[02:47] <lotuspsychje> good morning
[12:07] <jailbreak> Afternoon 😀☺️
[12:35] <wez> Evening
[12:38] <jailbreak> Afternoon, yes. 
[12:39] <wez> evening indeed
[12:43] <jailbreak> No. 
[12:44] <jailbreak> Anyway 😛😜
[12:44] <jailbreak> I'm hungry 😭 been awake since 4am and it's 2pm now. 
[12:47] <jailbreak> Oops. Bye 👋😎
[13:31] <arraybolt3[m]> Morning!
[13:55] <webchat78> Can i run a vm without hardware virtualization
[13:56] <webchat78> I have an 8 core cpu with 4 gb ram
[13:56] <murmel> webchat78: yes. but don't expect any performance
[13:56] <webchat78> Like what
[13:56] <murmel> slow as molasses
[13:56] <murmel> you can just try it ;)
[13:57] <webchat78> Can i allocate 4 cpus to my vm
[13:57] <murmel> sure
[13:57] <webchat78> Can i allocate 2 gb ram
[13:57] <murmel> as long as the number is smaller than what you actually have on the host
[13:58] <webchat78> I have 4 gb on my host
[13:58] <webchat78> Can i use KVM
[13:58] <murmel> yes
[13:59] <murmel> you can also use 128 megs in your vm, if the OS runs :P
[13:59] <webchat78> With
[13:59] <murmel> with?
[13:59] <webchat78> Can i use kvm
[13:59] <webchat78> Without hardware virtualization
[14:00] <arraybolt3> murmel: I don't think all of what you're saying is accurate.
[14:00] <arraybolt3> webchat78: Without hardware virtualization, the /dev/kvm device will not exist, so no, KVM won't work.
[14:00] <webchat78> Then what can I use
[14:00] <arraybolt3> KVM is the accelerator, QEMU is the emulator. KVM absolutely depends on hardware virtualization. QEMU does not.
[14:01] <arraybolt3> You *can* try to use QEMU all by itself, but the performance is going to be so absolutely horrible that it probably won't be worth using.
[14:01] <arraybolt3> How old is your hardware? Chances are, if you can run Ubuntu at all, hardware virtualization can be enabled.
[14:01] <webchat78> So what can I select instead of kvm
[14:01] <murmel> arraybolt3: ahh you are right. kvm is definitely the accelerator
[14:02] <webchat78> When using qemu
[14:02] <arraybolt3> webchat78: You *might* be able to use Xen, depending on your use case.
[14:02] <webchat78> On qemu right
[14:03] <arraybolt3> webchat78: If you only intend on running Linux in your VMs, Xen can run paravirtualized VMs without hardware virt, and you can use it with QEMU as well.
[14:03] <arraybolt3> (Note that I've never done this, so YMMV.)
[14:03] <webchat78> Ok
[14:04] <webchat78> Here's another question not related to the first one
[14:04] <webchat78> Can i run Ubuntu Armin an android phone
[14:04] <murmel> very unlikely
[14:04] <webchat78> ARM*
[14:05] <arraybolt3> webchat78: Ubuntu Touch does exist as a mobile OS for phones, but it only works on very specific phones.
[14:05] <murmel> as the kernels on android are heavily patched so that no mainline kernel works (as the drivers are blobs)
[14:05] <arraybolt3> webchat78: If you want to run Linux on your phone, I'd look into the Termux app.
[14:05] <webchat78> What about Ubuntu server ARM
[14:06] <arraybolt3> webchat78: Probably not.
[14:06] <webchat78> And why is that isn't it ARM based
[14:08] <arraybolt3> webchat78: Well, it's a long story. Short version, the world of ARM systems is very fragmented. You don't just have the CPU compatibility to deal with, you have all the little details of how the system works, how it boots, what weird hardware is included, etc. to deal with.
[14:08] <arraybolt3> webchat78: PCs are far more standardized and so most any PC will run Linux, but phones and other ARM devices, not so much so.
[14:09] <webchat78> So is it better to buy a pc
[14:09] <murmel> yes
[14:09] <arraybolt3> If you want to run Linux on your hardware, yes.
[14:09] <webchat78> Ok thanks
[14:09] <arraybolt3> If you are OK with a somewhat limited Linux container, though, you *can* run Linux... kinda... on Android using Termux.
[14:10] <webchat78> No I will buy a pc
[14:10] <murmel> arraybolt3: he, this kinda reminds me of linux on iPhones (vm)
[14:10] <arraybolt3> murmel: They did that? Hmph, TIL!
[14:10] <murmel> arraybolt3: ishell if I remember correctly, alpine linux
[14:10] <murmel> ahh iSH 
[14:11] <murmel> it's emulating a x86 device afair
[14:11]  * arraybolt3 shudders at the thought of how bad that must perform
[14:12] <murmel> arraybolt3: on my 6 it was running fine. you can even do X stuff
[14:12] <arraybolt3> Termux didn't bother with virtualization at all, it was just a chroot-ish thing.
[14:12] <murmel> oh 6S orry
[14:13] <murmel> arraybolt3: yeah the dev went x86 as it was running the same speed as arm64
[14:13] <arraybolt3> Odd. I wonder if that had something to do with Apple Silicon's fancy design, sorta like how Rosetta 2 can run x86 apps on Apple Silicon (ARM) almost as fast or maybe even faster than x86 could.
[14:14] <murmel> iphone 6S? I think that's too early for rosetta hw stuff
[14:14] <arraybolt3> Well, right, but I mean, maybe Apple was doing things back then that made x86 just as fast, because I can't fathom... oh wait, he probably wasn't using hardware virtualization on ARM with the ARM version...
[14:14] <arraybolt3> Nevermind, I'm probably totally off track.
[14:15] <murmel> yeah I assume he has to virtualize as nothing else would work (like a chroot or so)
[14:16] <murmel> I can still remember back in the day he had to include a small repo in the app as apple had to verify everything that you could also install in the linux OS. but nowadays it's shipping with the official repos
[14:16] <arraybolt3> Maybe it would have worked if he had containerized NetBSD instead?
[14:16] <arraybolt3> (With a container I mean)
[14:16] <murmel> I mean changing a text file is "hard"
[14:16] <murmel> arraybolt3: I wonder, as I assume the sandbox will definitely interfere
[14:17] <arraybolt3> Well the iPhone apps have to talk to the rest of iOS somehow.
[14:17] <murmel> sure
[14:17] <murmel> but not hw virtualization ;)
[14:17] <arraybolt3> And IIUC iOS is a BSD derivative.
[14:17] <arraybolt3> murmel: Right, I meant containerization (chroot).
[14:17] <murmel> arraybolt3: way less than you think
[14:17] <murmel> as it's still based on the mach kernel, but freebsd userspace
[14:18] <arraybolt3> So, like, containerizing Linux on iOS might not work, but NetBSD might have worked. I mean, people can run OpenSSH on a jailbroken iPhone I believe.
[14:18] <murmel> yes
[14:18] <murmel> did that back in the day
[14:19] <murmel> arraybolt3: but that was the linux version
[14:19] <murmel> he I mean the dev used apt xD
[14:19] <arraybolt3> murmel: o_O Not the BSD version?
[14:19] <murmel> ^
[14:19] <murmel> no
[14:19] <arraybolt3> Wait, I'm getting confused, the Linux version of OpenBSD was running on a jailbroken iPhone?
[14:20] <murmel> oO? openssh not openbsd
[14:20] <arraybolt3> Right, sorry, typo.
[14:20] <murmel> but yes
[14:20]  * arraybolt3 throws away everything I thought I knew about the guts of Apple hardware
[14:20] <arraybolt3> That sounds as silly as saying that someone managed to get a DOS app that was originally written for OS/2 running on Windows 11.
[14:21] <murmel> arraybolt3: I mean apple even supports the asahi team from the background (because of antitrust reason imo)
[14:22] <arraybolt3> s/hardware/software/
[14:22] <arraybolt3> (Wow, let's see how many other things I can misphrase or typo this late/early. I've not gone to bed yet, I should probably do that.)
[14:22] <murmel> arraybolt3: aus?
[14:22] <arraybolt3> Nope, US night owl.
[14:23] <murmel> ahh
[14:23] <arraybolt3> I'm usually awake at the same time as Austraila, though :P
[14:23] <murmel> so not working for a aus company xD?
[14:23] <arraybolt3> LOL no.
[14:23] <murmel> man, why does compiling take that much time :(
[14:24] <arraybolt3> murmel: What's your hardware?
[14:24] <murmel> i7 8650U :(
[14:24] <arraybolt3> Man, what are you compiling o_O
[14:24] <murmel> binutils
[14:24] <arraybolt3> I'm able to build Calamares in about 20 minutes on my 3rd gen Core i5.
[14:25] <murmel> no idea about calamares
[14:26] <murmel> arraybolt3: but idk enough about disabling other arches, so it compiles also cross compilation debs
[14:37] <murmel> arraybolt3: https://github.com/ish-app/ish for your interest :P
[14:38] <arraybolt3> murmel: Cool! I don't have any Apple devices, but that still looks neat.
[14:38] <arraybolt3> LOL "Long-term exposure to this code may cause loss of sanity, nightmares about GAS macros and linker errors, or any number of other debilitating side effects. This code is known to the State of California to cause cancer, birth defects, and reproductive harm."
[14:39] <murmel> I mean you don't mess with the state of california
[14:39] <arraybolt3> I see he used a special trick to avoid pure emulation, that explains why it's bearably fast. Nice!
[15:02] <murmel> just why oh why has the a380 an extra power connector :(
[15:02] <Jeremy31> The Airbus A380?
[15:03] <murmel> Jeremy31: YES! https://www.phoronix.com/review/intel-arc-a380-linux
[15:06] <murmel> why didn't michael add performace/dollar as intel was always pointing out that it will be a steal for the performance (so they get a bigger market share)