[03:52] <arraybolt3[m]> From what I've seen, it appears we have either too few channel ops or we've distributed them poorly. The !ops trigger is sometimes called and nothing that I can see is ever done about it. Other times it takes a very long time for anything to happen when the events that are occurring are severe.
[03:52] <arraybolt3[m]> One idea to fix this would be to make operators of any one official Ubuntu channel be operators of all of them. That would spread out the power evenly and make an !ops call in any one channel more likely to be dealt with in a timely fashion.
[03:52] <arraybolt3[m]> Another idea might be to recruit more channel ops.
[03:53] <arraybolt3[m]> (One particular incident I noticed was an argument between Eickmeyer and "I am the human 1" in #kubuntu. (Eickmeyer is the Ubuntu Studio team lead and the operator of #ubuntustudio and the Telegram part of #kubuntu.) "I am the human 1" was obviously acting out of line, and after repeated warnings, Eickmeyer finally called !ops... and nothing happened AFAICT.
[03:54] <arraybolt3[m]> If ops in one channel were ops everywhere, Eickmeyer could have issued an immediate kick at that point, keeping any further trouble from occurring.)
[04:27] <arraybolt3[m]> (This may not actually be a good or necessary idea - further conversation in #ubuntu-discuss has revealed that I might be overreacting (ok nevermind I'm almost certainly overreacting). So maybe this doesn't need to be changed at all.)
[09:51] <lotuspsychje> testing webchat Fallen|tmp ?
[09:53] <Fallen|tmp> just testing how things look from actual IRC :)
[09:53] <Fallen|tmp> (other nick is using the Matrix bridge)
[09:54] <lotuspsychje> cool
[12:09] <alkisg> Creating a matrix space with bridges to all the ubuntu irc channels would be cool too ;)
[12:09] <ravage> is there more than one with actual users in it?
[12:10] <alkisg> IRC channels? Sure
[12:10] <ravage> matrix channels
[12:10] <ravage> im not sure if a matrix space of IRC channels is useful
[12:10] <ravage> but it can be created of course
[12:11] <alkisg> I see several people using matrix to access IRC
[12:11] <ravage> yes. i linked them in the matrix room already
[12:12] <alkisg> Sure, "add room" and searching for the exact room name also works, but if instead of the Ubuntu matrix channel, we had the #ubuntu bridge, I believe it would help increase the audience
[12:12] <alkisg> IRC is fine for older users, Matrix is more close to newer users but doesn't have enough users yet; bridges can bridge the gap and help both
[12:13] <alkisg> E.g. #ubuntu-mate moved on to discord, so its IRC users were lost
[12:13] <ravage> that really is a shame
[12:13] <alkisg> While an official Matrix blessing would make moves to telegram or discord etc more rare
[12:14] <ravage> if you have a list we can start with then why not
[12:15] <alkisg> A list of the irc channels on libera? I believe they can be listed with some irc /list command
[12:15] <ravage> oh channels that could be useful for the space
[12:16] <ravage> *of
[12:16] <alkisg> Not sure about that, which are the most active wrt community
[12:16] <alkisg> I'm only on #ubuntu, #kubuntu and #ubuntu-mate, but others are also on #ubuntu-discuss and lots of others
[12:23] <lotuspsychje> i like that idea too
[12:23] <lotuspsychje> on the meeting with Fallen i was already stating 2 ways to improve our user count towards ubuntu
[12:24] <lotuspsychje> https://discourse.ubuntu.com/t/simplify-irc-community-support-process/23220
[12:24] <lotuspsychje> this
[12:24] <lotuspsychje> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/hexchat/+bug/1831220
[12:24] <lotuspsychje> and my wishlist 
[12:25] <lotuspsychje> imagine ubuntu desktop would have an irc client by default, and user could even come get support from a live
[12:28] <ravage> i would prefer to include element as a default snap. but i guess alkisg would not be so pleased :D
[12:28] <ravage> but there are other matrix clients
[12:29] <ravage> more modern and the IRC channels can be reached via the space too
[12:30] <lotuspsychje> its not about hexchat really
[12:30] <lotuspsychje> just use a default one so the users can find us
[12:32] <ravage> my idea was to include a matrix client instead of an IRC client :)
[12:32] <lotuspsychje> anyway would be cool
[12:32] <lotuspsychje> now its like 2 dead ends right
[12:32] <lotuspsychje> try yelp==>get more help==>community support to find a channel
[12:33] <lotuspsychje> its so messy atm
[12:39] <Fallen> More modern synchronous communication is one of the pieces in my strategy on lowering the barrier of entry. Matrix is certainly a favorite, but I think we need to assess what the different options are and the pros and cons of each.
[12:39] <Fallen> I'd like to have one "main" platform that holds most of the communication channels and is the authoritative place to communicate about Ubuntu. We can bridge other platforms through a somewhat more narrow bridge, but I'd like to avoid fragmentation.
[12:40] <lotuspsychje> sounds good
[12:41] <ravage> something like https://matrix.to/#/#ubuntu-space:xentonix.net
[12:41] <Fallen> Regarding Matrix itself, before we promote spaces on the exiting libera bridge, I think we should find out what the best option is regarding homeservers, e.g. should there be chat.ubuntu.com, vs something on libera, etc. If we promote a space on one server the migration will be even more confusing.
[12:41] <ravage> a room can have multiple names
[12:41] <ravage> they are federated
[12:41] <ravage> so its no problem to add a name to the space on a new homeserver
[12:42] <ravage> only the room id matters really
[12:43] <Fallen> Right, but IIUC federated means we can access the room through a different homeserver, like I am doing now with my own. I see some importance on deciding where the actual physical room is hosted.
[12:43] <ravage> there is no such thing in matrix
[12:43] <ravage> rooms do not belong to a homeserver
[12:45] <Fallen> But a room has a main address?
[12:46] <Fallen> I've run in to issues before on the Mozilla homeserver, where some people participated via matrix.org, and they weren't able to do all the things to a room because it was on the Mozilla homeserver. I don't quite recall what that was though.
[12:46] <ravage> yes. it can have multiple published addresses and you can set a main one
[12:47] <ravage> but if you would create an ubuntu homeserver then you could set your own address as the published one in your homeserver directory
[12:49] <ravage> there is also a bridge to discord. i never used it myself
[12:50] <ravage> so i think matrix is a good place to connect everyone
[12:51] <Fallen> Thank you for the insight, I will keep that in mind! I need to head off to a meeting, see you later all :)
[12:52] <ravage> "enjoy" the meeting :)
[14:37] <ravage> https://i.imgur.com/U4gnnaX.png
[15:05] <arraybolt3[m]> Can I just chime in and say, despite how cool Matrix is, I don't think we should make it the default chat app for getting help in Ubuntu? Not everyone can get an email address easily (they may not know about things like ProtonMail), and you can't use Matrix without an email address AFAIK.
[15:05] <arraybolt3[m]> IRC, you just plug in a nickname and you're live, which makes it much more easy for a user who just needs some help to get help without having to also register for yet another service, if they're able to register at all.
[15:06] <ravage> there is a way of using matrix as a guest
[15:06] <ravage> but i havent looked into that much yet
[15:06] <ravage> and its totally fine to offer IRC and Matrix
[15:09] <ravage> https://github.com/vector-im/chatterbox seems to be a way to allow users to join but as i said i have not looked into it yet
[15:10] <ravage> im pretty sure IRC will be around for a long time anyway
[15:15] <arraybolt3[m]> ravage: Hey, I like the Ubuntu space!
[15:15] <arraybolt3[m]> Maybe that will let me clean up my Matrix some (it's gettin' a tad messy over here).
[15:15] <ravage> :)
[15:21] <lotuspsychje> screenshot looks tight
[15:22] <lotuspsychje> i agree with arraybolt3[m] also, just plug in a user that joins directly into support without hassle, should be our end goal
[15:29] <leftyfb> there are web irc clients that do just that using just a link
[15:31] <lotuspsychje> do you mean our existing webchat for ubuntu leftyfb ?
[15:32] <leftyfb> Yeah, I’m not sure how much easier you can get than that
[15:32] <leftyfb> Also, thunderbird has an irc client built in
[15:32] <lotuspsychje> ah yeah, i forgot about that
[15:34] <lotuspsychje> leftyfb: the problem with our webchat its 6 clicks away from; https://ubuntu.com/support/community-support
[15:34] <leftyfb> Then we need to fix that
[15:34] <lotuspsychje> yeah i reported that on discourse and now to Fallen aswell
[15:35] <lotuspsychje> the thunderbird idea is neat
[15:35] <lotuspsychje> just testing you dont need to setup email to join irc
[15:37] <ravage> on the thunderbird note: when k9 mails becomes thunderbird the chat option for support would be a nice feature on mobile devices ;)
[15:37] <lotus|thunder> hi i need support asap :p
[15:37] <ravage> :D
[15:38] <lotuspsychje> >lotus|thunder< CTCP VERSION
[15:38] <lotuspsychje> -lotus|thunder- VERSION Thunderbird 91.11.0
[15:38] <lotuspsychje> +1 for leftyfb 
[15:39] <lotuspsychje> just not all users would be aware to ask for support via thunderbird
[15:42] <arraybolt3[m]> The webchat is far less than ideal IMO. It disconnects you if you're idle too long, which means that by the time someone's there to help, the person who needs help may have vanished. How do we expect users to have patience if the software they use is in a hurry?
[15:42] <lotuspsychje> is there a time cap on dc on webchat arraybolt3[m] ?
[15:42] <ravage> i will look into some alternatives if i have the time
[15:43] <arraybolt3[m]> I dunno, I'll open the webchat and join here and we'll find out the time cap. I'm pretty sure it will happen though.
[15:43] <ravage> but i have seen guest users on the support channel that stayed a long time
[15:44] <Aaron|webchat> Hello? Help? HELP!
[15:44] <arraybolt3[m]> Alright, looks like it works.
[15:44] <arraybolt3[m]> Now let's see how long it takes for me to get auto-disconnected.
[15:45] <lotuspsychje> lol !patience
[15:46] <lotuspsychje> looking at my wishlist, the flavour team leads seem to use quassel a lot https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/hexchat/+bug/1831220
[15:46] <ravage> Fallen, what are the chances you have time to travel to Bonn on the 20th and/or 21st of August? :D
[15:46] <arraybolt3[m]> ravage: Can we make #ubuntu-devel not part of the Ubuntu space? And maybe add #ubuntu-next to it.
[15:47] <ravage> let me make you mod. maybe you can add them yourself then :D
[15:47] <arraybolt3[m]> (All the other devel channels aren't in the space, and I use them all.)
[15:48] <ravage> try.
[15:48] <ravage> im not sure which level is needed
[15:48] <ravage> it looks like mod is enough
[15:49] <arraybolt3[m]> Let's see if I can figure out what I'm even doing here :D
[15:50] <arraybolt3[m]> Looks like it worked!
[15:53] <arraybolt3[m]> Maybe it's just the Lubuntu webchat link that auto-disconnects like crazy - I should have gotten unplugged from the webchat long ago, yet I'm still here. Or maybe it's just that I'm also in an active room there and so it's keeping it alive?
[15:54] <arraybolt3[m]> OK now I'm only in #lubuntu with the webchat, we'll see how that goes.
[17:12] <arraybolt3[m]> Welp, turns out the webchat doesn't auto-disconnect when you come in through the IRC channel list! Good to know, also makes me wonder why it kept disconnecting me before.
[18:49] <Fallen> ravage: what's going on in Bonn?
[18:51] <Fallen> arraybolt3: why not include #ubuntu-devel ?
[19:02] <ravage> Fallen: froscon.de
[19:05] <Fallen> Ah yes, I had heard about that but forgot it was Bonn. I might be able to make it, I'm checking to see what additional conferences might fit into our conference strategy for this year.
[19:17] <ravage> Would be great :)
[19:17] <ravage> You should check a room soon though 
[19:17] <ravage> Always a little crowded there over the weekend 
[19:18] <ravage> But you can get there quick even directly from Bonn
[19:18] <ravage> It's at the University 
[19:22] <ravage> we stay at https://www.euro-park-hotel.de/
[19:38] <arraybolt3[m]> Fallen: I didn't want #ubuntu-devel included in the Ubuntu Space since all the other channels were support channels or discussion channels, and I keep my development life and support life separate. (I also am joined to virtually all the support and development channels and didn't like having one devel channel in with all the support channels - I'd like to keep all the -devel thingies in one spot.)
[19:38] <arraybolt3[m]> (Like, I do development and support at the same time, but the conversations are entirely different in many/most instances.)
[19:39] <Fallen> That is fair, more spaces then :-)
[19:40] <arraybolt3[m]> Fallen: OK, I like that idea. Want me to see if I can figure out how to throw together an Ubuntu Workshop space where all the development-related channels go?
[19:41] <Fallen> Sure, go ahead :) Spaces are cheap!
[19:49] <arraybolt3[m]> OK, that's a start. If the icon I made isn't OK, let me know (I figured we were OK with the icon for the other Ubuntu space so I turned the CoF logo into another logo with fire in the center, sort of like that space being the forge where Ubuntu is made).