[02:01] <lotuspsychje> good morning
[02:38] <murmel> lotuspsychje: morning :)
[04:53] <rs2009> good morning (woke up really late today, but had a good sleep)
[05:02] <arraybolt3[m]> rs2009: 👋
[05:04] <rs2009> hey arraybolt3[m] :) was wondering if I need to share a screenshot of Ubuntu Unity since we're now a daily flavor
[05:04] <arraybolt3[m]> rs2009: o_O You got approved?!
[05:04] <arraybolt3[m]> \o/
[05:05] <arraybolt3[m]> rs2009: I'd probably ask Fallen about that, since he's the guy in charge of that sort of thing IIUC. Also, congrats!
[05:05] <rs2009> arraybolt3[m]: we actually got approved a daily flavor :) becoming an official recognized flavor depends on whether we can release the Beta ISO though
[05:05] <rs2009> s/approved/approved as/g
[05:06] <arraybolt3[m]> rs2009: Probably intensive testing will do for making the beta happen, right?
[05:06] <guiverc[m]> Well done rs2009 for you & your Ubuntu Unity team !
[05:07] <rs2009> arraybolt3[m]: yep, and we just need to get a few of the Ubuntu Unity packages uploaded (which I'll do today), so we should be able to release the beta ISO without any problems
[05:07] <rs2009> thanks guiverc[m] :)
[05:08] <rs2009> (also, I gotta switch to using Element/Matrix instead of TheLounge for IRC)
[05:08] <arraybolt3[m]> rs2009: Sounds like a plan! (And wow, that was fast. Seemed like one day it was a rumor that Unity might be becoming an official flavor, then the next day you were in applying for it and now today you got it.)
[05:11] <guiverc[m]> rs2009: do you have the ML link/url on the decision (handy)... we maybe able to use it for UWN/Ubuntu News 🙂
[05:15] <rs2009> guiverc[m]: sure, https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/technical-board/2022-August/002669.html. we're awaiting votes from sil2100, rbasak and cyphermox. vorlon's already added us to the daily flavors though
[05:16] <guiverc> Thanks rs2009 , appreciated & Congratulations again (for you & of course team!)
[05:16] <rs2009> guiverc: tysm :)
[05:17] <guiverc> UWN doesn't publish till early next week anyway... so hopefully it'll be official (all votes +1) by then anyway...
[05:18] <rs2009> 🤞
[06:36] <Fallen> rs2009: Congratulations, I'm happy you are starting to get those +1s! The reason I'm asking for screenshots is for https://ubuntu.com/desktop/flavours which would only be the recognized release flavors, but you might as well get a head start and send me a screenshot, that short 1-2 paragraph description of what makes Ubuntu Unity special, and the three links you see there. I'll DM you my email.
[09:57] <elderbard> hello
[09:58] <elderbard> testing
[10:09] <murmel> !test | elderbard 
[14:34] <JerOfPanic> hi all
[14:34] <JerOfPanic> anyone putting up servers recently?
[14:35] <BayouBilly> my days of putting up database servers  was when nt4 came out....i built an auction server to compete with ebay but i got tired of messing with it
[14:36] <BayouBilly> it was a little more than 20 years ago i used sql server back in those days
[14:38] <BayouBilly> and cold fusion for high capacity traffic
[14:38] <BayouBilly> but that was a long time ago
[14:42] <BayouBilly> i just leave it all to ebay now so i don't have to pay an internet access bill
[14:42] <BayouBilly> for an online server
[14:46] <BayouBilly> and i just use free wifi in various locations these days for free internet with no bills
[14:48] <BayouBilly> and ubuntu and windows 10 do a good job with free wifi
[14:48] <BayouBilly> and this hand me down hardware sells today for only $40. or so on ebay
[14:49] <BayouBilly> the free software and free hardware foundation have done a good job at driving all the prices near zero
[14:50] <BayouBilly> windows 10 pro is down to $16 ..from what used to cost $100 for an operating system
[14:51] <BayouBilly> thanks to the free software and free hardware foundation
[15:13] <JerOfPanic> BayouBilly: namecheap.com 8 core 12 gigs RAM 240 gigs HD costs around 30 euros a month
[15:13] <BayouBilly> even the expensive playstation 2 is down to $107 and included 16 games that once costed $50 each
[15:14] <JerOfPanic> I have 43. day without any tobacco smoke
[15:14] <JerOfPanic> I can code better now
[15:14] <BayouBilly> jerofpanic wow 30 euros a month...that is a lot of money
[15:15] <JerOfPanic> yes
[15:16] <BayouBilly> you can see the playstation2 with a search on ebays search window
[15:16] <BayouBilly> its all thanks to the free software and free hardware foundation putting downward pressure on prices
[15:28] <BayouBilly> you can see the playstatio2 which does not require an monthly internet bill or costly in-game purchases from online gaming selling with 16 stand alone games at this ur
[15:29] <BayouBilly> url https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_trksid=p2334524.m570.l1311&_nkw=playstation+2&_sacat=0&LH_TitleDesc=0&_odkw=computers&_osacat=0
[15:29] <BayouBilly> its way better than the playstation 5 which needs an expensive internet connection and has in-game purchases
[15:31] <BayouBilly> for people that don't want to or can't spend a lot of money
[15:33] <BayouBilly> its all thanks to gnu and the free software and free hardware foundations
[15:49] <BayouBilly> now with free wifi and local hotspots and zoom you don't have to buy an expensive telephone and pay an expensive monthly telephone bill for worldwide web voice communicaitons
[15:49] <BayouBilly> all because the free software and free hardware foundations put downward pressure on prices for the users
[15:53] <BayouBilly> i once asked the kde group how much does the kexi database program cost and they said "nothing it is free"
[19:10] <artemis> hey, new chinese linux deepin release. Jacky chan says its the best linux distrib created and can ubuntu down in 10 seconds.
[19:10] <artemis> +sidekick
[20:47] <ogra> https://www.googlefight.com/ubuntu-vs-deepin.php definitely disagrees ... 
[21:19] <JanC> people who use Deepin probably don't use Google though...
[21:20] <JanC> (in general)
[21:21] <ogra> is there a bauidufight.com ? 🙂
[21:21] <ogra> err
[21:21] <ogra> baidufight ...
[21:29] <JanC> I also wonder how google fight works now that Google & other search engines (almost) insist on returning lots of results even when there are none (or very little)
[21:46] <enigma9o7[m]> only 400 results returned
[21:46] <enigma9o7[m]> even when it says there are more, you can't get more than 400
[21:46] <enigma9o7[m]> they lie with their big number.  its an estimate.
[21:46] <enigma9o7[m]> based on how quickly they found their favorite 400
[22:00] <JanC> enigma9o7[m]: the problem is not when it shows you less than it found, it's when they show you more than there is
[22:01] <JanC> like when there are only 3 results and they bury them somewhere on page 20 & 30 between a whole bunch of inaccurate results
[22:01]  * ogra didnt really care about the datasets ... it just felt appropriate in response to the jackie chan sidekick comment 🙂
[22:03] <JanC> "having" to "quote" "every" "word" to "make" "search" "work" "correctly" is "really" "annoying"
[22:09] <sarnold> +I +hate +that +so +much
[22:10] <sarnold> no worries about "page 20 and 30" http://googlesearchonlyreturns400results.lol/
[22:10] <daftykins> seems like this channel is 'deepin' search engine talk tonight ;)
[22:11] <ogra> so deeep ... 
[22:40] <BayouBilly> well even most search engines are free to use..its all part of the downward price pressure started by the free software and free hardware foundations that want to drive all prices of everything to zero
[22:41] <BayouBilly> and they have driven prices very low already
[22:41] <sarnold> yeah, I think I get seventeen google searches per dollar these days
[22:41] <sarnold> remember when alta vista charged a dollar each? and we were happy for it
[22:42] <BayouBilly> i remember when apple used to charge money for music before all the free options came up
[22:44] <daftykins> * supported by advertising
[22:47] <BayouBilly> well i dont know about advertising..does kde advertise even though they say kexi database costs zero $
[22:47] <ogra> can't be good then ... 
[22:48] <ogra> databases only work properly above a four digit price tag ... 
[22:48] <ogra> ask oracle 
[22:48] <BayouBilly> ogra well before the drive to zero prices people used to say you get what you pay for
[22:48] <ogra> you still do 😉
[22:48] <BayouBilly> ogra oracle is out of my price range budget
[22:49] <ogra> it's hopefully out of everyones one day 🙂
[22:49] <sarnold> except their free cloud tier :)
[22:50] <daftykins> i meant streaming music platforms that are 'free' tend to be ad-supported
[22:50] <daftykins> ah Oracle, i do thank them for the perpetually free tier VPS though
[22:50] <tomreyn> it's the only one that's really free, if you can make it to register. and you get full oracle-style usability.
[22:51] <BayouBilly> well i dont think ads are the goal of the free software and free hardware foundations..i think they are after zero$ prices ad free
[22:53] <BayouBilly> but i noticed kde does accept donations if people want to
[22:55] <daftykins> only today i used that line "you get what you pay for" about Libera when there are netsplits \o/
[22:55] <sarnold> ah, now *there's* good value for your money
[22:55] <sarnold> a hundred lines per dollar
[22:56] <daftykins> i dread to think what my bill is at
[22:56] <BayouBilly> well poor people have to try not to squander their limited dollars on high prices and have to watch every penny like scrooge
[22:57] <tomreyn> does the free heartware foundation also do free transplantations, though?
[22:57] <daftykins> yes they'll have to stop running HA database clusters, silly poor people
[22:58] <BayouBilly> tom...medicine is about big money...govt' funded to keep prices high..it is very costly in this country
[23:00] <BayouBilly> when the government prints money to pay medical bills at any price there is no limit to how much is charged in medicine
[23:02] <BayouBilly> its no accident that Harvard Medical School and Harvard Law School are in the same university.
[23:02] <BayouBilly> they work together to drive medical prices through the roof
[23:02] <daftykins> sorry but i don't think this is the place
[23:02] <tomreyn> i might have brought this slightly off topic - let's get back to quality ubuntu discussions
[23:03] <tomreyn> where i'm sure this thread started
[23:03] <BayouBilly> tom ok tom
[23:12] <tomreyn> so i think canonical should make it transparent which exact code snaps were built from, and how, and provide a way to tell whether this code was published by the original authors of the software, or someone else. also, they should either make it clear what the "verified" (how, what, when, whom) means or not use it at all, since it can provide a false sense of security. there should be visual indications on what the licensing terms of the 
[23:12] <tomreyn> source code it is built from is, and this should be a criteria users can filter by. there should be an indication on how privacy invading or preserving some snap is.
[23:12] <tomreyn> (and this should also be a user selectable filter)
[23:15] <BayouBilly> well most tarball packages of programs include the licensing terms of the author
[23:15] <BayouBilly> you can always get the debian sourcecode which should include the author's desires and intentions
[23:15] <daftykins> and what's relevant about that to snaps?
[23:18] <BayouBilly> the problem is with programs like rosegarden that have many many authors...and they may not agree on desires...but most people use it for free anyway
[23:20] <JanC> verified should also mean it gets prompt security updates, of course  :)
[23:27] <BayouBilly> i remember when the beatles wanted to sell music for money on their albums...before google put remastered beatles songs like Roll over Beethoven on youtube music for free
[23:28] <tomreyn> software that's flagged open source could be required to be tied to an established SaaS build automation service (such as github, gitlab, bitbucket) with public repositories and build scripts, maintained by upstream software authors only. and, since there are automatic upgrades, there should also be automatic software disablement if there were no builds for 1 year, on both the store and users' systems. i guess this would solve a lot of 
[23:28] <tomreyn> problems already.
[23:29] <tomreyn> i don't see how you can enforce or verify prompt security updates (other than that)
[23:29] <BayouBilly> tom well open source like opengl is not free software...they retain ownership and the right to close it and charge money for it anytime they want to
[23:30] <tomreyn> BayouBilly: you are mixing up copyright, trademarks and licensing there, i think.
[23:30] <ogra> tomreyn, "sudo find /snap/*/current/ -name '*snapcraft.yaml*'" ... most snaps ship their full build receipe which shows what sources have been used and what patches have been appiled etc 
[23:31] <sarnold> ogra: hmm, how do we make sure that people who download the binary can get the sources to gpl projects?
[23:31] <BayouBilly> tom..no copyleft gives all the ownership rights to the user whereas opensource protects the author's ownership rights
[23:31] <ogra> sarnold, question for legal i fear 🙂 
[23:32] <ogra> sarnold, the store terms put that responsibility on the uploader i think ... 
[23:32] <BayouBilly> tom open source code never agrees to be free code...silicon graphics isn't going to give up the rights to opengl
[23:33] <BayouBilly> tom and the opensource watcom compiler never gives up its ownership rights either
[23:34] <ogra> sarnold, also, the gpl does not enforce that you make source available "for download", just that you "give the source to someone who asks" ... could be a truck full of punchcards 😉 
[23:35] <BayouBilly> ogra punchcards is funny
[23:35] <sarnold> ogra: "they're machine readable!"
[23:35] <sarnold> ogra: but who wants to store a truck of punchcards for three years? :)
[23:35] <ogra> haha
[23:36] <rfm> under the gpl you can even charge for the service of cutting a tape
[23:36] <tomreyn> ogra: thanks for passing along yet another bit of valuable snap ecosystem information. but... you know.. this is not transparency.
[23:37] <tomreyn> or not the one i'm looking for
[23:37] <tomreyn> i do appreciate you sharing what you know, though, always insightful for me.
[23:53] <JanC> there is some wording about providing the source in usable form IIRC
[23:53] <JanC> or in the way it is preferably used
[23:54] <arraybolt3[m]> "Source code? Sure, here's the source. Red cars represent a 0, blue cars represent a 1. Source code is in UTF-8. Walk the car lot, you'll figure it out."
[23:54] <arraybolt3[m]> "<shouts from afar>: Oh! And the file system is ZFS!"
[23:54] <JanC> so if you don't use punch cards to compile it yourself, you probably can't make that the only way to distribute it
[23:59] <JanC> in fact, GPL3 seems to say that if the object code is available for download, so should be the source code