[03:35] <arraybolt3> So, I had an idea a bit ago that you guys might find useful. What if we were to create a Launchpad project/team/whatever-you-call-it-that-you-can-file-bugs-against so that when people run into outdated Wiki content, they can report it? That might make it easier to update everything, rather than trying to search the Wiki for outdated content to fix.
[03:38] <arraybolt3> Or maybe we could use a Discourse post to do the same thing to make the barrier for outdated info reports lower.
[09:29] <lotuspsychje> arraybolt3[m]: i like that idea of gathering outdated wiki's but i think the real culprit is finding more people to maintain then/ hence why they are so outdated?
[09:30] <lotuspsychje> i would rather choose a todolist then on LP for such
[09:31] <lotuspsychje> maybe indeed if we had a centralized place to look, more users would be motivated to edit them
[09:38] <lotuspsychje> another think to think about is, things change so fast its gonna need a lot of follow-up edits too
[09:51] <Fallen> I think if we are more deliberate where things currently on the wiki area meant to be then we can be more successful in finding maintainers. Documentation on how to get started on a specific project needs to go onto that specific project's page/sources. Community Governance docs are probably easier to maintain with an active community and councils.  
[09:52] <Fallen> I like the idea of a LP with documentation improvements. I'll run this by Daniele to see what he thinks. While the topic is hot, I'd like to start putting in some effort this week to outline what a community documentation team might look like, how we can build the incentives, and maybe even get a few docs updated.
[09:56] <lotuspsychje> maybe ask around if there's a trick to list last edited wiki's or oldest edited, might be useful, something like bashing-om found
 Fallen: Reading yesterday's log - IRT available docs. Are you aware of https://help.ubuntu.com/community/PopularPages ?
[09:58] <lotuspsychje> another source is ubottu's brain to checkup on most used wiki's in the ubuntu support channels; <ubottu> Hi! I'm ubottu's favorite infobot. You can search my brain at https://ubottu.com/factoids.cgi
[10:08] <Fallen> I'm aware of the PopularPages page, thank you! My focus right now is more on wiki.ubuntu.com, and I have ways to get the most visited pages which I might use as a basis.
[10:09] <Fallen> Having a sort of leaderboard with people most editing the wiki is something I'd like to get going as well.
[10:15] <lotuspsychje> isnt there a channel on irc with wiki editors?
[10:22] <Fallen> #ubuntu-doc is the closest
[10:52] <Fallen> jose toddy nhaines Eickmeyer teward: I wanted to check in, how are things going with setting up a regular Community Council meeting again? It would be great for you all to have a regular touchpoint and something more visible on the outside.
[13:54] <arraybolt3[m]> Fallen: I like the idea of trying to organize the Wiki better. As it is, if you just visit the Wiki... you can't find pretty much anything with links on the home page, and the search feature is really garbage IMO. Most of the time I find Wiki data, it's from a Google search.
[13:55] <ravage> a good internal search seems to very hard to do
[13:55] <ravage> that is the case for most websites
[13:55] <ravage> google even offers that for your own website. that says a lot :)
[13:56] <arraybolt3[m]> What's funny is I've noticed the "Powered by Google" searches aren't always all that good either :)
[13:57] <arraybolt3[m]> I think the problem is that wiki.ubuntu.com has become part documentation, part hodge-podge where people put stuff like membership applications and whatnot. It's got good info but it's glommed together/
[13:58] <arraybolt3[m]> The Arch Wiki seems to have an amazing internal search, if you hit an exact (or possibly even close to exact) match, it just takes you directly to the relevant docs.
[13:58] <arraybolt3[m]> Also having help.ubuntu.com and wiki.ubuntu.com adds further to the confusion.
[13:58] <ravage> yep. one of those should go
[13:59] <ravage> you can easily trasfer that desktop guide to the wiki
[13:59] <arraybolt3[m]> Plus, sometimes the docs make interesting assumptions about what the user will and won't want to do, like I think the default install guide is geared towards Windows dual-boot.
[13:59] <arraybolt3[m]> ?
[13:59] <ravage> and then there is also https://docs.ubuntu.com/
[13:59] <arraybolt3[m]> ...well I understand why that one exists, but...
[14:01] <arraybolt3[m]> And I think this is the core of our problem: "This user-created and maintained wiki is a reference for various Ubuntu-related Howto's, tips, tricks and hacks." (From https://help.ubuntu.com/community/CommunityHelpWiki) It's designed to be somewhat of a mishmash from the word "go" AFAICT.
[14:02] <arraybolt3[m]> I think we were talking about trying to migrate the community Wiki to Discourse? That would give us the opportunity to do a total and complete rebuild and maybe even rewrite a lot of this stuff.
[14:03] <ravage> both is fine with me. but before thats decided i will not put work in any of those :)
[14:04] <arraybolt3> So now all I did was end up making a bunch of noise when we already have a plan. OK, /me is going to leave now :facepalm:
[14:14] <arraybolt3[m]> Though actually, better organization in a migration to Discourse, and a way to report outdated content, might go well together (which I think is what ravage was saying). That way we'll naturally be able to keep the Wiki updated more easily, and anything that slips through the cracks will be brought to our attention. And I think Discourse even orders things by date last modified, making it easy to tell when something may
[14:14] <arraybolt3[m]> have been left too long.
[15:04] <Fallen> Well, "plan" might be overstating it. We have a strategy and ways to execute it, but what is missing is a concrete plan on how to approach it. I generally would like to: 1) move community governance docs to a new discourse docs frontend 2) Move getting started documentation out into the respective projects or delete it.
[15:06] <Fallen> Migration will certainly mean thinking about what pages are still relevant, and if there are some immediate improvements that can be made. Looking at Diataxis however, we want to avoid spending too much effort thinking about what the perfect content might be when migrating pages. Gradual improvements :)
[15:06] <Fallen> I'm going to put some general thoughts/framework together in a doc, and then maybe we can use #ubuntu-doc to build on that.
[15:08] <Fallen> In the meanwhile, please feel free to continue brainstorming and thinking about how we can use documentation to lower the barrier of entry and make sure we are showing a clear path from contribution to community advocacy on the various portals.
[15:08] <Fallen> I'll share more about the strategy on discourse soon, I'm working on getting a video together that explains it.
[17:24] <arraybolt3[m]> Fallen: Sounds great, I'll be looking out for it, if you can ping me when it's done I'll look at it. (I'm particularly interested in these documentation things since I used to write software documentation in my free time and initially started contributing to Lubuntu and Ubuntu with the goal of being a documentation writer in mind.)
[18:01] <Fallen> arraybolt3: I absolutely will, you are on my shortlist for an early draft :)
[18:03] <arraybolt3[m]> Fallen: Oh also, I got the thumbs-up on the Xubuntu screenshot.
[18:03] <arraybolt3[m]> I'm guessing MATE and Kylin are probably going to come straight to you, so if you'd like me to send you the screenshots I have, I'd be happy to whenever you're ready. Or if MATE and Kylin are coming to me, I'll wait until I have them.
[18:05] <Fallen> Send me what you have on Wednesday and we'll see from there. My understanding was they'd both reply to you, if you want to follow up yourself please feel free :)
[18:06] <arraybolt3[m]> 👍️ Will do!
[19:32] <teward> Fallen: alive?
[19:32] <teward> i need you to bring a force to bear on one of the Canonical teams
[19:32] <teward> ... and then I need to talk to you privately ASAP regarding a current issue
[21:37] <Fallen> teward: Heading to bed. Email me and I'll check tomorrow morning? Or asap as in cannot wait until tomorrow?
[21:37] <teward> Fallen: ASAP as in wake up.  Your email got lost when my old system died, resend me your email
[21:37] <teward> s/wake up/when you wake up/
[21:40] <Fallen> ￼sent via dm, will check it out. See you then!