[18:54] <ddstreet> o/
[18:58] <rbasak> o/
[18:58] <fheimes> hello  o/
[18:59] <rbasak> Unfortunately I have hard stop/clash today at 1945Z. So I've spent more time in advance than usual today.
[19:00] <rbasak> And I have questions ready to go.
[19:00] <ddstreet> it looks like sil2100 isn't able to make it today, i think only other who might attend is teward
[19:00] <ddstreet> and maybe rafaeldtinoco
[19:01] <ddstreet> on the agenda sil2100 is up for chairing, but as he's not here i can chair
[19:01] <rbasak> Thanks!
[19:01] <ddstreet> let's give just 1-2 more minutes to see if teward arrives
[19:03] <ddstreet> ok let's proceed, we'll almost certainly have to continue the voting in email and/or at later mtgs, but we can at least ask questions now
[19:03] <ddstreet> #startmeeting Ubuntu Developer Membership Board
[19:03] <meetingology> Meeting started at 19:03:10 UTC.  The chair is ddstreet.  Information about MeetBot at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
[19:03] <meetingology> Available commands: action, commands, idea, info, link, nick
[19:03] <ddstreet> no preivous action items in the agenda
[19:03] <ddstreet> going down the list, first topic is MOTU application
[19:03] <ddstreet> #topic Ubuntu MOTU Developer application
[19:04] <ddstreet> fheimes hello! can you introduce yourself?
[19:04] <fheimes> hi, yes sure:
[19:04] <ddstreet> #link https://wiki.ubuntu.com/FrankHeimes/MOTU
[19:04] <fheimes> I'm Frank (Heimes), living in Germany, joined Canonical in '16 and I'm working in the SCE 'Server Commercial Engineering' (former 'hardware enablement' (former 'hyperscale')) team.
[19:04] <teward> o/
[19:04] <fheimes> The areas and topics I'm working on are mainly s390x (IBM Z) and ppc64el (IBM Power) projects.
[19:05] <fheimes> There is quite some coordination work needed, but I want to stay in touch with technology and want to do development work, too.
[19:05] <fheimes> Hence meanwhile I'm doing almost all the kernel SRU and Patch work in these projects, and try cover a bit more work in the packaging area, too.
[19:05] <fheimes> I think looking at universe packages is a good start and I worked on several universe packages (but also on some from main - see MOTU-appl. wiki page) - I guess about half of them are s390x specific.
[19:05] <fheimes> That's the reason I'm applying for the MOTU mebership (contributing developer) application - to be able to do more on the universe ones, w/o having to annoy others too much.
[19:06] <fheimes> What else to say ... I also contributed a bit to the (old) installation-guide, the current Ubuntu Server guide and discourse and to the ubuntu-maintainers-handbook, again esp. in the area of installation.
[19:07] <ddstreet> thanks! rbasak or teward go ahead with any q, i'm still reading the application
[19:07] <fheimes> Well, I do not have a big Debian (distro) background, but I did some (internal) 'rough' Debian packaging in my previous job and maintained a few packages there. But I still had to learn (and still need to learn) more about Debian packaging and the Ubuntu processes (like SRU, versioning, transitions, etc.) on top.
[19:07] <rbasak> fheimes: looks like you've got a great track record in getting bugfixes landed in Ubuntu. Thank you for your work!
[19:07] <rbasak> fheimes: but have you done any package merge work in Ubuntu that demonstrates that you know how to do one correctly?
[19:08] <fheimes> I recently worked on a version bump of openssl-ibmca, that got just today reviewed and uploaded by schopin
[19:09] <fheimes> as well as for the (very specific) python3-zhmcclient package
[19:09] <pleia2> I didn't know fheimes was coming in for his developer membership (I just have an s390x highlight, haha!), but I work with him a lot these days on Ubuntu w/ s390x stuff and he's always fantastic to collaborate with, including most recently with some new folks working on the Debian s390x port
[19:09] <fheimes> I haven't done much LP PR merge work yet  ...
[19:09] <rbasak> https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/python3%2Dzhmcclient 404s?
[19:10] <rbasak> No I mean a package merge - doesn't matter about the workflow. Something that catches up with Debian changes when an Ubuntu delta exists.
[19:10] <teward> rbasak: src:zhmcclient
[19:11] <rbasak> Thanks
[19:11] <fheimes> https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/zhmcclient
[19:11] <rbasak> Yeah neither of those are merges :-/
[19:11] <teward> rbasak: src:zhmcclient
[19:11] <teward> blah laggg
[19:11] <fheimes> not merges in the sense of sync from debian, no
[19:13] <teward> fheimes: when rbasak and I speak of merges we mean merging newer Debian versions into the Ubuntu delta'd versions of a package and then handling the inclusion of the Ubuntu delta - i.e. an actual merge from Debian into Ubuntu
[19:13] <teward> not a straight sync either.  for clarification
[19:13] <rbasak> fheimes: looks like you have a current outstanding responsibility wrt. your previous sponsored upload of tigervnc. Could you explain what it is, please, and what you need to do?
[19:13] <fheimes> yes - the packages I work on in Ubuntu are often more up to date than the Debian ones
[19:13] <fheimes> but I try to get them back on a similar level
[19:14] <fheimes> yes - I picked a patch from upstream that fixed a certain issue and patched/modified the Ubuntu tigervnc package
[19:14] <fheimes> but that fix is not in Debian, hence I reached out to the Debian maintainer and suggested to get that also into Debian
[19:15] <fheimes> I didn't got a response so far
[19:15] <rbasak> Let's say you never get a response and don't expect to get one. What's the next required step that you must take in Ubuntu?
[19:15] <fheimes> but if the patch will not land in Debian
[19:15] <fheimes> it will be part of the next upstream tigervns version
[19:15] <fheimes> and if that finally lands in Ubuntu, the patch that I incl. can be dropped again
[19:16] <fheimes> I think I should discuss this with one of the Ubuntu fellows that is also a Debian mantainer
[19:17] <fheimes> since I'm not a Debian maintainer I can't upload it myself
[19:18] <fheimes> not sure if that is a perfect or exhausting answer though ...
[19:19] <rbasak> It's good that you'd ask for help.
[19:20] <fheimes> in case of my work on qtwebkit-opensource-src is worked surprisingly nice
[19:20] <fheimes> the Debian maintainer is also an Ubuntu maintainer and was obvisouly subscribed to all qtwebkit-opensource-src bugs
[19:20] <fheimes> hence he contacted me before I was ready and applied to to Debian right away (and sponsored my Ubunt upload afterwards )
[19:20] <rbasak> But I'm not sure you really understand the workflow here, so I think I'd prefer for you to continue uploading under the supervision/mentorship of someone who understands the process already.
[19:20] <rbasak> Let's move on from my questions - thanks.
[19:21] <fheimes> well, I think a learned about a lot processes and workflows, but probably not all in detail ...
[19:22] <teward> no questions here from me that rbasak hasnt brought up
[19:23] <fheimes> in add. I could have opened a Debian bug and have attached it to the LP bug (in case you wanted to hear that ...)
[19:23] <ddstreet> fheimes i dont have any technical q, as rbasak covered quite a lot, my question is just if motu is the most beneficial acl for you? from your upload list, it seems to be about 1/2 main, 1/2 universe
[19:23] <fheimes> s/attached/referenced
[19:24] <fheimes> well, I saw the MOTU application as a kind of a first step ...
[19:24] <ddstreet> ok yeah, that is what it seemed liek
[19:24] <ddstreet> it's possible that a PPU list of packages you commonly work with might be better, but it depends on what your future plans are, if you plan to apply later for coredev then motu definitely makes more sense
[19:25] <ddstreet> for me, the bar to get PPU is somewhat lower than motu, even if some of the packages are in main
[19:25] <fheimes> I thought about PPU as well (like also mentioned by slyon) - but didn't wanted to ask for both at the same time
[19:26] <ddstreet> that's fine, we have sometimes allowed that and we just vote on the highest acl we think is ok
[19:26] <ddstreet> but for PPU it would require a predefined list of packages
[19:26] <rbasak> I don't think MOTU should be treated as a ramp to core dev. MOTU upload requires most of the same skills and understanding, missing only a few bits (eg. component mismatches) and my bar for both is thus approximately the same. Just because it's not in main and supported by Canoncial doesn't mean that it's less important and lower quality uploads are acceptable.
[19:27] <rbasak> I'd be OK for PPU for packages that aren't expected to be in Debian ever.
[19:27] <rbasak> For packages that are, I think it's important to demonstrate understanding of the package merge workflow.
[19:28] <rbasak> Because you can't keep adding Ubuntu delta without knowing how to clean it up!
[19:28] <fheimes> yeah - s390-tools would be an obvious choice ....
[19:28] <fheimes> well, one never know what will ever land in Debian ...   ;-)
[19:29] <ddstreet> i'm ready to vote, teward rbasak any further q or should we proceed?
[19:29] <rbasak> I'm ready.
[19:29] <fheimes> well, I mentioned some ways to clean this up again, but okay ...
[19:29] <ddstreet> #vote Frank Heimes application for MOTU
[19:29] <meetingology> Please vote on: Frank Heimes application for MOTU
[19:29] <meetingology> Public votes can be registered by saying +1, -1 or +0 in channel (for private voting, private message me with 'vote +1|-1|+0 #channelname')
[19:29] <teward> robie's point still stands regardless - if you add to a delta and then dont know how to clean up and do the merge from Debian if Debian has newer its a critical workflow process thats missing there.
[19:29] <rbasak> -1 I think it's essential that a MOTU understands package merge workflow
[19:29] <rbasak> It's important to do merges stop universe becoming an unmaintainable mess. To receive +1 I'd have expected you to: 1) Have some sponsored package merges included in your MOTU application, with minimal required corrections from sponsors; 2) understand your responsibility to merge tigervnc since that's currently outstanding; and 3) be able to describe what a package merge is, rather than appear
[19:29] <meetingology> -1 I think it's essential that a MOTU understands package merge workflow received from rbasak
[19:30] <rbasak> oblivious of this process.
[19:30] <teward> -1 MOTUs require knowledge of the merge workflows as well as other processes.  This alone is a critical requirement.
[19:30] <meetingology> -1 MOTUs require knowledge of the merge workflows as well as other processes.  This alone is a critical requirement. received from teward
[19:31] <teward> see rbasak's statements as well which echo mine.  (i'm on my phone or i'd write a larger dump of pretty much similar statements here)
[19:33] <ddstreet> +0 I think your technical skill does appear to be good, but I also do agree on the point that MOTU should be aware of processes like merges; additionally the MOTU acl doesn't seem like the best fit for past work; if you only want PPU, I'd suggest getting some more uploads for a core set of packages; if you do want MOTU, I think you should get more uploads over a broad set of universe packages, including merges
[19:33] <meetingology> +0 I think your technical skill does appear to be good, but I also do agree on the point that MOTU should be aware of processes like merges; additionally the MOTU acl doesn't seem like the best fit for past work; if you only want PPU, I'd suggest getting some more uploads for a core set of packages; if you do want MOTU, I think you should get more uploads over a broad set of universe packages, including merges received from ddstreet
[19:33] <ddstreet> #endvote
[19:33] <meetingology> Voting ended on: Frank Heimes application for MOTU
[19:33] <meetingology> Votes for: 0, Votes against: 2, Abstentions: 1
[19:33] <meetingology> Motion denied
[19:34] <rbasak> fheimes: the good news is: you have an outstanding merge to do! Get some help from mentors on merging tightvnc and you'll have at least 1 unit of experience ready for your reapplication, which I hope to see soon!
[19:34] <ddstreet> indeed, with some more work i think a reapplication would be welcome
[19:34] <rbasak> And I hope that having done that you'll understand what we mean.
[19:35] <rbasak> He did also apply for Contributing Developer.
[19:35] <ddstreet> oh! ok i missed that
[19:35] <ddstreet> fheimes would you like us to vote on contributing developer?
[19:35] <fheimes> merging back tigervnc was and is still on my list, yes
[19:35] <fheimes> thanks anyway ...
[19:36] <fheimes> well, if possible, yes
[19:36] <ddstreet> sure, is that ok with you rbasak teward?
[19:36] <ddstreet> to vote for contrib devel
[19:36] <rbasak> Yes please
[19:36] <ddstreet> #vote Frank Heimes application for Ubuntu Contributing Developer
[19:36] <meetingology> Please vote on: Frank Heimes application for Ubuntu Contributing Developer
[19:36] <meetingology> Public votes can be registered by saying +1, -1 or +0 in channel (for private voting, private message me with 'vote +1|-1|+0 #channelname')
[19:37] <rbasak> +1
[19:37] <meetingology> +1 received from rbasak
[19:37] <teward> +1 for Ubuntu Contributing Developer
[19:37] <meetingology> +1 for Ubuntu Contributing Developer received from teward
[19:37] <rbasak> Lots of valuable contributions on your application page. Thank you for your work!
[19:37] <ddstreet> +1 definitely sustained and broad work technically and non-technically, well deserved
[19:37] <meetingology> +1 definitely sustained and broad work technically and non-technically, well deserved received from ddstreet
[19:37] <ddstreet> #endvote
[19:37] <meetingology> Voting ended on: Frank Heimes application for Ubuntu Contributing Developer
[19:37] <meetingology> Votes for: 3, Votes against: 0, Abstentions: 0
[19:37] <meetingology> Motion carried
[19:38] <rbasak> I need to run now. Thanks all!
[19:38] <fheimes> many thx
[19:38] <ddstreet> thanks rbasak! o/
[19:38] <teward> and I need another coffee run, or i'll crash hard.  o/
[19:38] <ddstreet> technically, we need 4 +1 on any vote, but I'm certain we can get one more +1 for your contributing devel application
[19:38] <ddstreet> thanks teward! o/
[19:39] <ddstreet> so fheimes I'll take the vote to the ML to see if we can get one more DMB vote on it; if not, we can pass it next DMB meeting.
[19:39] <ddstreet> and definitely think about reapplying when you feel you're ready
[19:39] <ddstreet> #action ddstreet take vote to ML for Frank Heimes application for Ubuntu Contributing Developer
[19:39] <meetingology> ACTION: ddstreet take vote to ML for Frank Heimes application for Ubuntu Contributing Developer
[19:40] <fheimes> yepp, will keep that in mind
[19:40] <ddstreet> well we've lost all our DMB members now except me, so I guess I'll defer the AOB section until next meeting.
[19:41] <teward> *returns with glorious elixir*
[19:41] <teward> is there anything in AOB tho?  :P
[19:41] <ddstreet> teward ah well that was a fast coffee! :)
[19:41] <teward> ddstreet: 30 ft. away is the Keurig :p
[19:41] <ddstreet> since you're here let's go thru it
[19:41] <ddstreet> #topic AOB
[19:42] <ddstreet> #subtopic Should we check candidate signing of Ubuntu Code of Conduct?
[19:42] <teward>  subtopic send teward unlimited coffee funds
[19:42] <ddstreet> i added this one; i dont remember where i was discussing it, but i realized we don't actually check this as part of the application process
[19:42] <ddstreet> we probably should though?
[19:42] <teward> ddstreet: my strong opinoin: yes.  it needs to be done
[19:43] <teward> any contributions are governed by CoC, we brought this up during the chaos that involved CC involvement in certain people with rights (upload or otherwise) doing lots of CoC violations
[19:43] <teward> resulting in hardcore booting from contributing in future
[19:43] <teward> so we started to say membership routes need to validate that CoC is going to be abided by
[19:43] <teward> whether we verify that the person has signed CoC on launchpad or we validate they agree to abide by it
[19:43] <ddstreet> ok let's put an action item to add this to the docs, and we shoudl probably have some way to remind ourselves to check it each application too
[19:44] <teward> at least, that's what we pushed to the Membership Boards anyways
[19:44] <teward> yep
[19:44] <ddstreet> you want to take the action? or i can
[19:44] <ddstreet> since it's just me any you :)
[19:44] <teward> you just volunteered :p
[19:44] <ddstreet> or i could add it 'unassigned' ;-)
[19:44] <ddstreet> lol
[19:44] <ddstreet> yeah guess i did
[19:45] <ddstreet> #action ddstreet update application docs and possibly DMB checklist, to make sure candidates have signed CoC before applying and before DMB approves
[19:45] <meetingology> ACTION: ddstreet update application docs and possibly DMB checklist, to make sure candidates have signed CoC before applying and before DMB approves
[19:45] <ddstreet> ok last AOB for this week
[19:45] <ddstreet> #subtopic Following up to this email from teward, should we update the application process wiki page to clarify the (possible) need to first apply to the ubuntu-wiki-editors team
[19:46] <teward> ddstreet: i think that needs to be globally made known across all the boards and all the application processes
[19:46] <ddstreet> so...i wasn't aware that most people can't create their own wiki page to use as an application page
[19:46] <teward> not just DMB level membership stuff
[19:46] <teward> yeah i knew about it but I kinda forgot since i've had edit privs since $Ever
[19:46] <teward> :P
[19:46] <ddstreet> yeah definitely - it should be clarified in all application processes
[19:46] <ddstreet> lol
[19:46] <ddstreet> you want to take this action item then? ;-P
[19:46] <teward> agreed.  i'll forward that on to the standard membership boards as well with my CC hat on, but yes, we should probably make a note that it'll need to be done in the wiki pages.
[19:47] <teward> ddstreet: all the pages are becoming blurs, but yes.
[19:47] <teward> i'll take that one
[19:47] <ddstreet> lol, awesome thanks!
[19:47] <ddstreet> #action teward follow up to get all application process wiki/docs to explain the process to be able to edit wiki pages, for applicants who don't yet have wiki edit access
[19:47] <meetingology> ACTION: teward follow up to get all application process wiki/docs to explain the process to be able to edit wiki pages, for applicants who don't yet have wiki edit access
[19:47] <ddstreet> ok that's all the AOB
[19:48] <ddstreet> teward any final items from you?
[19:48] <teward> no there's one we haven't addressed.  send teward coffee.  :P  </joke>
[19:48] <ddstreet> lol
[19:48] <teward> (it's well known i'm a coffee addict so occasionally I joke to keep things light :P)
[19:48] <ddstreet> that's an ongoing one ;-)
[19:48] <teward> alls good
[19:48] <ddstreet> ok let's wrap then, 10 minutes early
[19:48] <sarnold> I'm afraid it's not a joke.. ;)
[19:48] <ddstreet> #endmeeting
[19:48] <meetingology> Meeting ended at 19:48:48 UTC.  Minutes at https://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2022/ubuntu-meeting.2022-01-24-19.03.moin.txt
[19:48]  * sarnold runs
[19:48] <ddstreet> lol
[19:49] <teward> sarnold: lol
[19:51] <fheimes> bye all   o/