[03:36] <nhaines> _o/
[09:35] <Fallen> Hey nhaines  :-)
[09:35] <nhaines> Fallen: _o/
[09:57] <nhaines> Fallen: I still love bzr.  This adequately describes my relationship with git: https://xkcd.com/1597/
[10:00]  * alkisg moved on from bzr to git around 5 years ago, and hasn't looked back
[10:01] <lotuspsychje> good noon to all
[10:07] <alkisg> 🌞
[10:09] <lotuspsychje> ostend: ⛅️  +21°C
[12:00] <Fallen> good afternoon everyone :)
[12:08] <Fallen> I've put together a doc on getting a discourse frontend up for community documentation which I will be sending to the web & design team. I'm hoping this is a simple thing to do and they can hopefully take care in a week or two. https://docs.google.com/document/d/e/2PACX-1vQ_ujI08zRK4lKOlstf6kh2_ceL9C3hdfzfyS192C0y2YpPQEBAQ_XoCYPnoYx3k2xOKIJLRVDWdj-o/pub
[12:13] <Fallen> I'm especially interested in feedback from the community council, I've heard from a few of you on this already and it looks like I can go ahead with this. Let me know if you feel otherwise.
[12:13] <Fallen> If you need an example on how this will look, here is an example: https://anbox-cloud.io/docs . Click on "Help improve this document in the forum" to see how this leads back to discourse.
[12:20] <lotuspsychje> hey there Fallen 
[12:47] <Fallen> nhaines: I am a big mercurial fan, though I've gotten used to git because it is more accessible these days. It seemed much easier to do parallel work on mercurial instead of dealing with merges, branches and stacks.
[13:14] <Fallen> canonical folks: for the jira board I've noticed you can also create Tasks in the "Plan" view, you just need to click New Issue > Story first, and then you'll get an inline editor where you can also change to a Task. This might save you the effort of going to the basic roadmap view.
[13:15] <Fallen> I've created an epic for the documentation project based on the tentative timeline
[13:52] <Fallen> madhens: I've also created one for the wallpaper contest and made a few wild guesses at timeline. Feel free to adjust those to your needs.
[14:10] <Fallen> Does anyone have a tip on what corner of the community to look in to find contributors most likely to be interested in improving community documentation? Looking for a mix of existing community knowledge and technical writing skills.
[14:22] <lotuspsychje> Fallen: right now there are several volunteers editing the ubuntu wiki's on their own, based on their interests (on bottom with nickname + date last edited)
[14:33] <Fallen> That is a good point, maybe I can get someone with DB access to give me a list of most active contributors to the wiki.
[14:34] <Fallen> jbicha: Hey, welcome :) I'm not sure if someone else has already reached out, but I believe you were at debconf, yes? It would be great to do an event report that we could post on discourse, or at least the warthogs list. Would you be willing to coordinate putting one together? 
[15:53] <tomreyn> Fallen: do you know (/ are you the right person to approach with this question) whether there are plans to fix https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/snapd/+bug/1970066 for the delayed 22.04.1? it does seem undesirable to have a GUI selectable desktop installer option cause the freshly installed system to commit suicide after .1
[15:55] <jbicha> Fallen: I've reached out to the other Canonical attendees now. We'll put together an internal report; don't know if we'll do a discourse version this time
 "Does anyone have a tip on what..." <- I do not currently have Ubuntu Wiki Editor access, but I've written four documentation pieces for the Lubuntu Discourse Documentation section. They're not quite at the level of technical writing, but I can fix that I believe.
[16:01] <arraybolt3[m]> (Also Chris Guiver [guiverc] is working on getting me Ubuntu Wiki Editor access, and I'll get the access once I become Lubuntu Member here in a few months if all else fails.)
[16:01] <arraybolt3[m]> (At least I think I will.)
[16:02] <arraybolt3[m]> Fallen: Speaking of which, the way that Lubuntu's Discourse Documentation section is set up might give you some ideas of how Discourse-based docs might work, since we have a system that does just that live and operational already. https://discourse.lubuntu.me/c/documentation/20
[16:23] <tomreyn> regarding the place and form ubuntu community documentation is kept in: i liked the wiki, back when it was generally usable. contributions per year to it seem to have reduced massively over the past years, probably because the community collapsed some years ago for reasons i have not been able to determine exactly, and, morevover, because the wiki was not always (an understatement) usable.
[16:24] <tomreyn> there are many outdated articled on the wiki now, and most likely continuing to use moin moin is not sustainable. i'm not sure that a primarily forum software is the right tool to keep documentation, but it can certainly work, as has been shown.
[16:25] <tomreyn> and if this way of storing the information is not going to prevent it being moved elsewhere when the time comes, then why not.
[16:25] <alkisg> Personally I found the same issue with the wiki as with the packages and launchpad: no concept of who maintains what and where
[16:25] <tomreyn> the more difficult part to answer will be how and, moreover, who will ensure the still relevant part of existing documentation will be migrated
[16:26] <alkisg> E.g. one starts a wiki page, then abandons it and it doesn't ever get removed. People don't know where to contact the author (irc/forums) etc
[16:26] <alkisg> Discourse does seem like a nice approach
[16:26] <arraybolt3[m]> Can I just pitch in with the wild idea of setting up a MediaWiki instance?
[16:26] <arraybolt3[m]> That's what Arch Linux does.
[16:27] <arraybolt3[m]> And we know that works well (cough, cough, Wikipedia)
[17:12] <Fallen> Part of the problem with MoinWiki is performance on the infra we have. I'd like to avoid yet another platform in the mix, and discourse is something we have that performs better. Not to say it will be the last docs platform we ever use, but it is what we have now. I think what is arguably more important is the content itself, and less fragmentation.
[17:12] <Fallen> Alan did a nice post on wikis a while back, I'll dig it out later
[17:14] <arraybolt3[m]> And I suppose with a pinned post and a system of links we can probably achieve wiki-style navigation abilities even on Discourse.
[17:15] <arraybolt3[m]> (I mean, a Wiki is just text with pictures and a bunch of links for navigation, and Discourse can do that just fine.)
[17:16] <arraybolt3[m]> (This has been the latest episode of Aaron Grossly Oversimplifies Things. Come back next week for my comprehensive 15-second dissertation on Quantum Physics.)
[17:46] <lotuspsychje> there's indeed a lot of wikis out there outdated, lost in space, and also still used information and triggered by the ubottu factoids
[17:47] <lotuspsychje> i think one part of the the problem, is things are changing so fast its rather hard to keep everything up to date
[17:49] <arraybolt3[m]> One thing I noticed (from an ancient post on DIscourse guiverc pulled up once) was that at one point spammers were wreaking havoc on the Wiki, and so they had to make it more difficult to get access to it to avoid that. Maybe we should have a "Wiki Staging" area where anyone can upload guides or suggested changes, and then people with official Wiki access can apply or reject changes as needed?
[17:50] <lotuspsychje> thats a good idea arraybolt3[m] 
[17:51] <lotuspsychje> but the changes might not get changed as fast as the wishes
[17:53] <lotuspsychje> keeping wiki's up to date is like a fulltime job
[17:53] <lotuspsychje> so volunteers do it when they feel for it
[19:04] <Fallen> Reviewing changes spam bots stage might be a full time job as well :-) I think we can make the process of getting wiki edit rights easier to understand though.
[19:04] <Fallen> https://popey.com/blog/2021/03/ubuntu-wiki-reboot/
[19:06] <Fallen> arraybolt3: you are a wiki editor now :)
[19:06] <Fallen> Good luck trying to log in 🤞
[19:08] <tomreyn> discourse has a good user onboarding / enabling process. and that can be extended by enabling write access to subsections of the 'board', if it also handles automated user registrations and spammy users well, then i don't see why you couldn't use this onboarding mechanism to grant every user community documentation edit access automatically based on some factors.
[19:09] <Fallen> Yeah, discourse wiki pages follow this model, you can't edit wiki posts without a specific trust level
[19:10] <tomreyn> i guess my point is about lowering the barrier while also reducing maintenance efforts
[19:11] <Fallen> Absolutely agree with your point!
[19:12] <hggdh> yes indeed, we moved to require membership on a special team -- the Wiki editors, IIRC-- due to spam. I am not sure anymore when this happened, but it was more than 10 years ago
[19:12] <hggdh> I might even still have the IRC logs on that, but frankly not worth changing
[19:13] <hggdh> s/changing/searching/
 "arraybolt3: you are a wiki..." <- Wow, thanks!
[19:23] <Fallen> tomreyn: I saw your message, I don't have a good answer yet though. I'm not aware if this is on any team's radar.
[19:24] <arraybolt3[m]> Hmm. About that luck with login in...
[19:24] <arraybolt3[m]> oh hey it did it!
[19:24] <Fallen> Wow, be sure to get a lottery ticket!
[19:25] <arraybolt3[m]> Took a couple tries but it worked! I wonder what's with it that it's glitchy sometimes.
[19:25] <Fallen> Performance issues with the infra, timeouts somewhere.
[19:25] <tomreyn> Fallen: about the bug report? thanks for your feedback. normally, seb does a good job at identifying and qualifying critical bugs. but even then, some critical bugs to the user experience tend to fall off the radar too often, i feel. but then, this may be easily said by someone who doesn't have the full picture on what the list of open tasks, sorted by priority, is.
[19:26] <Fallen> Maybe worth reaching out to seb?
[19:27] <tomreyn> i could, but i dislike the idea of bugging dev's individually, there should be a functioning process not requiring such to take place.
[19:28] <tomreyn> when i heard about your new position, i was hoping this could be the missing link between "hey, we have had the same bug reported about the ubuntu installer for the past ten years, could this be fixed sometime?" and "oh, i need to take on this new critical bug today"
[19:29] <tomreyn> the first person being an IRC supporter, the second being a developer
[19:30] <tomreyn> because there are those bugs, and it's just sad to see people running into them all the time
[19:31] <tomreyn> but then i'm not sure that's part of your position really.
[19:32] <Fallen> There are a few related things on my roadmap regarding that, I'll share more soon. Effective triage might be the answer, and if things are not effective today, then I can work with teams to fine tune their feedback loops.
[19:33] <tomreyn> ❤️
[19:34] <arraybolt3[m]> Hey, on the topic of wikis, maybe we can merge help.ubuntu.com and wiki.ubuntu.com into the same thing, since I only managed to sign into the latter and now the former is giving me a run for my money 🙃
[19:34] <arraybolt3[m]> Ah, got it. Woot!
[19:36] <arraybolt3[m]> (Also if we need help porting the Wiki from one platform to another and it ends up being a manual task, I can at least try to help with that - I'm good with Markdown, which Discourse at least appears to support.)
[19:37] <Fallen> So much appreciate the support! This is starting to shape up :-)
[19:37] <Fallen> I'm going to mostly head out, getting late over here. Thank you all for today!
[19:38] <tomreyn> schönen feierabend!