Bashing-omping diddledani00:08
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rbasakIs the plan to have the backporters meeting in here?15:58
rbasakAh yes - https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuBackports/Agenda said so15:59
ddstreetlet's give teward laney mapreri some time16:01
ddstreeti think they were planning to attend16:01
maprerisorry, I'm on a call16:01
tewardaround but running a bit delayed due to FT job IT issues16:02
teward(damn Exchanhe servers...)16:02
maprerigive me 1 min16:03
mapreriok, I'm here16:04
ddstreetok let's get this going then16:04
ddstreet#startmeeting Ubuntu Backporters meeting16:05
meetingologyMeeting started at 16:05:06 UTC.  The chair is ddstreet.  Information about MeetBot at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology16:05
mapreriwhat about laney ?16:05
meetingologyAvailable commands: action, commands, idea, info, link, nick16:05
ddstreeti did ping him above16:05
ddstreethe can catch up16:05
ddstreetso i created an agenda page, as rbasak linked above16:05
ddstreeti'll relink for the record16:05
ddstreet#link https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuBackports/Agenda16:06
ddstreethmm hope that worked16:06
mapreriit did, #link is silent :)16:06
rbasakI think it does stay silent for those.16:06
ddstreeti'm happy to chair/guide this first mtg, but anyone please feel free to jump in at any time for anything16:06
mapreriright behind you, thank you in advance for chairing16:07
ddstreeton the agenda page, i put in some basic info and links16:07
ddstreetthe main stuff i think is in the discussion topics section, unless anyone has objections i think we can get through the first couple items fairly quickly, even if we just create action items to discuss them more later16:08
ddstreeti think the bulk of the conversation will be around the process, at the end of the list16:08
mapreriyes, agreed16:08
ddstreetok so first off, membership16:08
ddstreet#topic membership16:08
ddstreetthe current list of members:16:09
ddstreet#link https://launchpad.net/~ubuntu-backporters/+members16:09
mapreriI think we need to decide on whether to drop all of the old people in them?16:09
ddstreetagreed, let's decide that first16:10
ddstreetrbasak i think is typing16:10
rbasakI was, but let's do that first.16:10
rbasakMy question was going to be about team leadership, which is in this section but can come last.16:10
mapreri(and deactivate the techboard, it doesn't need to be an active member, being owner is enough for them)16:10
rbasakdeactivate the techboard> +116:10
ddstreetyep agreed here as well16:10
rbasakI was going to JFDI before but I thought maybe better to wait for the meeting.16:11
ddstreetwell specifically, i think we should drop all the old members, and inactivate the TB16:11
rbasakAnyone object to dropping all the old members?16:11
ddstreetseems unanimous, which is good :)16:11
maprerivery in favour of the matter, however I need to notice that16:11
ddstreeti do wish laney was here though16:11
mapreriscottk renewed his membership on oct 6th, which is weird16:11
ddstreetas he's the only old member who participated so far16:11
mapreriscottk never said anything in the mail threads right?16:12
rbasakI wonder if he has a script that does that :)16:12
ddstreethmm maybe he just clicked on 'renew' without really thinking about it16:12
rbasakI had been unable to reach him.16:12
mapreriyeah, scottk has been quite unavailable as of late16:12
rbasakWhen I asked him to transfer ownership to ~techboard - before I asked Launchpad to do it.16:12
mapreri(as of late: last ~2 years, more or less)16:12
ddstreetwell since laney isn't around, i suggest we just reach consensus of who's here; i'm not sure if we even need an official vote, as i don't hear any objections from anyone16:13
rbasakI propose that we proceed by removing everyone not present here today. Others can always be re-added later.16:13
maprerirbasak: including laney?16:13
ddstreet+1 to that from me16:13
ddstreetit's trivial to add him back if he wants to be added back16:13
mapreri+1 as well16:14
rbasakmapreri: including laney because I think he specifically said in the ML thread that he wasn't able to participate in backport handling.16:14
mapreri(you can use #agreed instead of formal vote for these matters :P)16:14
ddstreetah nice thanks :)16:14
ddstreetok so16:14
rbasakShall I do those things now then, to allow you to continue typing?16:14
ddstreetsure thanks16:15
ddstreeti suppose for the record we should do an agreed16:15
mapreriplease yes16:15
ddstreet#agreed remove (inactivate) all old members who are not present in the current meeting16:15
meetingologyAGREED: remove (inactivate) all old members who are not present in the current meeting16:15
maprerithen, I think reject all pending members as well imho.  let's start clean?16:15
ddstreetyep i agree on that too16:16
ddstreetprobably most of them aren't interested anymore anyway16:16
ddstreetno objections?16:16
mapreriI wonder what that person who requested on 2006-09-09 to join would say if we approve now lol16:16
ddstreet"sorry for the delay!"16:16
rbasakThere are also a bunch of pending members, but none of them have been a participant in the ML thread. Should I clean those up too?16:16
maprerirbasak: we just agreed on that :P16:16
ddstreetyep i think we're agreed to reject all the pending members16:16
ddstreet#agreed reject all pending members16:17
meetingologyAGREED: reject all pending members16:17
maprerilast, keep the current "moderated" team, or turn it to "restricted"?16:17
ddstreetrbasak you might need to add yourself before disabling the TB16:17
mapreri(I think we this we are over the "administrative" topics)16:17
mapreriddstreet: not needed, since techboard stays the owner)16:17
ddstreetah ok16:17
ddstreetmapreri it shows as 'restricted' now for me, did it just get changed?16:18
mapreriah, it's already a "restricted" team now.  so probably those pending members were from before the change16:18
mapreriddstreet: not sure, didn't look at before.  just assumed it was "moderated" due to the pending members.16:19
rbasakddstreet: no we're good - team ownership gives me superpowers16:19
maprerihttps://launchpad.net/~ubuntu-backporters/+members is not super clean ♥16:19
rbasakAll agreed changes made I think16:19
ddstreetas far as moderated vs restricted, i don't have a preference; i suspect there won't be a mass of people applying even if it's moderated :)16:19
mapreriime, moderated just lead to spam request more than anything *shrugs*16:20
rbasakIMHO, allowing people to apply via Launchpad just confuses things.16:20
ddstreetyeah i'm fine to stay restricted16:20
rbasakNobody knows how to deal with that.16:20
mapreriinstead, with restricted team, obviously the way to join is "go badger the team admin!" :P16:20
ddstreetso for future membership, do we need to define a process now? i'm thinking not16:21
ddstreeti don't expect many (or any) people to want to join anytime soon16:21
rbasakI agree that can be deferred.16:21
mapreriI think that is quite related to the actual backport process, but regardless I think we can defer for now, yes.  also we need to see how things go.16:22
mapreriand, looking at how nobody was interested to join via mail, well…16:22
rbasakWhat I'd like though is clarity on team leadership. Who can make decisions for the team? Specifically I mean administrative decisions, rather than individual review decisions. Making this clear would make it easier for the wider community to engage with you.16:22
ddstreet#agreed defer discussion to define membership application process16:22
meetingologyAGREED: defer discussion to define membership application process16:22
ddstreetyes that's a good point16:22
rbasakI'm quite happy for that to just be ddstreet for now, FWIW.16:23
maprerisince I'm usually very easy to reach, I'd prefer on a process that is: somebody ask the team to decide something, ddstreet texts me, we discuss very quickly, ddstreet reports back?16:23
rbasakAs he's the only one volunteering to do the driving anyway, I feel that he should have the authority to make decisions around the responsibility that he's taking.16:23
mapreri(easy to reach, except for ubuntu-dev-tools reviews, sorry !)16:23
ddstreethaha lol16:23
rbasakI would expect ddstreet to work with mapreri of course, but I'd like to put ddstreet in the position that he has the authority to resolve a disagreement if there is one.16:24
mapreriI'd say I'd be happy to place him on such place, I have enough disagreements to handle elsewhere anyway, and I trust him to be fair from the little I saw in the past.16:25
ddstreethow about in between regular meetings, any administrative decisions can be handled by me, with an expectation (but not requirement) that i try to reach the rest of the team for opinions16:25
maprerihaving said this, I don't quite know what you might be referring to, rbasak.  what kind of situations are you imagining?16:25
rbasakmapreri: I want to avoid indecisiveness, which is IMHO part of what killed the old team.16:25
mapreriI don't think that could happen here anytime soon with this new 2-person team though.16:26
rbasakSo things like "no I want to keep the status quo but I'm not going to help with delivering the team responsibilities under that status quo"16:26
rbasakI don't want that to block the team.16:26
rbasakSure - hopefully that won't happen here.16:26
mapreriit's more likely that we just both dwindle down in motivation in a few years16:26
ddstreetok so are we agreed to allow me (or current team admin/lead) to handle any administrative decisions?16:27
mapreriso yes, let me agree to give ddstreet ALL THE POWER16:27
rbasakAnd no objections, so it's done :)16:27
maprerijust try to get consensus if it's feasible, please.16:27
rbasakOf course16:28
rbasakThe CoC mandates that16:28
ddstreetto be clear, i don't want to decide anything unilaterally, but i suspect 1) there won't really be a lot of stuff needed between meetings and 2) i'll talk to the team member(s) about everything when possible16:28
rbasakddstreet: that is exactly the position I'd like you to take, so we're good :)16:29
ddstreet#agreed team lead/admin can make administrative decisions for the team, preferably with consultation with other team members16:29
meetingologyAGREED: team lead/admin can make administrative decisions for the team, preferably with consultation with other team members16:29
rbasakAlso #agreed ddstreet will, for now, be the sole team lead/admin16:29
ddstreetyes i suppose we should define the members16:29
ddstreeti'm the team lead, and the members are mapreri teward and, rbasak are you joining?16:30
ddstreetand possibly laney, if he does want to stay on/rejoin16:30
rbasakFor now, I'm not joining, thanks. I'm just focused on trying to enable the people who _are_ volunteering.16:30
ddstreetok so just me mapreri and teward16:30
rbasakAnd at that point I intend to step away.16:31
mapreriyeah, I can do with being able to say "I'm not in a lead position in this team" \o/  (which is what happens way too often in debian when I join a team -.-)16:31
ddstreet#agreed current team lead will be ddstreet, current team members will be mapreri teward16:31
meetingologyAGREED: current team lead will be ddstreet, current team members will be mapreri teward16:31
rbasakWith the team revitalized and with a team lead defined, I think my job is done :-P16:31
tewardthis week's been chaotic so i mean :P16:31
* mapreri notices that teward has been quite silent so fare in the meeting?16:31
ddstreetand no objections to allowing laney to rejoin if he would like to (since we don't yet have a process to join defined)?16:32
mapreriassuming he reads the minutes from the following discussion about the process, and he asks explicitly, yes, let's let him join.16:32
mapreribut so, should ddstreet add teward to the lp team?16:33
ddstreet#agreed to allow laney to rejoin the team if he requests to16:33
meetingologyAGREED: to allow laney to rejoin the team if he requests to16:33
rbasakThis is the point where I've stepped away. IMHO in a not voting away, it'd be useful if members committed to do whatever is defined that they should do, and otherwise they shouldn't be members. So maybe it doesn't really matter who is a member or not, for the time being, until that is defined or needs to be defined (eg. ACLs, or review roles, etc).16:33
rbasakin a not voting *way*16:34
tewardmapreri: i've had nothing counter to any already stated items so far16:34
tewardalso still on via phone so insanely hard to type indepth replied16:34
mapreriah, that explains! (the phone)16:34
ddstreetmy only concern with teward is i know you're strected super thin, being on several boards and heavy workload16:34
tewardddstreet: workload is getting a lot lighter at FT job.  Many large projects just finished and there's one rrmaining project on my radar of high importance16:35
ddstreetbut personally i have no problem with you joining even if it's just for occasional work on the backports16:35
tewardand the being on many teams and boards is why i stopped championing the redo of backports process16:36
tewardhence "member of backporters" not leader/officer16:36
ddstreetsounds fine to me - i did put 'agreed' on the current team above, though if anyone wants to have a vote of the people currently here i'm fine with that as well16:37
ddstreetotherwise i think we can let the new member list stand and continue16:37
ddstreetok let's move to the meetings16:38
ddstreet#topic meeting schedule and location16:38
mapreriI'm also fine we teward.  let's just say, please all of us be sincere and drop out if you realize you can't contribute :)16:38
mapreris/fine we/fine with/ (?)16:38
ddstreetyes very much agreed with that ^16:38
tewardwhat mapreri said16:38
maprerido we need regular meetings?16:39
ddstreetso for meetings, i assume we just hold them here?16:39
ddstreetlong term, probably not, but i think at first it might be good to have some regular meetings16:39
ddstreetat least until we get going more smoothly16:39
mapreri(do we have a more in-topic irc channel?)16:40
rbasakWould it be worthwhile agreeing a rule that members inactive for (say) 2 years get removed? I suggest this now because it's socially easier to set this now, rather than when the problem arises again.16:40
tewardwe can probably get one made mapreri if needed16:40
ddstreetyeah we probably should have a irc channel16:40
mapreriteward: I'd ♥ to pls.  let's #ubuntu-backports @ libera?16:40
rbasakI suggest just using #ubuntu-devel until it becomes a problem.16:40
rbasakThat helps with fostering involvement IMHO.16:41
tewardrbasak: agreed to the rule provided theres procedure in place to handle if the lead is the AWOL one16:41
mapreriI'm fine as well.16:41
ddstreetrbasak i do agree with the expiration rule, but suggest we defer the specific details to a future meeting16:41
teward^^ that16:41
mapreriteward: procedure is: existing members vote and ask techboard to replace the lead.  easy.16:42
mapreriI think this can be part of the next meeting together with the definition of how to join16:42
ddstreet#action define details on handling members/leads who are no longer participating16:43
meetingologyACTION: define details on handling members/leads who are no longer participating16:43
ddstreeti think i forgot to add an action for defining the membership process?16:43
ddstreet#action define process/procedure for adding new members16:44
meetingologyACTION: define process/procedure for adding new members16:44
ddstreetso re: irc, should we use ubuntu-devel or try to get ubuntu-backports?16:45
maprerilet's keep with -devel for a while and see if we tend to have too many conversations (unlikely)16:45
tewardwe could use either, but lets keep with -devel for now16:45
tewardunless we have a ton of things to discuss we should be OK with -devel16:45
teward(finally back at my computer, geez...)16:46
* mapreri is just biased in collecting as many channels as possible (not visible in me anymore since the freenode move when I cleaned up the list…)16:46
ddstreet#agreed use #ubuntu-devel for normal team conversation16:46
meetingologyAGREED: use #ubuntu-devel for normal team conversation16:46
ddstreetat least for now, can always change that later16:46
ddstreetfor a schedule of regular meetings, i think at first we should probably try for fortnightly meetings? weekly meetings probably would be too much, but i think we do have stuff to go thru16:47
ddstreeti'm trying to get thru the administrative stuff, since we're not even at the real backports process yet and 45 minutes in :)16:48
mapreriftr, I already have other fortnight meetings in the other cycle16:49
mapreriat the same time :P16:49
ddstreetwell this balances it out perfectly then doesn't it xD16:49
mapreriso I'm good with fortnight, it'll just means I'll find myself a weekly cycle, one week in a channel, the other in another channel :316:49
ddstreetlet's start with fortnightly and re-evaluate it each following meeting, i'm sure we will get to the point where we can drop it down to monthly, or less16:50
ddstreeti'll schedule the next meeting in 2 weeks (after this one is over)16:50
tewardddstreet: send me an email reminder btw so i can add it in my schedule16:51
ddstreet#action schedule next meeting in 2 weeks, same location and time UTC16:51
meetingologyACTION: schedule next meeting in 2 weeks, same location and time UTC16:51
mapreriteward: are you in ubuntu-backports@luc right?  I guess ddstreet can call the meeting there.16:51
tewardmy recurrings for the stuff got thrown into the abyss during the work migration to MS365 so i don't have my recurring meetings anymore16:51
tewardmapreri: probably not :p16:51
mapreriyou should if you are joining :P16:51
ddstreetteward mapreri i'll create a google calendar event and include you both, if oyu use google calendar?16:51
tewardno idea who's on that list anymore16:51
ddstreetwell i mean you should get the invite even if you don't :)16:51
tewardmapreri: true, i'll drop in.16:51
mapreriddstreet: I use gcal yes  (and all my emails are associated to the google account, so it'll just come in whatever address you use)16:52
rbasakFWIW I think we've (you've) made great progress so far, and if it takes another couple of weeks to sort out the process stuff, that's absolutely fine.16:52
rbasakI think it's important to get the "constitutional" structure right, and that's done now, and I'm happy :)16:53
rbasakI hope that this means that the previous problem won't recur.16:53
ddstreetso re: ubuntu-backports@luc, i just joined that (or requested to)...not sure if we need to do something to manage that list?16:54
maprerifor the ml mod, if that's needed, I'm happy to, since I already run `listadmin` regularly for another dozen MLs16:54
rbasakFWIW, I moderate enough Ubuntu MLs already that adding another won't make any difference to me. So if you'd like a moderator I'm happy to do that.16:54
rbasakAh, snap :)16:54
mapreriwho is jdong again u.u16:54
ddstreeti'll add an action to at least check if we need to take that list over16:54
ddstreetyeah i saw that too, no idea16:55
ddstreet#action take over ubuntu-backports@luc mailing list, or at least check if we need to manage it16:55
meetingologyACTION: take over ubuntu-backports@luc mailing list, or at least check if we need to manage it16:55
maprerisomebody who has been inactive long enough that all of their launchpad membership expired, apparently.16:55
rbasakhttps://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-backports lists an old member16:55
rbasakSo I think you will need to take that over16:55
maprerirbasak: do you have contacts with the lists.u.c admins?16:56
maprerior is that canonical IS generically?16:56
rbasakCanonical IS can swap it for us.16:56
mapreriif you'd like I can write a ticket16:56
rbasakI expect ddstreet will be able to arrange it, but you have my TB hat support if you need it.16:56
maprerior let ddstreet ask for it, as you wish.16:56
ddstreetmapreri if you are able to request the change then please do :)16:57
ddstreet#action mapreri request ownership change for ubuntu-backports@luc16:57
meetingologyACTION: mapreri request ownership change for ubuntu-backports@luc16:57
mapreri(shall I ask them to just put my email in the list owner field?)16:58
mapreri(more like, do you mind or should we do it differently?)16:58
ddstreetok so i *think* we are all thru the administrative part...there's only 3 minutes left in the hour though, i'm thinking we move the 'real' discussion of the process to the next meeting? 1 hour meetings are usually my max16:58
ddstreetre: ml, i think it's fine to just put your email16:58
mapreriI think I should have dinner in 30-60 minutes, so I'm fine going for a little longer.  but process is likely going to take more than that anyway, so…16:59
ddstreetyeah, we could start but i dont think we would make it far16:59
ddstreeti propose we adjourn this meeting and defer remaining discussion to the next one?17:00
ddstreeti know we didn't really get the to good stuff yet17:00
ddstreetbut meetings tend to start falling apart after an hour-ish i think :)17:00
mapreriincidentally, I was thinking of dumping my points of what the process should look like (or, what we need to discuss of them) in the agenda page, would you mind?  I suppose you could dump your ideas as well.17:01
ddstreetok sounds like no objections at least17:01
ddstreetabsolutely, please feel free to put it into the agenda, update it however you'd like17:01
maprerithen we are good17:02
mapreri[08 07:00:04 PM] <mapreri> ack.17:02
mapreriI saw this fell out due to a network glitch on my side ↑17:02
mapreri(I recovered your messages from my bouncer)17:02
ddstreeti was also going to edit the agenda page with summary of today's meeting, and next mtg date, etc, but i'll make sure not to step on your edits17:02
maprerinot going to do that now17:02
mapreriif you give me a whole 2 weeks to prepare for the next meeting, be sure I won't write 2 weeks in advance :P17:03
ddstreetack, i'll try to have the page updated by my EOD17:03
ddstreetyeah no need to hurry :)17:03
rbasakI need to run now too. Thank you ddstreet both for chairing but more importantly driving this whole revitalisation!17:03
ddstreetok let's call this then, thanks for a great first mtg all!17:03
meetingologyMeeting ended at 17:04:02 UTC.  Minutes at https://new.ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2021/ubuntu-meeting.2021-09-08-16.05.moin.txt17:04
ddstreetthanks rbasak mapreri teward, see you next meeting!17:04
mapreriddstreet: btw, if you need to contact me very quickly, usually (not always) writing me on telegram works best.  you find me there under the @mattia username :)17:04
maprerirbasak: thanks for overseeing the transition! :)17:04
tewardty all17:04
ddstreetmapreri ok thanks good to know17:04
mapreriddstreet: for your tracking purposes, RT#36831 is the ticket for the ML takeover.17:10
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