[09:13] -queuebot:#kubuntu-devel- Builds: Kubuntu Desktop amd64 [Focal 20.04.4] has been updated (20220223)
[13:52] <BluesKaj> Hi folks
 Hello BluesKaj
[14:40] <BluesKaj> @ahoneybun, Hi
 Hello!
 @RikMills can I push out the 5.24.2 for 21.10 post or is that not out yet?
 Looks like it is out.
[17:29] <RikMills> it is
 Can I push it then?
[18:02] <RikMills> please do
 What about the 5.18.8 for 20.04?
 I just pushed the 5.24.2 for 21.10 post.
 The Breeze Twilight theme looks a lot like the Kubuntu one.
[18:52] <RikMills> funny that
[18:58] <Maik> is there any bug known for Discover on Jammy? It shows updates but not the size of the packages, they remain 0
[19:02] <Maik> like this which is happening now, fetched updates but shows 0 in size: https://i.imgur.com/1iLN0qc.png
[19:11] <RikMills> not had that reported
[19:13] <Maik> RikMills: i can report it on launchpad, right?
[19:13] <Maik> will do so later on if i find the time or tomorrow.
[19:31] <Eickmeyer> Maik: There's a known bug with the backend (packagekit) that we've fixed upstream that just has to make it in.
[19:31] <Eickmeyer> Maik: bug 1961837
[19:32] <Eickmeyer> That's where your troubles are. Be patient.
[19:37] <Maik> Eickmeyer: ah ok, thanks
[19:41] <Eickmeyer> RikMills: That bug is what's causing the problems Maik was discussing.
[19:41] <Eickmeyer> So, yes, it was reported and is ready.
[19:41] <Eickmeyer> UNRELATED
[19:42] <Eickmeyer> RikMills: ZFS doesn't seem to be available on the Kubuntu iso. Ubiquity is already set-up to do automatic partitioning with ZFS so long as the tools are available, so is there any chance we can add the ZFS tools to the ISO?
 I think ZFS is broken for kernels 5.15.
[19:44] <RikMills> Eickmeyer: installer team did not choose to implement zfs support in the KDE front end
[19:44] <RikMills> only in the gtk one
[19:47] <Eickmeyer> RikMills: Sounds like a bug report to me.
[19:48] <Eickmeyer> @ahoneybun: Looks like that's something that will get fixed by the Canonical teams then, because that's kindof a selling point for Ubuntu these days.
 It seems an odd one but oh well. I could look at the KDE front end though it would require a lot of work.
 @ahoneybun The Foundations Team is very open to merge requests (aka don't make them do the work).
 But, this late in the game, they're going to want a bug report open first.
 I just don't use ZFS and I've already had to deal with the installer code once for Kubuntu lol
 It's not getting into 22.04 that's for sure.
 As have I. heh
 Well, with a bug report it can get in as late as Final Freeze.
 The Slideshow broke for us a while ago and needed to be fix.
 Oooof
 Yay Qt4 end of life
 \o/
 Also nice to see more folks around @Eickmeyer
[19:59] <mmikowski> hey, I'm here too ;)
 Well, I'm always around, especially since Ubuntu Studio is also using Plasma, but also because I work for mmikowski.
[20:00] <mmikowski> good to see you Aaron. I remember you and I spending quite a bit of time talking about esoteric system issues on support :)
 Well I used an Telegram tag lol
 support?
[20:01] <mmikowski> Yeah, with s76. I bought a bunch of computers from them over the years.
 Ahhh yes I am still there lol
[20:03] <mmikowski> yeah, I ran KDE over the top of Pop.
 I was looking at updating our slideshow but need more design and HTML experience lol
 Also for the demo to not be pure white lol
 I have Kubuntu 22.04 LTS at home and Pop 21.10 at work.
[20:03] <mmikowski> @ahoneybun I have tons of experience in that area.
[20:04] <mmikowski> If you want help, send over what you are doing and I can at least offer suggestions. Likely, I can cut the images, write the css3, etc.
 I think it's pure HTML right now. I'm trying to make it look like Ubuntu MATE with better style.
[20:28] <mmikowski> node + js + css + html + images (svg + raster) + design are my bag. If you want to collab on that, let me know.
[20:28] <mmikowski> happy to help out
[20:44] <valorie> wonderful to see the collaboration happening here again!
[20:44] <valorie> by here, I mean in the devel channel
[20:54] <mmikowski> @valorie thanks! @ahoneybun we could do a live session to discuss, also coud use penpot.app
 Oh for sure I would enjoy it as well
 https://irc-attachments.kde.org/061a1954/file_53331.jpg
 new icons!
[21:02] <mmikowski> Are those new, or do you need new ones?
[21:03] <mmikowski> Hmm, they look pretty current...
[21:04] <mmikowski> @ahoneybun Here is the official Kate SVG from /usr/share/icons. Although honestly, it doesn't exactly scream 'text editor'.
 That's where I got the icons from.
[21:06] <mmikowski> @ahoneybun Sure. Whatever you feel is best. If you're not using SVGs, that might be a nice upgrade as they should render better. It just depends on the HTML.
 I'm wondering about highlighting KDE Connect instead.
 I'm using SVG where I can now.
[21:06] <mmikowski> @ahoneybun: I think that's a great idea
[21:06] <mmikowski> https://kfocus.org/img/appgrid/app-kdeconnect.svg
[21:07] <mmikowski> https://kfocus.org/img/appgrid/app-firefox.svg
[21:07] <mmikowski> etc, there all there.
 They are also in /usr/share/icons
[21:08] <mmikowski> yes, but those are all cleaned-up and sized. The ones in /usr/share/icons are not optimized for the web. Those are.
[21:09] <mmikowski> The ones in /usr/share/icons all use different bounding boxes that can be incompatible. So that's the added value of those, as the bounding boxes are all normalized.
[21:10] <mmikowski> IMO, the libreoffice icon is rather stark. Also, not sure about Elisa, since many people have moved to spotify or similar.
[21:10] <mmikowski> Just suggestions of course.
[21:11] <mmikowski> Maybe something more colorful for libreoffice? https://kfocus.org/img/appgrid/app-libreoffice-6.1-calc.svg
[21:12] <mmikowski> I know thats for calc, but it sure looks prettier IMO.
 That's upstream icon though not Breeze.
[21:14] <mmikowski> Sure, but perhaps another breeze icons that is more colorful. Again, that one is very black and stark IMO. Something more colorful might sell better.
[21:16] <mmikowski> The current breeze libreoffice calc, for example, is green and white, and probably would look better. Just my opinion, but it actually looks like an app to me, whereas the black icon could almost be mistaken as an error document (e.g. like a broken image link or unknown document).
[21:17] <mmikowski> Again, just suggestions to consider.
 Of course I like the feedback keep that in mind!
 It's nice to have.
 I need something sort for KDE Connect though as the others are 2 words
[21:18] <mmikowski> cool.
[21:18] <mmikowski> Yeah, the kde connect icon IIRC was one of the troublesome ones that had to be resize and rebounded to render correctly in HTML.
[21:20] <mmikowski> What do you need re 'sort for KDE connect though' - you mean a summary or something?
 2 word summary like web browser for Firefox or File Manager for Dolphin
[21:20] <mmikowski> like KDE-Connect, Connect To Your Phone sr something?
 Connection Mobile?
[21:20] <mmikowski> ah, yes
[21:20] <mmikowski> Let me see what we used ...
[21:21] <mmikowski> maybe not the best, but android-tools.
 https://irc-attachments.kde.org/60ba41b2/file_53332.jpg
[21:21] <mmikowski> But that is due to very limited space. You hve a LOT more breathing room here.
 It makes things off center.
 Yea
[21:22] <mmikowski> Ok, so this is where that bounding box stuff comes into play. 
[21:22] <mmikowski> I can see it happening on libreoffice.
[21:23] <mmikowski> I think the KDE connect stuff looks great, actually
[21:23] <mmikowski> Maybe say 'Mobile Connect'.
[21:23] <mmikowski> Still gets the idea across, but shorter.
[21:24] <mmikowski> I recommend you try the normalized icons to see if it fixes the bounding box problem.  I can get you all the URLs to directly download if you like
[21:24] <mmikowski> Just let me know, and I'll send them to you here.
[21:25] <mmikowski> @ahoneybun you know you can browse any icon you'd like here and download. They are all normalize:
[21:25] <mmikowski> https://kfocus.org/#bkm_apps
 I can make the icons smaller.
[21:26] <mmikowski> Of course, that isn't everything, but perhaps a good starting point.
[21:29] <mmikowski> ok, well ping me if you want help. I definitely know how to make the grid work as you can see :) 
 Yea I need to push to bzr/lp
 It's going here.
 https://irc-attachments.kde.org/30041e0c/file_53333.jpg
 I like this.
[21:34] <mmikowski> Looks better. IMO, libreoffice is still to generic and white. Also, Elisa looks antiquated IMO.
 https://irc-attachments.kde.org/87a7555a/file_53334.jpg
[21:35] <mmikowski> If it were me, I'd use LibreOffice Calc or any other app to get some color there (green is good)
 Better?
[21:35] <mmikowski> Replace Elisa with _anything_ :)
[21:35] <mmikowski> Kate is actually good, and it would be a good juxtaposition to libreoffice
 I need something to replace Elisa with then. I think it's fine VLC also handles local content and please do use it.
 I have local music as well
[21:41] <mmikowski> @ahoneybun I think Elisa is a great app, it's just an unfortunate icon. The style of the icon is old, and a cassette is old. It also doesn't size well. So it's a graphic design concern only.
 Spectacle?
 I love it lol
[21:42] <mmikowski> Spectacle is awesome, and something everyone wants and needs
 I'm doing it then lol
 https://irc-attachments.kde.org/62d68886/file_53335.jpg
[21:50] <mmikowski> I think you need libreoffice in there. Too big of an app to miss. An office suite is a must.
 I also needed to update the Kate icon
 SO both Kate and LibreOffice?
 What about keeping Okular?
[21:51] <mmikowski> Okular is good and essential. People must be able to read PDFs IMO
 Mm then we need to lose something.
[21:52] <mmikowski> I did some sizing on your last mockup.  Most are good.
 Maybe Discover since we talk about it in the sentence?
[21:52] <mmikowski> But LibreOffice and Dolphin were oversized.
 Everything should be 64px
 I could resize to 32px then I would have more room
[21:54] <mmikowski> I think if anything, IMO kate or spectacle are optional.  Software center seems essential, especially since it is referenced above. It puts a face to it, which is good.
[21:54] <mmikowski> Let me cut you an image of the size problem ...
 https://irc-attachments.kde.org/1751ecd2/file_53336.jpg
 This is what it looks like to me.
 Office suiter?
 oops
 lol
[21:59] <mmikowski> https://michaelmikowski.com/file_53334-rev.jpg
[22:00] <mmikowski> That shows the bounding box sizing issue. Regarldess of the icon, HTML gets squirrelly with img tags and SVG unless they have normalized bounding boxes.
[22:01] <mmikowski> So as you can see there, the libreoffice and dolphin icons are oversized. The others are sized correctly (I imported all normalized icons over the top to check).
[22:01] <mmikowski> The latest attachement is probably similar. While I *love* spectacle, the icon does look a bit, um, big.
[22:02] <mmikowski> let me snag that image and see how the sizing stacks up
 Mm I don't see that though Dolphin maybe is a big larger
 Do you see the source code?
[22:04] <mmikowski> @ahoneybun no, I don't see the source code unfortunately. Just a jpg image. Which obviously make this *much* harder.
[22:05] <mmikowski> ugh. Gimp just crashed :P
[22:05] <mmikowski> so just lost all my sizing work :(
 This should help: https://pastebin.ubuntu.com/p/PTxp26xNQj/
[22:06] <mmikowski> Yeah, much better!
 \o/
[22:07] <mmikowski> What's the HTML interpreter? 
 Not sure
 Webkit?
[22:07] <mmikowski> So relatively current
 This is the upstream: https://launchpad.net/ubiquity-slideshow-ubuntu
[22:09] <mmikowski> So, can we set css?
 Maybe?
 Most likely though I don't know if other projects do.
 https://packages.ubuntu.com/source/jammy/qtwebkit-opensource-src
[22:11] <mmikowski> If so, it will make the work far easier
[22:12] <mmikowski> Webkit is a good sign. The question is do we have the opportunity to set a stylesheet, since we are using just an HTML fragment here.
 I don't see any CSS.
 Not sure if they will take the changes with CSS.
[22:13] <mmikowski> Yeah, it will be somewhere else. But it *is* being set. Notice the class="main" tag near the top. 
[22:13] <mmikowski> it depends if they support a cusom or extended style sheet. If they don't, then it's a non-issue.
[22:14] <mmikowski> Also, preferred if supported in this version of qt-webkit is to use a CSS grid.
[22:15] <mmikowski> Or it might be. Traditional tables are problematic for grid work like this due to veritcal positioning and sizing issues, but depending on the rendering engine, tables might be all we got :)
[22:15] <mmikowski> I guess the right answer is stick with tables until there's a good reason not to.
 Yea it may be. I think I tried adding padding but I don't think it worked.
[22:17] <mmikowski> Yeah, the rules around table sizing is so tied to legacy behaviors that it gets really ugly, really fast.
[22:17] <mmikowski> Things like 'vertical-align: baseline' etc. Ugh.
[22:17] <mmikowski> Although the good news is the text you are using is aligning veritcally (I checked).
[22:18] <mmikowski> At that is NOT a small accomplishment.
[22:19] <mmikowski> Ooh, libreoffice is no longer vertically aligned, it appears.
[22:19] <mmikowski> The icon, not the text. The text still is.
[22:20] <mmikowski> here, let me grab and render ...
[22:24] <mmikowski> still working ...
 You're good.
[22:26] <mmikowski> ooh, inkscape, gimp ...
[22:28] <mmikowski> ah, we'll see ;)
[22:32] <mmikowski> ok, so here'a snapshot that's hacked together. The libreoffice icon is not the correct version, but the sizing is all normalized and I think aligned.
[22:32] <mmikowski> It's using the standard table too, so no fancy new syntax
 Those aren't shipped on the ISO though.
[22:36] <mmikowski> @ahoneybun: I know the libreoffice icon MUST be changed. It's just there because I do not have a normalized svg for the breeze icon yet.
[22:37] <mmikowski> This is just to show sizing and alignment. Actual fonts and spacings will differ.
 https://irc-attachments.kde.org/a983454c/file_53338.jpg
 Better?
[22:40] <mmikowski> YES!
[22:41] <mmikowski> Here's that screen shot that's been taking me forever. Sorry, had to create the css :\
[22:43] <mmikowski> https://michaelmikowski.com/Screenshot_20220223_143902.png
[22:44] <mmikowski> The Libreoffice icon looks great.
[22:45] <mmikowski> So the sizing stuff that I keep on about, it's not the sort of thing you *see*, it's something you *feel*. If the visual weights are not the same, it feels unsettled and less professional. That was shared to me be a designer who is a master of his craft (not me!)
[22:46] <mmikowski> let me snag a snap of your latest and see how the sizing stack ups.
[22:47] <mmikowski> me thinks Gimp might sell far better than spectacle, as there is an enormous following across platforms, just like with Libreoffice.
[22:48] <mmikowski> It's a mega-app, like Blender and Inkscape.  Those are great candidates too.
[22:48] <mmikowski> IMO
[22:51] <valorie> lots of people use Gimp, true -- but it is not a KDE app
[22:51] <mmikowski> Yeah, it's true
[22:51] <mmikowski> great point
[22:52] <valorie> plus spectacle is something I use at least daily
[22:52] <mmikowski> KDEnlive also is a *super* kde app
[22:52] <valorie> true that, but how many people are working with video?
[22:52] <valorie> more and more, yes
[22:52] <valorie> but 
[22:53] <mmikowski> I think we should be advocated super apps that are of the caliber to motivate peole to move platforms
[22:53] <valorie> kdenlive has come a long, long way tho
[22:53] <mmikowski> Meta-apps as we call them. These have whole ecosystems built around them cross plaform.
[22:53] <valorie> I would support kdenlive over gimp
[22:53] <mmikowski> When people see this, they get a feeling that this is a powerful OS that can handle almost anything.
[22:54] <mmikowski> So in reviewing my suggestion of spectacle, as a user I'd be far more impressed to see the following:
[22:54] <mmikowski> Gimp, Blender, LibreOffice, Inkscape, KDEnlive, etc.
[22:55] <mmikowski> Those *imply* spectacle and the others.
[22:55] <mmikowski> oh, VLC is also a meta-app
[22:55] <mmikowski> IMO
[22:55] <mmikowski> Those completely sell me.
 I can make another slide to talk about those applications as well. This slide is for the included applications.
[22:55] <mmikowski> Ooh, firefox too
[22:56] <mmikowski> Yeah, that's a great point Aaron.
[22:56] <mmikowski> I was just going to ask about the scope of this slid.
[22:56] <mmikowski> *slide
[22:57] <mmikowski> So yeah, that's a great idea IMO.  Like why Kubuntu kicks a**
 Apps in the default install/ISO
 So not gimp :P
[22:57] <mmikowski> @RikMills right. Got it.
[22:58] <mmikowski> I've got to run. @ahoneybun the sizing check shows Dolphin and LibreOffice icons are still too large. I'll send you the html in the pastebin for your review. These all use the normalized icons.
 https://irc-attachments.kde.org/846ae5b1/file_53339.jpg
 I haven't updated the icons but this is the new slide for additional applications that we can highlight.
[22:59] <mmikowski> https://pastebin.ubuntu.com/p/DtwjSP5TPG/
[22:59] <mmikowski> Something to play with
 gwenview is there, but its icon is 'odd'
[23:00] <mmikowski> kk guys, gotta run. Catch you soon!
 @RikMills where?
 https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/42/Gwenview_Icon.svg/768px-Gwenview_Icon.svg.png
 on the ISO
 Ah that one.
 https://irc-attachments.kde.org/dc59f59d/file_53340.jpg
 Looking better!
 Not why that's the krita icon in /usr/share/icons
[23:22] <valorie> that is looking really sharp
[23:23] <mparillo> I thought Spectacle was on the ISO, so you did not need to install it with Discover?
 No it is this slide is for additional software.
[23:24] <mmikowski> I'm back
[23:25] <mmikowski> so additional software me thinks should be the mega-apps that are not pre-installed but readily available from the repos.
 Yep they have to be in the repos.
[23:25] <RikMills> e.g. digikam etc
 HAVE to be
[23:25] <mmikowski> right
 I'm trying to find the other krita icon that it on the system when you install it.
[23:26] <mmikowski> My list is Gimp, Krita, Inkscape, Kdenlive, Blender
[23:26] <mmikowski> Audacity *used* to be a good bet :P
[23:27] <mmikowski> DigiKam, Kdevelop are good too.
 Not sure about Inkscape, GIMP and Blender as they aren't KDE stuff
[23:27] <RikMills> labplot is great for science users
 This is kinda neat: https://apps.kde.org/zanshin/
 Oh good one @RikMills !
[23:29] <RikMills> kstars is also very nice
[23:29] <mmikowski> @ahoneybun I think that Inkscape, Gimp, and Blender, while not KDE, are incredibly important for end users. They don't care about the backstory. The fact is they are immediately available and work great.
 https://apps.kde.org/skrooge/
 ?
[23:30] <RikMills> mmikowski: fair
[23:30] <mmikowski> In fact, kde has done a great job in making sure GTK apps integrate well (lots the hacking we did in 20.04 is no longer needed in 22.04 for apps integration)
[23:30] <mmikowski> So these mega apps are what bring people to the platform. If my brother asks me why should he use kubuntu, and I say 'spectacle', there's no impetus.
[23:31] <mmikowski> But if I say it runs Kdenlive and Blender super well, that's very convincing
[23:31] <mmikowski> Same with Inkscape. Heck, I designed all the SVG icons for SnapLogic using Inkscape.
 https://irc-attachments.kde.org/9b28e3c8/file_53344.jpg
 So far.
 Still looking for the other Krita icon
[23:32] <mmikowski> This? https://kfocus.org/img/appgrid/app-krita.svg
 I got it lol
 https://irc-attachments.kde.org/32570ca6/file_53345.jpg
 That's the one that the application installs.
[23:34] <mmikowski> Hmm, that must be new for 22.04. 20.04 uses the fater paint brush.
[23:34] <mmikowski> Also, is that the new blender?
 https://twitter.com/Krita_Painting (re @ahoneybun: That's the one that the application installs.)
 It's in the system
[23:34] <mmikowski> again, 20.04 uses a "fatter" icon
 Is it the one they have there on twitter you are looking for?
 It looks like that's the official one then.
 mm
 I'm using what's from the package I guess.
[23:36] <mmikowski> So, interesting bit, I've found with the icons that many apps install variants in /usr/share/icons. So what I've done is looked them up in the menu or .desktop files to find the canonical image. You might already be doing this, but if you're not, you might be finding variants instead of what is shown in the menu.
 I think it's using the fater one
 Are we good with the selection first.
 https://invent.kde.org/graphics/krita
[23:37] <mmikowski> I'm assuming we want exactly the same svg as used in the menu, but then sized to a consistent 128x128px svg and consistent padding.
[23:38] <mmikowski> You have my input.  Mega-apps win hearts and minds :)
[23:39] <RikMills> yes, the same as seen in kicker etc. anything else is just confusing to users
 I changed it.
[23:39] <RikMills> even if the icon is fugly
[23:39] <mmikowski> @ahoneybun so yeah, looks like you found a variant. @RikMills *completely* agree.
 I think we're good on the applications then.
 https://irc-attachments.kde.org/dd8419bb/file_53346.jpg
[23:41] <mmikowski> @ahoneybun maybe two slides on the apps? Those non-kde apps are seriously compelling and run great. It's a shame not to publicize them IMO.
 I think that's a bit much though. I think we have a good mix unless I swap out Krita for Inkscape.
[23:41] <RikMills> I think we can kill the accessibility slide ;)
 Oh?
[23:42] <mmikowski> btw, I downloaded the source and can see what is involved with the HTML/CSS. I can probably tell you in a few minutes if a CSS file is an option.
[23:42] <ahoneybun> RikMills: you want to kill it?
[23:42] <RikMills> don't think it adds much as it is sort of assumed now, and is a bit odd in appearance
[23:42] <mmikowski> @RikMills yeah, kill the accessability with the "oh, you can also run these industry standard apps that have an enormous ecosystem" slide sounds great to me :)
[23:43] <RikMills> indeed
[23:44] <ahoneybun> Alright if two folks think we should have two slides I guess so. Now what to have as the text. 
[23:44] <ahoneybun> Maybe the first slide with only KDE and the other with non-KDE>?
[23:44]  * RikMills is heading for sleep. sorry
[23:45] <mmikowski> @ahoneybun I think that's a *great* idea
[23:45] <mmikowski> Or certainly a great place to start
[23:45] <ahoneybun> Well get me a list again lol
[23:47] <mmikowski> Gimp, Krita, Inkscape, Kdenlive, Blender, Darktable, 
[23:48] <mmikowski> There are some great commercial apps, but we probably want to steer clear of those for lots of good reasons.
[23:49] <valorie> krita is def. KDE, but it is super
[23:49] <valorie> and people use it on every platform including apple-stuff
[23:49] <valorie> their team is super
[23:49] <mmikowski> valorie: right! 
[23:50] <mmikowski> The "meta-app" or "mega-app" is something where there are dozens or hundreds of how-to videos on them. Krita is *definitely* one of those.  People who are moving from Mac want to know "but will it run krita, inkscape, and gimp?"
[23:51] <mmikowski> ahoneybun: I've got the CSS for the kubuntu slide show.  My guess is it's just fine to update.
[23:52] <mmikowski> ahoneybun: is there an easy way to view the slideshow from the source package? I've got it unwrapped, but not sure what to run.
[23:52] <ahoneybun> ./test-slideshow.sh kubuntu
[23:52] <ahoneybun> though I think you need some extra packages
[23:52] <ahoneybun> well from the packaging from LP
[23:52] <mmikowski> ooh, that's too obvious ;)
[23:53] <mmikowski> ah, i'ts all there
[23:54] <mmikowski> although it doesn't appear hi-dpi friendly at all. I'm seeing less than half the slide, and the window isn't resizable.
[23:54] <ahoneybun> Yea I've been scrolling around.
[23:55] <mmikowski> But yeah, I can definitely adjust the CSS, and it is kubuntu specific
[23:55] <mmikowski> So those neat adjustments I sent you in the pastebin can go in there and you wouldn't need to copy-n-paste to every img, for example.
[23:56] <mmikowski> Plus, modification is super fast that way.
[23:59] <mmikowski> I'm tracing the window sizing ...