[00:40] -queuebot:#lubuntu-devel- New binary: lubuntu-installer-prompt [riscv64] (kinetic-proposed/universe) [0.2.0-0ubuntu1] (no packageset)
[00:43] <arraybolt3[m]> Simon Quigley: At the suggestion of vorlon on #ubuntu-devel, I've made a modified version of lubuntu-installer-prompt that installs to and works from /usr/libexec rather than /usr/bin. Is this a change you'd be interested in integrating? If so, I'll submit a PR with the changes.
[00:43] <arraybolt3[m]> (I also have some packaging changes that go with.)
[00:57] <Eickmeyer[m]> Dovetailing on that, does vorlon understand the rationale that went into the decision to use calamares instead of collaborating on ubiquity? Because, to me, it does seem to be a worthwhile discussion.
[01:00] <arraybolt3[m]> Eickmeyer: I'm not even sure what the rationale is, I just know that it is, so...
[01:00] <arraybolt3[m]> But you went for Calamares, so you probably understand the "why" very well. For me I'd go with Calamares just out of preference since I'm more familiar with it.
[01:01] <arraybolt3[m]> I remember something about feature-richness being a problem, that's it.
[01:01] <Eickmeyer[m]> I understand the why for Ubuntu Studio. The overarching "why" is probably more multifaceted than that.
[01:01] <Eickmeyer[m]> To be honest, Ubiquity is more feature-rich and better integrated in the overall Ubuntu ecosystem.
 I think I remember stuff of like kde version of ubquity pulling in a ton of stuff making a preetty big iso even bigger
[01:03] <Eickmeyer[m]> @lynorian Not really. It's really just a qt frontend, no kde deps at all. The biggest problem I had was that it's hard-coded to Kubuntu and any changes had to go through Foundations, which meant a lot of waiting for weeks for a small change to get through.
[01:04] <tsimonq2> Eickmeyer[m]: Well, one of our long-term goals is to fix that 
[01:04] <tsimonq2> Calamares is faster and has much cleaner code 
[01:04] <tsimonq2> And very well tested heh
[01:05] <Eickmeyer[m]> Simon Quigley: You're not going to get an argument from me, but it seems like we've got a bit of a community rift, which is very problematic from where I sit as you can imagine.
[01:05] <tsimonq2> Respectfully, I... don't care. Technically it's a sound decision
[01:06] <tsimonq2> I don't care if I have to become the damn upstream maintainer myself :P
[01:07] <kc2bez[m]> I don't see how it can be a rift when ubiquity itself is planned to be sunset.
[01:08] <Eickmeyer[m]> Dan Simmons: Because, from a community standpoint, collaboration should be tried first. So, I can see where vorlon's viewpoint is coming from.
[01:10] <Eickmeyer[m]> But, remember, I'm just playing devil's advocate here. It's a worthwhile discussion to have. I don't want to be argumentative for the sake of argument.
[01:10] <arraybolt3[m]> I remember trying to configure Ubiquity to try to fix a bug, I couldn't even find the config files, I couldn't understand the logs, it was a mess.
[01:11] <Eickmeyer[m]> Ubiquity is what happens when you add-on to something and then add-on to it and add-on to that. It's a mess. I agree. It's like most of America's airport terminals.
[01:12] <Eickmeyer[m]> It wasn't exactly built to be scalable, yet, here we are.
[01:12] <arraybolt3[m]> Though TBH that's what tons of stuff in Linux is. I mean, that's what APT seems like to me. It's slick to the user and a mind-shattering mess to the developer (at least it was to me :D).
[01:12] <Eickmeyer[m]> There's a reason it's being actively replaced, but in the meantime, it has to be maintained.
[01:14] <Eickmeyer[m]> In my dayjob, I've had to become fairly intimate with it in order to debug it.
[01:14] <arraybolt3[m]> (For the record I like APT and love packaging, but wow was it hard to learn and the docs were a disaster. Thankfully Simon Quigley was willing to basically spoon-feed me through the process until I was able to wrangle it somewhat well.)
 "Dan Simmons: Because, from a..." <- I can see that point. I think the thing I see is that we are 4 years in with Calamares at this point,  switching back to ubiquity seems counter productive. 
[01:15] <Eickmeyer[m]> kc2bez[m]: I'm not advocating that at all, and neither is he.
[01:15] <Eickmeyer[m]> I think he's a little "hurt" for lack of a better term?
[01:17] <kc2bez[m]> If we were to try to switch to anything I would think the flutter installer would be the choice. I  don't see that as ready yet and flavor modifications seem to be a little further out.
[01:17] <kc2bez[m]> And that is only if we chose that.
[01:17] <Eickmeyer[m]> No, the flutter installer (code-named Canary, I believe) is far from ready.
[01:17] <arraybolt3[m]> kc2bez[m]: There's the problem. If we don't have general-purpose use (like flavor modifications) as part of the goal from the word "Go", I think we're going to get a mess.
[01:18] <arraybolt3[m]> Calamares was designed to be distro-agnostic from square 1, and so far it's working fantastic. Ubiquity wasn't so much AFAICT.
[01:18] <Eickmeyer[m]> arraybolt3[m]: I have on good word from Ken VanDine that flavor customization is one of the major goals.
[01:18] <arraybolt3[m]> OK, then that seems like a good thing.
[01:19] <arraybolt3[m]> It would also be nice if we could come up with an installer that was robust. Ubiquity and Calamares both are fragile - mess around too much and the thing crashes or things go wrong.
[01:20] <arraybolt3[m]> Hopefully Flutter will be able to withstand a user who keeps going back and then forward again.
[01:20] <Eickmeyer[m]> arraybolt3[m]: Ubiquity was, and wasn't. It was designed for Ubuntu and Kubuntu, the only two flavors at the time (both equally and commercially supported by Canonical at the time).
[01:21] <Eickmeyer[m]> arraybolt3[m]: Flutter is the language it's being written in. I believe the working name is Canary right now.
[01:21] <arraybolt3[m]> Right, forgot what the name was.
[01:21] <arraybolt3[m]> And I missed where you said it earlier.
[01:22] <arraybolt3[m]> Simon Quigley: Also, while we're on the topic, is that change to /usr/libexec a welcome change? I only have a few more minutes for today, so if I'm going to publish it and submit the PR I should probably know now.
[01:29] <arraybolt3[m]> Simon Quigley: OK, I submitted the PR, feel free to reject it if that's not what you want to do.
[01:30] <arraybolt3[m]> I'll tackle the packaging change (removing the missing manpage overrides) tomorrow, I'm out of time for now.
[01:30] <arraybolt3[m]> Thanks for everything, and I'll probably see you guys tomorrow night!
[01:30] <arraybolt3[m]> PR link: https://github.com/lubuntu-team/installer-prompt/pull/2
[18:26] <LeoK[m]> Signing off until AM..