[14:30] <ddstreet> o/
[14:30] <cpaelzer> hi ddstreet
[14:30] <cpaelzer> ddstreet: could you look at my mail reply if you could make this into an updated pastebin as well
[14:30] <sarnold> good morning
[14:30] <ddstreet> cpaelzer yep i just replied with link to a pastebin already :)
[14:30]  * ddstreet gets quick coffee refill
[14:31] <ddstreet> oh wait you replied again
[14:31] <ddstreet> ok lemme check that
[14:31] <cpaelzer> ddstreet: hit refresh - there is one more
[14:31] <doko> o/
[14:31] <cpaelzer> :-)
[14:31] <cpaelzer> #startmeeting Weekly Main Inclusion Requests status
[14:31] <meetingology> Meeting started at 14:31:20 UTC.  The chair is cpaelzer.  Information about MeetBot at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
[14:31] <meetingology> Available commands: action, commands, idea, info, link, nick
[14:31] <cpaelzer> ddstreet doko didrocks sarnold jamespage - hello
[14:31] <didrocks> hey
[14:31] <cpaelzer> #topic Review of previous action items
[14:32] <ddstreet> ack lemme grab coffee then i'll update with a new pastebin
[14:32] <cpaelzer> we have pushed the definnition of the rule changes to the mailing list
[14:32] <cpaelzer> I think we've made progress there
[14:32]  * doko hides, haven't done adsys yet
[14:32] <cpaelzer> all agree on a change being worthwile
[14:32]  * didrocks looks at doko :)
[14:32] <cpaelzer> we are just polishing the words itself
[14:32] <cpaelzer> I'd suggest that ddstreet and I drive this into conclusion with what is on the mails already
[14:32] <cpaelzer> any opposing voices before we decide to do to?
[14:33] <sarnold> I've not seen anything in the last 11.5 hours or so..
[14:33] <sarnold> did I miss any "interesting" updates to the text? :)
[14:33] <cpaelzer> ddstreet: had nicer words to my suggestion to make the "commit to testing" a bit harder
[14:34] <cpaelzer> and I have replied to the discussion that we might want to see test scripts/docs and a sample log
[14:34] <cpaelzer> just that it is  proven to exist and not just an intent
[14:34] <cpaelzer> we will get a new pastebin later this meeting and then do a vote on it
[14:34] <cpaelzer> I'll go through the normal agenda now
[14:34] <sarnold> oh excellent, sometimes I have great trouble spotting the actual test execution
[14:34] <cpaelzer> #topic current component mismatches
[14:35] <cpaelzer> #link https://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-archive/component-mismatches-proposed.svg
[14:35] <cpaelzer> #link https://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-archive/component-mismatches.svg
[14:35] <cpaelzer> usually I say nothing new, then sarnold tells me what I have missed
[14:35] <cpaelzer> IMHO nothing new ...
[14:35] <sarnold> shall we swap places today? I see nothing new
[14:35] <ddstreet> ok sorry back with coffee now
[14:35] <cpaelzer> no ddstreet
[14:35] <cpaelzer> hehe
[14:35] <cpaelzer> the rest will be just as fast today
[14:35] <cpaelzer> #topic New MIRs
[14:35] <cpaelzer> #link https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/?field.searchtext=&orderby=-date_last_updated&field.status%3Alist=NEW&field.status%3Alist=CONFIRMED&assignee_option=none&field.assignee=&field.subscriber=ubuntu-mir
[14:35] <cpaelzer> empty
[14:35] <ddstreet> yeah going fast today!
[14:36] <cpaelzer> the one incoming last week I have copleted
[14:36] <cpaelzer> doko: already admited to be aware but late on adsys
[14:36] <cpaelzer> #topic Incomplete bugs / questions
[14:36] <cpaelzer> #link https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/?field.searchtext=&orderby=-date_last_updated&field.status%3Alist=INCOMPLETE_WITH_RESPONSE&field.status%3Alist=INCOMPLETE_WITHOUT_RESPONSE&field.subscriber=ubuntu-mir
[14:36] <cpaelzer> nothing new here
[14:36] <cpaelzer> #topic Any other business?
[14:36] <cpaelzer> well, now ddstreet if you had the time to complete a new pastebin we could vote
[14:36] <didrocks> nothing for me
[14:37] <sarnold> nothing for me
[14:37] <cpaelzer> I have a pre-discussion to do - which is about the current process forces a bit of "the first being the victim"
[14:37] <ddstreet> cpaelzer ok https://pastebin.canonical.com/p/CZnNtWkGbK/
[14:38] <cpaelzer> that means that e.g. the first rust package that will have to go into main will have to own 95% of the package std-libs
[14:38] <ddstreet> crap that's canonical pastebin, lemme get an uubntu one
[14:38] <cpaelzer> ok let me continue on that after we've hadnled the paste of ddstreet
[14:38] <ddstreet> https://pastebin.ubuntu.com/p/tpyKDPT7r4/
[14:38] <cpaelzer> I like it
[14:38] <cpaelzer> I'd also extend the check template to consider that
[14:39] <ddstreet> yes
[14:39] <ddstreet> agreed
[14:39] <cpaelzer> I'm not formally asking for votes
[14:39] <cpaelzer> the time I need to check meetinology syntax will be wasted :-)
[14:39] <cpaelzer> +^ from me
[14:39] <cpaelzer> doko says yes as well
[14:39] <cpaelzer> ddstreet:  has suggested it
[14:39] <cpaelzer> sarnold:  / ddstreet - what about you ?
[14:39] <ddstreet> yes +1 from me
[14:39] <sarnold> sometimes autopkgtests are the thinnest of tests..
[14:40] <cpaelzer> yep
[14:40] <cpaelzer> sarnold: but on MIR review we look if they are Kindergarden and might reject it
[14:40] <cpaelzer> this is just about the excuse of "can't be done at biuld/autopkgtest because of special HW"
[14:40] <sarnold> .. while I've never seen anything remotely looking like .. lazyness? deviousness? from any of my colleagues, ever, I do slightly worry that a five-line autopkgtest might be enough to 'absolve' a team from helping to test something
[14:42] <sarnold> telling just how good a test suite is is pretty difficult to do, so I don't have any awesome answers, but maybe adding a "non-trivial" around line 5 or 6 would help me :)
[14:42] <cpaelzer> I think the proposal here makes the rules better
[14:42] <sarnold> "substantive"?
[14:42] <cpaelzer> added non-trivial
[14:42] <ddstreet> it's true, but sometimes even just a basic sanity check is better than nothing, e.g. for needrestart i required some test, but all that could be done at first was pretty basic https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/needrestart/+bug/1907422
[14:42] <cpaelzer> that is easy and reasonable
[14:43] <didrocks> I think people can understand non-trivial and agree on the term :)
[14:43] <cpaelzer> yes
[14:43] <cpaelzer> I'd be ok to hit save on the wiki
[14:43] <cpaelzer> we overall seem to be +1
[14:43] <sarnold> excellent, thanks
[14:43] <sarnold> +1 :D
[14:43] <cpaelzer> all requested amends are done
[14:44] <cpaelzer> thanks everyone
[14:44] <cpaelzer> let me quickly complete my former thought
[14:44] <ddstreet> thanks
[14:44] <cpaelzer> just to plant the seed not to exhaustively discuss it today
[14:44] <cpaelzer> that means that e.g. the first rust package that will have to go into main will have to own 95% of the package std-libs
[14:44] <cpaelzer> usually foundations would be toolchain/stdlib
[14:44] <cpaelzer> so I wonder (especially @doko) how we'd want to do that
[14:45] <cpaelzer> how was it with golang
[14:45] <cpaelzer> should I just talk with Matt
[14:45] <cpaelzer> are there other suggestions
[14:45] <cpaelzer> full-disclosure: I have a very trivial, but rust based package coming
[14:46] <cpaelzer> so I'm interested to NOT own too many rusty things not close to what I'm actually trying to use/support
[14:46] <cpaelzer> If there are immediate thought let me know, otherwise let this echo a bit
[14:46] <cpaelzer> and in next weeks actions  section we cna check what we think about it
[14:46] <didrocks> the issue with rust is that you still have a lot of breaking changes between releases, making other packages not building, correct? (my info on rust are now very rusty, like multiple years old :p)
[14:47] <sarnold> yeah, even though they've got the 'semver' idea of trying to clearly label breaking changes, that's only as good as the human updating the version number, and of course some folks just plain don't care to maintain older packages..
[14:48] <sarnold> I have the impression that they're better about it than the golang folks but perhaps not as good as highly-disciplined C projects
[14:49] <didrocks> well, on golang, you don’t have that problem with golang itself and the stdlib (basically since the V1 and compatibility promise), the issue is then more about other libraries that don’t use semver, and so, you "only" impact a small set of reverse deps
[14:49] <didrocks> but yeah, the first one who needs an update on one of those would pay the price of it as cpaelzer says
[14:50] <cpaelzer> right now the package is trivial and I'm trying to keep the rust move until after 22.04
[14:50] <sarnold> this README has some breadcrumbs on more painful rust crate version updates https://github.com/dtolnay/semver-trick
[14:50] <cpaelzer> but then upstream switched and as soon as there is a hard dep on the new things I've a problem
[14:50] <cpaelzer> thanks for the links and thoughts
[14:50] <sarnold> "During the most recent libcpocalypse, Servo found themselves coordinating an upgrade of 52 libraries over a period of three months"
[14:51] <cpaelzer> I'd still suggest that to some extend that is more case of "foundations gets half a head-count" instead of random-team-will-own rust
[14:51] <sarnold> as much as I like rust, I'm worried that some day the whole ecosystem is going to jam into one solid ball that can't be shifted
[14:51] <sarnold> cpaelzer: hah, I was thinking more "we need a dedicated golang team and a dedicated rust team"
[14:51] <cpaelzer> you are not making me feel better about is sarnold
[14:51] <cpaelzer> thanks for the pre-thoughts on this everyone
[14:52] <sarnold> alas I don't have a line item to spend :)
[14:52] <cpaelzer> I guess we can conclude for today
[14:52] <cpaelzer> thanks!
[14:52] <sarnold> thanks cpaelzer, all :)
[14:52]  * didrocks thought that sarnold was clearly committing… :)
[14:52] <didrocks> thanks everyone
[14:52] <cpaelzer> #endmeeting
[14:52] <meetingology> Meeting ended at 14:52:35 UTC.  Minutes at https://new.ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2021/ubuntu-meeting.2021-08-31-14.31.moin.txt
[14:52] <sarnold> \o/
[18:53] <sil2100-NA> o/
[18:55] <rbasak> o/
[18:57] <cyphermox> o/
[18:59] <sil2100-NA> ...can you hear me?
[18:59] <sil2100-NA> Im writing from my phone
[19:00] <rbasak> sil2100-NA: yes. Hello!
[19:00] <cyphermox> yup
[19:00] <cyphermox> #startmeeting Ubuntu Technical Board
[19:00] <meetingology> Meeting started at 19:00:41 UTC.  The chair is cyphermox.  Information about MeetBot at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
[19:00] <meetingology> Available commands: action, commands, idea, info, link, nick
[19:00] <rbasak> vorlon: coming?
[19:00] <cyphermox> #chair cyphermox rbasak
[19:00] <cyphermox> #topic Apologies
[19:00] <cyphermox> mdeslaur already sent his apologies on the mailing list.
[19:00] <meetingology> Current chairs: cyphermox, rbasak
[19:03] <cyphermox> no vorlon?
[19:04] <rbasak> I think three is enough for us to proceed
[19:04] <cyphermox> yeah, just giving people time
[19:04] <cyphermox> #topic Action review
[19:05] <cyphermox> #subtopic Wimpress To follow-up on-list with design review to address MATE Boutique security/consent concerns.
[19:05] <rbasak> I found https://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2021/05/28/%23ubuntu-desktop.html#t10:42
[19:05] <rbasak> That's the last discussion on the matter AFAIK.
[19:05] <cyphermox> that's good
[19:05] <cyphermox> well, it's carry in any case
[19:05] <rbasak> It sounds to me that the issue will be addressed, but there's no time frame for it.
[19:06] <cyphermox> you think we should drop?
[19:07] <rbasak> IMHO, these things need deadlines if we ever want them to happen.
[19:08] <cyphermox> well, sure, but we're departing from the MATE boutique concerns and more into whether some flavor will continue or not
[19:08] <rbasak> Which is difficult to impose on volunteers of course
[19:08] <cyphermox> yup yup
[19:09] <cyphermox> #subtopic formal ratification of third party seeded snap security policy, depends on:
[19:09] <cyphermox> #subtopic vorlon to circle around with store, snapcraft, et all, and revise the snap source revision policy to be more clear with regards to rebuildability and GPL compliance.
[19:09] <cyphermox> #subtopic vorlon to reply to seeded snap upload permissions question on list
[19:10] <cyphermox> carry, since vorlon isn't here.
[19:10] <cyphermox> #subtopic sil2100 to start a draft summarizing the OEM archive portion of the meeting which xnox and TB will review, edit, and ratify before we move on to figuring out the next step
[19:10] <cyphermox> sil2100-NA: not sure if you're getting everything on your phone; pinging you in case you didn't see ^, take your time
[19:11] <sil2100-NA> So, I have something, but not much - started on the wiki, will give a link later when I'm home ;)
[19:12] <cyphermox> alright :)
[19:12] <cyphermox> #subtopic rbasak to follow up regarding security-team's advice on the flatpak TB request
[19:12] <rbasak> I did the follow up. We haven't heard back from the security team (same status as last meeting)
[19:13] <cyphermox> yup ok
[19:13] <rbasak> How should we proceed?
[19:13] <sarnold> :(
[19:13] <cyphermox> perhaps replace that with an "harass security team" action?
[19:13] <sarnold> :)
[19:13] <cyphermox> hey sarnold
[19:14] <rbasak> If only there were a security team member on the TB who could liase :)
[19:14] <cyphermox> guess the harassing is already done and we can revisit this next meeting?
[19:14] <rbasak> Maybe give Marc an action even though he's not here?
[19:14] <cyphermox> sure
[19:15] <cyphermox> ACTION: mdeslaur to follow-up/respond for security team on advice for the flatpak TB request
[19:15] <cyphermox> does that seem about right?
[19:15] <rbasak> Maybe make it clear it's the policykit thing
[19:15] <rbasak> As opposed to the DisplayCAL thing
[19:15] <cyphermox> and I'm not sure why meetingology is so silent
[19:15] <cyphermox> ack
[19:15] <cyphermox> I will adjust in the agenda notes
[19:16] <rbasak> #action mdeslaur to follow-up/respond for security team on advice for the flatpak policykit TB request
[19:16] <meetingology> ACTION: mdeslaur to follow-up/respond for security team on advice for the flatpak policykit TB request
[19:16] <cyphermox> heh
[19:16] <cyphermox> thanks rbasak
[19:17] <cyphermox> and then, we have
[19:17] <cyphermox> #subtopic Work on getting a set of requirements for Ubuntu packages that enable third party software repositiories by default - related to a ML entry (work document here: https://pad.ubuntu.com/third-party-repository-requirements )
[19:17] <cyphermox> I have added my own notes to the doc, last week
[19:17] <rbasak> I hope everyone's done their homework? :)
[19:17] <rbasak> I don't see anything from vorlon or from mdeslaur
[19:18] <rbasak> Oh Marc has made a couple of comments
[19:19] <rbasak> I'm not sure that the person proposing a specific requirement has written a comment justifying it though.
[19:19] <rbasak> Which makes it difficult for me to decide if I agree or not.
[19:21] <cyphermox> yep
[19:21] <rbasak> I just added to each proposed requirements a place for names
[19:22] <cyphermox> names as in who proposed?
[19:22] <rbasak> Maybe it would help if everyone could state their position on each proposal
[19:22] <cyphermox> or should we vote for what we agree with
[19:22] <cyphermox> ah, yes
[19:22] <rbasak> Also if it's not black or white, please do explain because we can still adjust each proposal as needed.
[19:24] <cyphermox> yup
[19:25] <cyphermox> --> all TB members to "vote" or explain what they do not like of a proposal on https://pad.ubuntu.com/third-party-repository-requirements
[19:25] <cyphermox> sounds good?
[19:25] <rbasak> +1
[19:25] <cyphermox> #action all TB members to "vote" or explain what they do not like of a proposal on https://pad.ubuntu.com/third-party-repository-requirements
[19:25] <meetingology> ACTION: all TB members to "vote" or explain what they do not like of a proposal on https://pad.ubuntu.com/third-party-repository-requirements
[19:28] <cyphermox> #topic Other agenda items
[19:28] <cyphermox> there was only DisplayCAL / third party repos otherwise, which we've already "discussed"
[19:28] <cyphermox> #topic Pending mailing list items
[19:28] <cyphermox> As far as I could tell, nothing unaddressed in the ML.
[19:29] <cyphermox> #topic Community bugs
[19:29] <cyphermox> Zaroo bugs.
[19:29] <rbasak> I don't spot anything in ML eithe
[19:29] <rbasak> r
[19:29] <cyphermox> #topic Chair for next meeting
[19:29] <cyphermox> #agreed Next chair rbasak, backup would be vorlon.
[19:29] <meetingology> AGREED: Next chair rbasak, backup would be vorlon.
[19:29] <cyphermox> #subtopic AOB
[19:29] <cyphermox> Anything I missed?
[19:29] <rbasak> Nothing from me.
[19:29] <rbasak> Thank you for chairing!
[19:30] <cyphermox> #endmeeting
[19:30] <meetingology> Meeting ended at 19:30:04 UTC.  Minutes at https://new.ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2021/ubuntu-meeting.2021-08-31-19.00.moin.txt
[19:30] <cyphermox> thanks everyone!
[19:30] <sil2100-NA> Thanks o/