotuspsychje> that was preventing bad advice to new joined users
[12:13] <TJ-> disagree; it is good advice
[12:13] <TJ-> And I shall continue to give it
[12:13] <Deano59> again, thanks TJ- :)
 snaps are bad. don't use them.
[12:14] <Deano59> yes, they are. so?
[12:14] <lotuspsychje> thats really not the thing to say to users
[12:14] <TJ-> making personal comments is not acceptable; you can disagree with the advice all you want and state WHY
[12:14] <lotuspsychje> snaps are bad, is an opinion common
[12:15] <TJ-> snaps are bad; they eoncourage laziness in developers and publishers
[12:15] <Deano59> ^ :D
[12:15] <lotuspsychje> we cant generalize that TJ-
[12:15] <TJ-> if using them, make an informed decision
[12:15] <TJ-> lotuspsychje: yes, we can, based on the evidence since they were launched
[12:15] <Deano59> snaps are terrible, worst thing to happen to ubuntu. and I <3 ubuntu.
[12:16] <lotuspsychje> as long as ubuntu supports it, its not a thing to say in the support channel
[12:16] <Deano59> neither is name-calling but you done it.
[12:16] <lotuspsychje> we can discuss it here
[12:16] <TJ-> opaque; no changelogs for updates, no tracking of snaps affected by CVEs by the security team or others
[12:17] <lotuspsychje> Deano59: thats because you been trolling day after day in the support channel, its the truth, not namecalling
[12:17] <TJ-> and many are published in unconfined (classic) mode not locked-down yet many people believe snap = confined
[12:18] <Deano59> ? how many times, I'm not a troll. just because I THINK greeting a support channel and provoking users into starting a conversation with "howdy" is off-topic isn't trolling. I was asked to stop so I put blueskaj on ignore. sorry but you're wrong lotuspsychje.
[12:19] <Deano59> maybe YOU should read the code of conduct.
[12:19] <TJ-> the argument that snaps package things that need frequent updates quicker than the distor release cadence just means the code is so buggy the developers don't think they can create secure applications and would rather just throw code out and let the users do the testing
[12:19] <lotuspsychje> Deano59: why dont you put everyone on ignore that says hi then?
[12:19] <lotuspsychje> Deano59: inbe4 said hello, why didnt you pick on him too?
[12:19] <TJ-> Those are scripted Hi's too, across all channels. Most organised channels frown on such things
[12:19] <Deano59> hi, then a question is fine. just howdy and going quiet waiting for a reply is off-topic. SIMPLE. I was asked to stop so I did/
[12:20] <TJ-> but we've indulged Blueskaj on that for years
[12:20] <Deano59> TJ-: thanks! can't get through to some people. I was asked to stop, so I did and ignored him.
[12:21] <lotuspsychje> i said good morning a lot of times in ubuntu, nobody told me to stop that ever
[12:21] <Deano59> saying hi, i have xyz problem is fine. but just "howdy folks" is trying to start a conversation and THUS off-topic.
[12:21] <TJ-> lotuspsychje: but you typed it - not a script on every channel joined simultaneously
[12:21] <Deano59> exactly.
[12:22] <lotuspsychje> blueskaj also types it
[12:22] <Deano59> saying hi, i have xyz problem is fine. but just "howdy folks" is trying to start a conversation and THUS off-topic.
[12:22] <TJ-> Saying anything like that on IRC implies trying to ellicit a response, or awareness you're there, which really isn't necessary most of the time
[12:22] <Deano59> maybe YOU should read the CoC and respect others lotuspsychje instead of throwing "omg you're a troll!11!!!"
[12:23] <TJ-> lotuspsychje: if he does, he's unusually fast; it appears in every channel he's in simultanously
[12:23] <Deano59> TJ-: couldn't have said it better myself. :)
[12:24] <lotuspsychje> i respect others Deano59, i just pointed you to going offtopic in main and bad advice
[12:24] <Deano59> then say that. don't throw out the "he's a troll, ignore him" to new users.
[12:24] <TJ-> I should run a script analyse the standard devation of the timestamps in each channel, from my last 10 years logs
[12:24] <lotuspsychje> and as you terrorizing the support channel so many times lately, you are a troll
[12:24] <Deano59> I'm NOT a troll.
[12:24] <lotuspsychje> now ill move on
[12:25] <Deano59> and now I'll ignore you. :)
[12:25] <TJ-> lotuspsychje: you've done it again, remember the CoC applies here
[12:25] <Deano59> TJ-: thanks TJ- :)
[12:25] <TJ-> "This is a channel for high quality on-topic non-support discussions" ^^^ in the /topic
[12:26] <lotuspsychje> we are discussing right
[12:26] <Deano59> also in the /topic "| We follow the CoC at all times here |"
[12:26] <TJ-> that doesn't include calling names
[12:26] <Deano59> ^ :D
[12:26] <Deano59> it's okay, I put him on ignore.
[12:26] <lotuspsychje> in my opinion its not namecaling but a fact
[12:27]  * Deano59 goes back to lurking... :D
[12:27] <TJ-> "Be respectful
[12:27] <TJ-> Disagreement is no excuse for poor manners. We work together to resolve conflict, assume good intentions and do our best to act in an empathic fashion. We don’t allow frustration to turn into a personal attack. "
[12:29] <lotuspsychje> this isnt personal for me TJ-
[12:30] <TJ-> it is for Deano59 !
[12:30] <TJ-> Again from the CoC "A community where people feel uncomfortable or threatened is not a productive one."
[12:33] <lotuspsychje> TJ-: back to the snap topic, i would have loved to see the snaps jailed into a snap-store optional installed and not as default
[12:34] <lotuspsychje> with ubuntu on apt packages as base only by default
[12:34] <lotuspsychje> but that doesnt mean 'all' snaps are bad
[12:35] <Deano59> thanks TJ- :)
[12:35] <lotuspsychje> some are pretty good
[12:35] <TJ-> Yes; from my observations the aim of snaps was/is for Canonical to capture developer mindshare, despite the OS rather than to improve it
[12:36] <TJ-> it doesn't encourage those developers to help develop the Ubuntu project or ecosystem, it gives them a way to avoid it
[12:37] <TJ-> And it's pretty obvious that snapcraft.io is aiming to emulate Google/Apple 'app' stores and at some point monetise it (must cost a lot for Canoniccal to vet applications as they claim they do)
[12:38] <TJ-> Next thing is, there's ads being injected into snaps in some way
[12:40] <TJ-> I've watched how, technically, the snap API is getting bigger as more diverse applications look for ways to interact with the rest of the OS, which is of course enlarging the attack surface