[03:31] <arraybolt3[m]> After being on many of these channels for a while, I've thought of some ideas that might help better the IRC support channels. Thoughts, questions, and critique all welcome. https://paste.ubuntu.com/p/ffpg55MWMP/
[03:32] <arraybolt3[m]> (Clicking the "View Raw" button will make it ten times easier to read.)
[04:02] <Bashing-om> arraybolt3[m]: I have read what you wrote ^ - I do applaud your willingness to attempt to make support the better. Fresh insights are always a good thing. However, any change to channel operations must be through the channel operators.
[04:07] <arraybolt3[m]> Of course. This was just bouncing some ideas around. (I know channel ops are in this thread, at least tomreyn is anyway, so I figured this would be a good place.)
[04:08] <arraybolt3[m]> s/thread/channel
[04:29] <Bashing-om> arraybolt3[m]: Yeah - here is a good place to start the discussion.
[10:53] <oerheks>  /clear
[17:08] <enigma9o7[m]> I started reading the document.  Kinda annoying you gotta login to use the raw view....         anyway just going thru now, and the first thing I noticed, is that you mention element truncates the topic or something... it doesn't for me.....  
[17:08]  * enigma9o7[m] uploaded an image: (72KiB) < https://libera.ems.host/_matrix/media/r0/download/matrix.org/xhfFWZNTgsKqMfAJjYMHjvDt/2022-07-05-100809.png >
[17:11] <enigma9o7[m]> You also say "Element squishes it to high heaven, colors it gray, and then puts it in a spot where the user has a good chance of missing it entirely." and sure the color is grey, but its prominently displayed at the top of the screen all t he time, so I dunno, not easy to miss.
[17:12] <enigma9o7[m]> That being said, I've been following #ubuntu a few months now and have never clicked on that guidelines link.
[17:17] <enigma9o7[m]> As to dontasktoask.com type stuff, sure telling someone about it just wastes time that time, but it means for the next 100 times they ask questions the rest of their life you won't have to tell them again.
 "That being said, I've been..." <- And that my friend is the problem.
 "As to dontasktoask.com type..." <- Makes sense on the surface, but I've watched at least one, maybe two users get chased off. Maybe we can make it something we do at the end of the support session, rather than right out of the starting gate?
[18:45] <sarnold> no one ever *reads* the channel topic, except to find out if the channel looks like it might be the right place
[18:46] <sarnold> I've been in ##crypto for something like 15 or 20 years and despite clearly saying that it isn't about cryptocurrency in the topic, every few days someone comes in and asks about their favourite pump-and-dump scheme..
[18:46] <arraybolt3[m]> sarnold: Sadly, true. If IRC clients would highlight it in red with bright yellow text, people would probably read it right quick. But instead they print it in gray or something and make it tricky to spot if you aren't purposefully looking for it. Thus the "automated bot private message" idea.
[18:48] <sarnold> yellow on red is hard to read though
[18:48] <arraybolt3[m]> sarnold: OK how on planet earth did you just pull that off. I didn't even know IRC could do that and Matrix is showing it just fine.
[18:49] <sarnold> arraybolt3[m]: there's a table of colour numbers on https://www.mirc.com/colors.html -- I just type ^C8,4 and make everyone miserable :D
[18:49] <arraybolt3[m]> Well tell Ubottu to do that to every new user it sees! And make it echo the channel topic.
[18:49] <sarnold> lol
[18:50] <arraybolt3[m]> (yellow on red isn't strictly necessary, but just SOMETHING to make it stand out.)
[18:50] <sarnold> the trouble with the "to every new user" thing is that eg chanserv will send "entry message" things to people, and it's *amazing* to see how many of them collect in one place when services restarts, or my client restarts..
[18:51] <arraybolt3[m]> I guess since I'm on Matrix, I don't notice it so much, but I do remember copious amounts of junk appearing in my ChanServ stuff.
[18:51] <arraybolt3[m]> I also learned to tune out ChanServ in about 10 seconds after opening IRC for the first time...
[18:52] <arraybolt3[m]> (What's with us stubborn humans?)
[18:54] <arraybolt3[m]> I guess by "every new user" I meant, like, Ubottu could keep a list of nicknames its seen before, and if a new one showed up, it would PM the user with the IRC guidelines link and then add them to the "seen" list.
[18:57] <arraybolt3[m]> Hey, I've got another idea to make things stand out. We've learned from experience with so many different things that warning a user rarely works. But having something outright fail will virtually always get someone's attention. What if the first time you joined #ubuntu, Ubottu (or whatever) instantly booted you and gave you a PM with the IRC guidelines data, then added you to the seen list. You'd be allowed in the second time.
[23:29] <hggdh> when you join a channel, the topic is (usually, at least with weechat) printed, and any PvNotices are also printed. But I am not sure we can force anyone to read them
[23:31] <Jeremy31> People can read the topic?
[23:33] <oerheks> topic here is 84, right?
[23:33] <arraybolt3[m]> Yeah, they can, but on many chat clients, the topic kinda hides. Element plops it in grey color at the top of the screen when you hardly ever look at the top of the screen. Quassel colors it grey, making it less noticeable. I think Konversation did that too.
[23:34] <arraybolt3[m]> oerheks: what?
[23:35] <hggdh> but this is something that only the client's devs can fix. I do agree that it is not ideal
[23:36] <hggdh> on my weechat, the topic is printed in red with a light-ish blue background. This combination is guaranteed to make it impossible for me to read it
[23:36] <arraybolt3[m]> hggdh: That's true, but there should be other ways to come at it. I don't think a client dev is going to change their UI because one Libera.Chat channel asked nicely, but we have full control over Ubottu and the like.
[23:37] <arraybolt3[m]> hggdh: ack (re: on my weechat...)
[23:37] <hggdh> and a lot of channels (not all, mind you) block colouring by posts
[23:37] <arraybolt3[m]> (ack as in yikes)
[23:37] <hggdh> :-)
[23:37] <arraybolt3[m]> Yeah, the color change idea might not have been so good.
[23:38] <hggdh> it was worth trying. For me, is by the exchange of ideas that I work best