[15:26] <wrsuser> m4t, except the server ISO's are now only the live server (also subiquity) and install crap like cloud-init
[15:26] <m4t> hmm i thought there is a minimal server
[15:26] <wrsuser> not any more
[15:27] <wrsuser> there was legacy server, alternate install and mini.iso - all either now unsupported, not built any more, or considered legacy
[15:27] <m4t> maybe it's this https://ubuntu.com/download/alternative-downloads
[15:27] <wrsuser> it's live server ISO or nothing now
[15:27] <m4t> eh
[15:27] <m4t> yeah damn
[15:27] <m4t> i think last full install i did was 18.04
[15:29] <wrsuser> tbh I'd love it if the Ubuntu MATE team could share the full instructions of how they put together the ISO CD (and the image that it deploys), maybe Wimpy has that?
[15:29] <wrsuser> so that I could make a new distro... Ubuntu Nothing
[15:29] <wrsuser> you get... literally nothing, but the base system :)
[15:29] <m4t> https://discourse.ubuntu.com/t/netbooting-the-live-server-installer/14510
[15:29] <m4t> sad
[15:30] <wrsuser> yeah I've read all that
[15:30] <m4t> you have to download the entire iso to ram now? haha
[15:30] <wrsuser> yeah it's really stupid
[15:30] <m4t> anyways sorry for misleading
[15:51] <alkisg> wrsuser: the flavors provide "seed" files and the isos are built on launchpad, not in local pcs: https://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-archive/seeds/ubuntu-mate.focal/desktop
[15:53] <alkisg> I haven't seen the recent ubuntu-server evolutions; but I guess `debootstrap + apt install ubuntu-minimal` should still be there :D
[15:53] <wrsuser> alkisg, so using that same file could I edit out something (e.g. evolution) and re-send it to launchpad and get an ISO without that included?
[15:54] <alkisg> wrsuser: no, that process is reserved for flavors afaik
[15:54] <alkisg> The software for that though should be open source, maybe livecd-builder or something
[15:54] <wrsuser> alkisg, sure but debootstrap is a massive pain getting something else to boot live in the meantime... then setting up things like network connections manually, hostnames, other random things like detecting if firmware is needed, intel microcode, etc...
[15:54] <alkisg> I've seen it years ago, I don't even remember the name anymore
[15:55] <alkisg> You mean preseeding? I guess you could run debian-installer from a minimal live system, and netbooting isn't really hard
[15:55] <alkisg> Maybe you could also use ansible if you don't want cloud-init
[15:55]  * alkisg is netbooting all the clients from the same image, always, so has no need for separate configurations :D
[15:56] <wrsuser> this isn't for servers
[15:56] <wrsuser> (as I'd use Debian for that anyway... and they have the netinst ISO which is great :P)
[15:56] <alkisg> You want a desktop environment?
[15:56] <wrsuser> this is about needing a minimal ubuntu install to build up one-off desktops from
[15:56] <wrsuser> and ubuntu-live-server ISO as a base... is poop
[15:57] <alkisg> Last time I started from ubuntu-server.iso I installed network-manager, uninstalled netplan... and spent 3 hours to find out that I need to reinstall netplan to get network-manager working :D
[15:57] <wrsuser> EXACTLY!
[15:58] <wrsuser> I forgot about netplan
[15:58] <alkisg> Indeed new trends come with shortcomings
[15:58] <wrsuser> mini.iso / legacy-server/ alternate-installer ... all 3 are now either no longer built or otherwise discontinued or considered legacy either for 20.04 or future versions
[15:58] <wrsuser> so that's why I'd love to make a new Ubuntu flavour... Ubuntu Nothing
[15:58] <alkisg> Devuan is "debian without systemd"... I guess we'd want an "ubuntu with only packages that also exist on debian" :P
[15:59] <wrsuser> even if 'Ubuntu Nothing' used subiquity-crap... at least you'd get NOTHING :P
[15:59] <wrsuser> yeah! I want a Ubuntu ISO install CD that just gives me the base packages I get with a Debian netinst
[15:59] <wrsuser> and that certainly excludes snapd :P
[16:00] <alkisg> Unfortunately, when the new packages get integrated too much, you wouldn't even be able to create such an .iso due to dependencies
[16:00] <alkisg> And I suspect they force flavors to add snapd, in order to promote it
[16:00] <alkisg> All the flavors have it preinstalled, even if it has zero or a couple of snap packages only
[16:00] <wrsuser> well surely snapd is inside the image that subiquity copies over right?   what generates that image?  a debootstrap process?
[16:01] <wrsuser> because if so ... just don't install snapd :P
[16:01] <alkisg> You could certainly do that, but you'd have to spend a lot of time maintaining it, and I doubt it would ever be accepted as an official flavor
[16:01] <wrsuser> I'd relish in Canonical's hatred of it :)
[16:02] <alkisg> You can do it with many many ways. But I don't think an official flavor is allowed to remove snap
[16:02] <alkisg> It's not a technical issue, it's a political issue
[16:03] <wrsuser> that's fine - I like the idea of it being an outlaw :P
[16:04] <alkisg> gnome vs unity, upstart vs systemd etc etc; now it's the war of flatpak vs snap vs appimage etc, companies do need to push their products
[16:04] <wrsuser> if anyone would like to furnish me with the exact details of how current official flavour ISO's are made (so that in future, it's easy to keep up)... I'm just seeking to have one that installs LESS... much less :)
[16:04] <wrsuser> (and I mean step by step if possible :P)
[16:08] <alkisg> I think that if you try to create it with the "official method", then you'll also end up patching the build code itself
[16:08] <alkisg> It should be much easier to unpack an iso, remove what you don't want, then repack it
[16:09] <wrsuser> that still means either making a new image or manipulating the existing one
[16:09] <wrsuser> preferably the former as I hate removing things after they're already installed
[16:09] <wrsuser> i'm paranoid they leave stuff behind