/srv/irclogs.ubuntu.com/2021/08/31/#ubuntu-meeting.txt

ddstreeto/14:30
cpaelzerhi ddstreet14:30
cpaelzerddstreet: could you look at my mail reply if you could make this into an updated pastebin as well14:30
sarnoldgood morning14:30
ddstreetcpaelzer yep i just replied with link to a pastebin already :)14:30
* ddstreet gets quick coffee refill14:30
ddstreetoh wait you replied again14:31
ddstreetok lemme check that14:31
cpaelzerddstreet: hit refresh - there is one more14:31
dokoo/14:31
cpaelzer:-)14:31
cpaelzer#startmeeting Weekly Main Inclusion Requests status14:31
meetingologyMeeting started at 14:31:20 UTC.  The chair is cpaelzer.  Information about MeetBot at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology14:31
meetingologyAvailable commands: action, commands, idea, info, link, nick14:31
cpaelzerddstreet doko didrocks sarnold jamespage - hello14:31
didrockshey14:31
cpaelzer#topic Review of previous action items14:31
ddstreetack lemme grab coffee then i'll update with a new pastebin14:32
cpaelzerwe have pushed the definnition of the rule changes to the mailing list14:32
cpaelzerI think we've made progress there14:32
* doko hides, haven't done adsys yet14:32
cpaelzerall agree on a change being worthwile14:32
* didrocks looks at doko :)14:32
cpaelzerwe are just polishing the words itself14:32
cpaelzerI'd suggest that ddstreet and I drive this into conclusion with what is on the mails already14:32
cpaelzerany opposing voices before we decide to do to?14:32
sarnoldI've not seen anything in the last 11.5 hours or so..14:33
sarnolddid I miss any "interesting" updates to the text? :)14:33
cpaelzerddstreet: had nicer words to my suggestion to make the "commit to testing" a bit harder14:33
cpaelzerand I have replied to the discussion that we might want to see test scripts/docs and a sample log14:34
cpaelzerjust that it is  proven to exist and not just an intent14:34
cpaelzerwe will get a new pastebin later this meeting and then do a vote on it14:34
cpaelzerI'll go through the normal agenda now14:34
sarnoldoh excellent, sometimes I have great trouble spotting the actual test execution14:34
cpaelzer#topic current component mismatches14:34
cpaelzer#link https://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-archive/component-mismatches-proposed.svg14:35
cpaelzer#link https://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-archive/component-mismatches.svg14:35
cpaelzerusually I say nothing new, then sarnold tells me what I have missed14:35
cpaelzerIMHO nothing new ...14:35
sarnoldshall we swap places today? I see nothing new14:35
ddstreetok sorry back with coffee now14:35
cpaelzerno ddstreet14:35
cpaelzerhehe14:35
cpaelzerthe rest will be just as fast today14:35
cpaelzer#topic New MIRs14:35
cpaelzer#link https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/?field.searchtext=&orderby=-date_last_updated&field.status%3Alist=NEW&field.status%3Alist=CONFIRMED&assignee_option=none&field.assignee=&field.subscriber=ubuntu-mir14:35
cpaelzerempty14:35
ddstreetyeah going fast today!14:35
cpaelzerthe one incoming last week I have copleted14:36
cpaelzerdoko: already admited to be aware but late on adsys14:36
cpaelzer#topic Incomplete bugs / questions14:36
cpaelzer#link https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/?field.searchtext=&orderby=-date_last_updated&field.status%3Alist=INCOMPLETE_WITH_RESPONSE&field.status%3Alist=INCOMPLETE_WITHOUT_RESPONSE&field.subscriber=ubuntu-mir14:36
cpaelzernothing new here14:36
cpaelzer#topic Any other business?14:36
cpaelzerwell, now ddstreet if you had the time to complete a new pastebin we could vote14:36
didrocksnothing for me14:36
sarnoldnothing for me14:37
cpaelzerI have a pre-discussion to do - which is about the current process forces a bit of "the first being the victim"14:37
ddstreetcpaelzer ok https://pastebin.canonical.com/p/CZnNtWkGbK/14:37
cpaelzerthat means that e.g. the first rust package that will have to go into main will have to own 95% of the package std-libs14:38
ddstreetcrap that's canonical pastebin, lemme get an uubntu one14:38
cpaelzerok let me continue on that after we've hadnled the paste of ddstreet14:38
ddstreethttps://pastebin.ubuntu.com/p/tpyKDPT7r4/14:38
cpaelzerI like it14:38
cpaelzerI'd also extend the check template to consider that14:38
ddstreetyes14:39
ddstreetagreed14:39
cpaelzerI'm not formally asking for votes14:39
cpaelzerthe time I need to check meetinology syntax will be wasted :-)14:39
cpaelzer+^ from me14:39
cpaelzerdoko says yes as well14:39
cpaelzerddstreet:  has suggested it14:39
cpaelzersarnold:  / ddstreet - what about you ?14:39
ddstreetyes +1 from me14:39
sarnoldsometimes autopkgtests are the thinnest of tests..14:39
cpaelzeryep14:40
cpaelzersarnold: but on MIR review we look if they are Kindergarden and might reject it14:40
cpaelzerthis is just about the excuse of "can't be done at biuld/autopkgtest because of special HW"14:40
sarnold.. while I've never seen anything remotely looking like .. lazyness? deviousness? from any of my colleagues, ever, I do slightly worry that a five-line autopkgtest might be enough to 'absolve' a team from helping to test something14:40
sarnoldtelling just how good a test suite is is pretty difficult to do, so I don't have any awesome answers, but maybe adding a "non-trivial" around line 5 or 6 would help me :)14:42
cpaelzerI think the proposal here makes the rules better14:42
sarnold"substantive"?14:42
cpaelzeradded non-trivial14:42
ddstreetit's true, but sometimes even just a basic sanity check is better than nothing, e.g. for needrestart i required some test, but all that could be done at first was pretty basic https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/needrestart/+bug/190742214:42
ubottuLaunchpad bug 1907422 in needrestart (Ubuntu) "[MIR] needrestart + dependencies" [Undecided, Fix Released]14:42
cpaelzerthat is easy and reasonable14:42
didrocksI think people can understand non-trivial and agree on the term :)14:43
cpaelzeryes14:43
cpaelzerI'd be ok to hit save on the wiki14:43
cpaelzerwe overall seem to be +114:43
sarnoldexcellent, thanks14:43
sarnold+1 :D14:43
cpaelzerall requested amends are done14:43
cpaelzerthanks everyone14:44
cpaelzerlet me quickly complete my former thought14:44
ddstreetthanks14:44
cpaelzerjust to plant the seed not to exhaustively discuss it today14:44
cpaelzerthat means that e.g. the first rust package that will have to go into main will have to own 95% of the package std-libs14:44
cpaelzerusually foundations would be toolchain/stdlib14:44
cpaelzerso I wonder (especially @doko) how we'd want to do that14:44
cpaelzerhow was it with golang14:45
cpaelzershould I just talk with Matt14:45
cpaelzerare there other suggestions14:45
cpaelzerfull-disclosure: I have a very trivial, but rust based package coming14:45
cpaelzerso I'm interested to NOT own too many rusty things not close to what I'm actually trying to use/support14:46
cpaelzerIf there are immediate thought let me know, otherwise let this echo a bit14:46
cpaelzerand in next weeks actions  section we cna check what we think about it14:46
didrocksthe issue with rust is that you still have a lot of breaking changes between releases, making other packages not building, correct? (my info on rust are now very rusty, like multiple years old :p)14:46
sarnoldyeah, even though they've got the 'semver' idea of trying to clearly label breaking changes, that's only as good as the human updating the version number, and of course some folks just plain don't care to maintain older packages..14:47
sarnoldI have the impression that they're better about it than the golang folks but perhaps not as good as highly-disciplined C projects14:48
didrockswell, on golang, you don’t have that problem with golang itself and the stdlib (basically since the V1 and compatibility promise), the issue is then more about other libraries that don’t use semver, and so, you "only" impact a small set of reverse deps14:49
didrocksbut yeah, the first one who needs an update on one of those would pay the price of it as cpaelzer says14:49
cpaelzerright now the package is trivial and I'm trying to keep the rust move until after 22.0414:50
sarnoldthis README has some breadcrumbs on more painful rust crate version updates https://github.com/dtolnay/semver-trick14:50
cpaelzerbut then upstream switched and as soon as there is a hard dep on the new things I've a problem14:50
cpaelzerthanks for the links and thoughts14:50
sarnold"During the most recent libcpocalypse, Servo found themselves coordinating an upgrade of 52 libraries over a period of three months"14:50
cpaelzerI'd still suggest that to some extend that is more case of "foundations gets half a head-count" instead of random-team-will-own rust14:51
sarnoldas much as I like rust, I'm worried that some day the whole ecosystem is going to jam into one solid ball that can't be shifted14:51
sarnoldcpaelzer: hah, I was thinking more "we need a dedicated golang team and a dedicated rust team"14:51
cpaelzeryou are not making me feel better about is sarnold14:51
cpaelzerthanks for the pre-thoughts on this everyone14:51
sarnoldalas I don't have a line item to spend :)14:52
cpaelzerI guess we can conclude for today14:52
cpaelzerthanks!14:52
sarnoldthanks cpaelzer, all :)14:52
* didrocks thought that sarnold was clearly committing… :)14:52
didrocksthanks everyone14:52
cpaelzer#endmeeting14:52
meetingologyMeeting ended at 14:52:35 UTC.  Minutes at https://new.ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2021/ubuntu-meeting.2021-08-31-14.31.moin.txt14:52
sarnold\o/14:52
=== genii-away is now known as genii
sil2100-NAo/18:53
rbasako/18:55
cyphermoxo/18:57
sil2100-NA...can you hear me?18:59
sil2100-NAIm writing from my phone18:59
rbasaksil2100-NA: yes. Hello!19:00
cyphermoxyup19:00
cyphermox#startmeeting Ubuntu Technical Board19:00
meetingologyMeeting started at 19:00:41 UTC.  The chair is cyphermox.  Information about MeetBot at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology19:00
meetingologyAvailable commands: action, commands, idea, info, link, nick19:00
rbasakvorlon: coming?19:00
cyphermox#chair cyphermox rbasak19:00
cyphermox#topic Apologies19:00
cyphermoxmdeslaur already sent his apologies on the mailing list.19:00
meetingologyCurrent chairs: cyphermox, rbasak19:00
cyphermoxno vorlon?19:03
rbasakI think three is enough for us to proceed19:04
cyphermoxyeah, just giving people time19:04
cyphermox#topic Action review19:04
cyphermox#subtopic Wimpress To follow-up on-list with design review to address MATE Boutique security/consent concerns.19:05
rbasakI found https://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2021/05/28/%23ubuntu-desktop.html#t10:4219:05
rbasakThat's the last discussion on the matter AFAIK.19:05
cyphermoxthat's good19:05
cyphermoxwell, it's carry in any case19:05
rbasakIt sounds to me that the issue will be addressed, but there's no time frame for it.19:05
cyphermoxyou think we should drop?19:06
rbasakIMHO, these things need deadlines if we ever want them to happen.19:07
cyphermoxwell, sure, but we're departing from the MATE boutique concerns and more into whether some flavor will continue or not19:08
rbasakWhich is difficult to impose on volunteers of course19:08
cyphermoxyup yup19:08
cyphermox#subtopic formal ratification of third party seeded snap security policy, depends on:19:09
cyphermox#subtopic vorlon to circle around with store, snapcraft, et all, and revise the snap source revision policy to be more clear with regards to rebuildability and GPL compliance.19:09
cyphermox#subtopic vorlon to reply to seeded snap upload permissions question on list19:09
cyphermoxcarry, since vorlon isn't here.19:10
cyphermox#subtopic sil2100 to start a draft summarizing the OEM archive portion of the meeting which xnox and TB will review, edit, and ratify before we move on to figuring out the next step19:10
cyphermoxsil2100-NA: not sure if you're getting everything on your phone; pinging you in case you didn't see ^, take your time19:10
sil2100-NASo, I have something, but not much - started on the wiki, will give a link later when I'm home ;)19:11
cyphermoxalright :)19:12
cyphermox#subtopic rbasak to follow up regarding security-team's advice on the flatpak TB request19:12
rbasakI did the follow up. We haven't heard back from the security team (same status as last meeting)19:12
cyphermoxyup ok19:13
rbasakHow should we proceed?19:13
sarnold:(19:13
cyphermoxperhaps replace that with an "harass security team" action?19:13
sarnold:)19:13
cyphermoxhey sarnold19:13
rbasakIf only there were a security team member on the TB who could liase :)19:14
cyphermoxguess the harassing is already done and we can revisit this next meeting?19:14
rbasakMaybe give Marc an action even though he's not here?19:14
cyphermoxsure19:14
cyphermoxACTION: mdeslaur to follow-up/respond for security team on advice for the flatpak TB request19:15
cyphermoxdoes that seem about right?19:15
rbasakMaybe make it clear it's the policykit thing19:15
rbasakAs opposed to the DisplayCAL thing19:15
cyphermoxand I'm not sure why meetingology is so silent19:15
cyphermoxack19:15
cyphermoxI will adjust in the agenda notes19:15
rbasak#action mdeslaur to follow-up/respond for security team on advice for the flatpak policykit TB request19:16
meetingologyACTION: mdeslaur to follow-up/respond for security team on advice for the flatpak policykit TB request19:16
cyphermoxheh19:16
cyphermoxthanks rbasak19:16
cyphermoxand then, we have19:17
cyphermox#subtopic Work on getting a set of requirements for Ubuntu packages that enable third party software repositiories by default - related to a ML entry (work document here: https://pad.ubuntu.com/third-party-repository-requirements )19:17
cyphermoxI have added my own notes to the doc, last week19:17
rbasakI hope everyone's done their homework? :)19:17
rbasakI don't see anything from vorlon or from mdeslaur19:17
rbasakOh Marc has made a couple of comments19:18
rbasakI'm not sure that the person proposing a specific requirement has written a comment justifying it though.19:19
rbasakWhich makes it difficult for me to decide if I agree or not.19:19
cyphermoxyep19:21
rbasakI just added to each proposed requirements a place for names19:21
cyphermoxnames as in who proposed?19:22
rbasakMaybe it would help if everyone could state their position on each proposal19:22
cyphermoxor should we vote for what we agree with19:22
cyphermoxah, yes19:22
rbasakAlso if it's not black or white, please do explain because we can still adjust each proposal as needed.19:22
cyphermoxyup19:24
cyphermox--> all TB members to "vote" or explain what they do not like of a proposal on https://pad.ubuntu.com/third-party-repository-requirements19:25
cyphermoxsounds good?19:25
rbasak+119:25
cyphermox#action all TB members to "vote" or explain what they do not like of a proposal on https://pad.ubuntu.com/third-party-repository-requirements19:25
meetingologyACTION: all TB members to "vote" or explain what they do not like of a proposal on https://pad.ubuntu.com/third-party-repository-requirements19:25
cyphermox#topic Other agenda items19:28
cyphermoxthere was only DisplayCAL / third party repos otherwise, which we've already "discussed"19:28
cyphermox#topic Pending mailing list items19:28
cyphermoxAs far as I could tell, nothing unaddressed in the ML.19:28
cyphermox#topic Community bugs19:29
cyphermoxZaroo bugs.19:29
rbasakI don't spot anything in ML eithe19:29
rbasakr19:29
cyphermox#topic Chair for next meeting19:29
cyphermox#agreed Next chair rbasak, backup would be vorlon.19:29
meetingologyAGREED: Next chair rbasak, backup would be vorlon.19:29
cyphermox#subtopic AOB19:29
cyphermoxAnything I missed?19:29
rbasakNothing from me.19:29
rbasakThank you for chairing!19:29
cyphermox#endmeeting19:30
meetingologyMeeting ended at 19:30:04 UTC.  Minutes at https://new.ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2021/ubuntu-meeting.2021-08-31-19.00.moin.txt19:30
cyphermoxthanks everyone!19:30
sil2100-NAThanks o/19:30
=== genii is now known as genii-core

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