[00:12] <gry> hi
[00:12] <sarnold> heya gry, how's it going?
[00:14] <gry> so-so, one bedroom got flooded, strata manager taking a while to fix
[00:14] <gry> thinking of taking advantage of the panic on property market and buying something tiny
[00:16] <gry> i'm renting at the moment but might be able to afford something very cheap if it's not mouldy
[00:23] <sarnold> gry: oh no :( I'm sorry to hear it :(
[00:23] <sarnold> gry: have prices actually dropped? that'd be good news for most folks, I think
[00:28] <gry> house prices - yes
[00:28] <gry> aud also dropped a bit
[00:28] <gry> nobody knows whether house prices are going to increase again a few weeks or years later
[00:28] <gry> someone wrote that they're going to increase after interest rates stopped increasing, as people will become more confident in their borrowing power again
[00:28] <gry> someone else suggests that if interest rates stay up, house prices will probably continue to stay down
[00:29] <gry> and value of a house is important, because it is called equity and can be used as a deposit for a second home loan
[00:29] <gry> plus if things go bad, and you can't sell your house for as much as you borrowed, then you're in trouble
[00:35] <sarnold> yeah, a *lot* of people ran into that in the 2008 mess
[00:36] <sarnold> but I think there's enough new rules on lending that I think there's probably fewer people over-extendewd in the same fashion
[01:27] <lotuspsychje> good morning
[03:34] <arraybolt3[m]> I think we're short on channel operators around here. I've seen multiple events where the !ops trigger was called and nothing seemed to end up ever happening that I could tell, despite extreme harassment and inappropriate behavior. Other times the time between the trigger and the disciplinary action was excessively long.
[03:34] <arraybolt3[m]> I'm wondering if operators for any of the official Ubuntu channels should be made operators for all of them, or if perhaps the IRC team needs to ask for more operators to apply. Thoughts?
[03:36] <arraybolt3[m]> (Like, perhaps all of the operators should be ops for all of the official Ubuntu channels, rather than some people being ops for some channels and some being ops for others.
[03:36] <arraybolt3[m]> ) Why do I have to miss the end parenthesis so often...
[03:38] <lotuspsychje> sounds like a topic for #ubuntu-community-team too arraybolt3[m] 
[03:39] <arraybolt3[m]> lotuspsychje: Do you think I should crosspost it there?
[03:39] <lotuspsychje> yes, its relevant
[03:39] <arraybolt3[m]> 👍️
[03:39] <guiverc[m]> I'm not an IRC op, but on other platforms where I note a OPS type of call (and I can act/op); it does take time to read back what has happened , understand it etc. 
[03:40] <arraybolt3[m]> That makes sense. But some of the actions that are getting missed are... extreme. Not just "ok what is this I'mma have to read through", but "holy cow how did this utter horror end up in my channel get that out of here".
[03:40] <arraybolt3[m]> Thankfully it's rare, but when it just gets missed entirely, it's sad.
[03:44] <guiverc[m]> Before I make a decision & kick a user (note: nor IRC), I want to ensure I'm not missing anything, ie. I read back further than just the current few mins/session & look for prior clues...  The last thing I want to do is make a premature/incorrect 'kick' type of action, so I can understand 'slow' reactions to ops calls.  my reaction anyway; but yes I do see kick worthy actions on occasion, but no-one can be always read to step in &
[03:44] <guiverc[m]> act so I understand volunteer ops being too late..
[03:45] <guiverc[m]> s/always read to/always be ready to/ ^
[03:46] <arraybolt3[m]> That makes sense. But if ops in one channel were ops everywhere, that would allow some things to go better. Case in point, you can see the argument between Eickmeyer and "I am the human 1" in #kubuntu - "I am the human 1" was obviously acting sorely out of line, and Eickmeyer gave him repeated warnings before calling the !ops trigger. If he were an op of #kubuntu (which he rightly should be imo), he could have issued an immediate
[03:46] <arraybolt3[m]> kick at that point.
[03:46] <arraybolt3[m]> Instead, there appears to have been no action taken - "I am the human 1" is still present in the channel, and no kick notices were visible to me.
[03:48] <arraybolt3[m]> (I say he rightly should be since he is an operator of the Telegram part of #kubuntu, not to mention the fact that he's obviously more than trusted and capable enough to do the job.)
[03:56] <guiverc> just fyi arraybolt3[m] , I read back & see one ops call & I'd not have kicked in that situation either; if I was there I'd have something to iamtheh..1 & cooled sitation, but if I'm looking at correct event (it's not a single event from what I read) I'd not have gone beyond saying something trying to calm it....  (thankfully I'm not an OP so it's not my decision, my headache!)
[03:57] <arraybolt3[m]> Hmm, maybe I'm overreactive then. I look at that conversation and I would have kicked the guy after his very first post.
[03:57] <arraybolt3[m]> (Then again, I also saw him having previously misbehaved in #ubuntustudio so I was already prepped for trouble from him.)
[03:57] <guiverc> s/have something/have said something/   ^ my usual brain-fart typos as always
[03:58] <arraybolt3[m]> In my experience, people that come in swinging generally don't stop unless you make them stop. One swift temporary ban might be enough to get someone back in line, but I've never seen it work to just talk to them. (Then again maybe the conversations are occuring in DMs and I never see them.)
[03:58] <guiverc> yes there I did note from Erich's wording there was ref. to that; but I looked only at what I saw in that incident..   (as I read it without timing visible to those present or who read timestamps etc)
[03:59] <guiverc> Me I'm mostly thankful to OPS who do the job, accept the 'policing' type of role & don't let it go to their heads, try and do what's best for all, esp. the Ubuntu community we all 'love'
[04:03] <arraybolt3[m]> 👍️ No doubt. And I can see... maybe? why someone might not want to block that "I am the human 1" guy (though other members of the chat were even asking for him to get removed at the end there), but I would have kicked him so fast. I guess my personality deals with being called a liar and hater much less than other people.
[04:03] <arraybolt3[m]> (Also, that incident was the least severe of them, so even if this one example isn't a good one, there might still need to be something done.)
[04:04] <arraybolt3[m]> Anyway, just thoughts, I don't want to start an argument, sorry if I'm coming across hostile at all. I'm just still mad after having read the scrollback in #kubuntu LOL
[04:07] <arraybolt3[m]> (Out of curiosity, do multiple !ops calls make a difference? I thought one call was all that was needed, and that repeated calls were just an annoyance even if a user was continuing to misbehave after the first call.)
[04:07] <guiverc> fyi:  I don't & haven't felt any hostility in anything you've said arraybolt3[m], just questions, where I'm giving my thoughts (after the fact, which can differ to those there at the time) etc.
[04:08] <arraybolt3[m]> Thanks.
[04:09] <guiverc> a second ping will of course create more sound/impact on the ops boxes (if they've set it up that way) & increase urgency (my own setup gets louder on subsequent..) but I suspect it may vary on setup of OP & I really don't know
[04:09] <Eickmeyer[m]> First of all, arraybolt3, thanks for wanting to stand-up for me. Since taking on the role of flavor lead in Ubuntu Studio, it was only a matter of time where someone disagreed with me about something or I failed to support something the way they wanted it supported where they personally attacked me. BTW, that wasn't the first time, and it won't be the last.
[04:10] <Eickmeyer[m]> Secondly, I've seen the !op call be very effective, if it's not overused. I used it in -offtopic the other day when someone (who was being rather annoying) used a homophobic slur and was immediatly K-lined (network-wide banned).
[04:12] <arraybolt3[m]> Sometimes it works instantly, but one time someone came in spouting crud that I can't even repeat it was so awful, and it took so long for anything to happen I finally took it all the way to #libera to ask for help since nothing was happening and the chaos being caused was extreme.
[04:12] <arraybolt3[m]> (I think the username was "pitiless" if you want to search the scrollback.)
[04:13] <Eickmeyer[m]> Meh, it's neither here nor there. We can't police everything. The best we can do is deescalate the situation, and if that fails, then there's the kick and banhammers.
[04:14] <Eickmeyer[m]> hggdh did a great job of deescalating the situation in #k earlier today. 
[04:14] <Eickmeyer[m]> I couldn't deescalate it because, well, I was being personally attacked.
[04:14] <Eickmeyer[m]> I was literally the subject of the person's rage.
[04:14] <arraybolt3[m]> I see your point. I saw him keep going for a bit even after the deescalation and thought nothing happened. I figured the guy just pooped out.
[04:17] <Eickmeyer[m]> Now, you and Oskar and everyone else in there saying there was no room for that person talking like that were absolutely right. That person violated the CoC in a big way. Can they redeem themselves? Absolutely. But there's no reason to make the situation potentially worse with a kick and/or ban unless they kept trying to antagonize me or anyone else.
[04:19] <arraybolt3[m]> I see what you're saying. To me, though, having an argument like that happen damages the channel as a whole by causing fear for everyone in the room. So my approach would have been an immediate kick and then I might have, depending on my mood, continued the conversation in private chat. Keep the channel clean and still help deescalate the situation. Now I've never done this before, so I probably should be the one learning, but
[04:19] <arraybolt3[m]> that's how I felt about it.
[04:22] <Eickmeyer[m]> This is why, as channel ops, we deescalate the whole channel by referring to the topic and change the focus back to that. We "move on" and don't discuss what had just happened. If someone wants to discuss it, or if the person wants to discuss the problem further, there's the #ubuntu-ops channel.
[04:22] <arraybolt3[m]> (I guess my personal life is giving me a low tolerance level for some stuff, so I almost certainly am overreacting and ought not be an IRC op 🙃)
[04:22] <Bashing-om> arraybolt3[m]: I have been around for a bit - and to me it is rare that a bad situation does not get handled. 
[04:24] <arraybolt3[m]> I guess I've just had bad luck with my timing then, since I've seen at least two situations go full chaos mode and have gone entirely unhandled for a long time.
[04:24] <Eickmeyer[m]> I was once like you, and to be fair, I have an incredibly low tolerance for stupidity. :)
[04:25] <arraybolt3[m]> (Once with "pitiless", and once with some random racist dude.)
[04:27] <Eickmeyer[m]> Well, racism is definitely not tolerated on the network, and if that's the time you went to #libera, you did the right thing.
[04:28] <arraybolt3[m]> No, I probably should have gone up to #libera with that guy too, but it was with "pitiless" that I went to #libera, the things that he was saying were easily five times worse than racism and nothing was being done. Thankfully one of the staff had the whole conversation in the logs, so he's hopefully been G-lined by now.
[04:30] <arraybolt3[m]> (You can search his username in Matrix and easily find the whole altercation, that's one of the main reasons I thought something might need done.)
[04:32] <Eickmeyer[m]> Not finding anything in Matrix, but I might not have been in the room at the time.
[04:33] <arraybolt3[m]> Well, I guess if it's rare that it happens, and I'm overreacting to the mess from earlier, I probably just have a bad idea. Thanks for bearing with me.
[04:33] <Eickmeyer[m]> No worries. :) Thanks for your concern, too. :)
[04:41] <lotuspsychje> i think the biggest issue is the new kind of trolls bypassing the system, coming in gangs and mixing support questions with trolling so they are harder to catch, it also doesnt matter +R -R anymore neither as they register
[04:43] <lotuspsychje> since we been on libera the ops doing a great job, but it might be indeed a good idea to promote becoming an op (if its needed)
[18:29] <hggdh> leftyfb: appreciate your patience :-)
[18:30] <leftyfb> hggdh: sorry, off day ;)
[18:30] <hggdh> :-D