/srv/irclogs.ubuntu.com/2022/09/19/#ubuntu-meeting.txt

=== ebarretto_ is now known as ebarretto
=== cpaelzer_ is now known as cpaelzer
sil2100o/16:01
sil2100Guess we moved the meeting to 23 my time o/16:03
bdmurrayseems like it16:07
AlsoItzSwirlzo/20:55
sarnoldso many swirlz20:56
AlsoItzSwirlzI'm on the bus, so I'm on my MacBook, using my phone as a hotspot/network20:56
AlsoItzSwirlzsaid phone is on 18% battery and it's about to t-storm20:56
AlsoItzSwirlznasty looking clouds hopefully any important poles don't get hit by lightning20:56
AlsoItzSwirlzso bear with me :p20:56
AlsoItzSwirlzhere comes the rain, doo-do-doo20:59
sil2100o/21:00
AlsoItzSwirlzheyo21:00
sil2100Let me ping the rest21:00
sil2100hmmm21:01
teward*burps and accidentally pushes sil2100 off the ledge into the abyss*21:01
AlsoItzSwirlzoh dear21:01
* kanashiro[m] waves21:02
* sil2100 disappears into the abyss21:02
tewardi'm here but i'm also beating my head against $UNDISCLOSED_CHAOS so21:03
AlsoItzSwirlz teward: best of luck, i feel like this release is barreling at us quickly21:03
tewardit is :P21:03
tewardgot pulled into some last minute stuff for Studio21:03
* arraybolt3 pulls sil2100 back out of the abyss and accidentally knocks teward into it in so doing21:03
arraybolt3Also, o/ if you need me21:04
teward*was already in the abyss*21:04
AlsoItzSwirlzarraybolt3: i guess you can start by not throwing more people into the abyss -_-21:04
sil2100Okay, I think we need at least one more person for quorum21:04
tewardye we need at least 1 more for quorum21:04
tewardunless we want to move anything to an ML vote.  though I think we have a vote that we decided to conclude over the ML due to meeting reasons?21:05
sil2100Yeah, I think we're missing some votes there21:06
kanashiro[m]Robie is out today, a holiday (not sure if he will make it)21:06
AlsoItzSwirlzbdmurray: garagamel, are you there21:06
AlsoItzSwirlzkanashiro[m]: ugh right21:06
utkarsh2102\o21:07
utkarsh2102thanks to the messed up sleep cycle. :)21:07
AlsoItzSwirlzhello!21:07
AlsoItzSwirlzutkarsh2102: take care21:07
utkarsh2102it's 0230 here but I am up and available!21:07
tewardsil2100: ^^21:09
sil2100Okay, anyone wants to chair? Maybe I'll pick that up then21:09
tewardnot it :)21:09
sil2100#startmeeting Developer Membership Board21:10
meetingologyMeeting started at 21:10:09 UTC.  The chair is sil2100.  Information about MeetBot at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology21:10
meetingologyAvailable commands: action, commands, idea, info, link, nick21:10
sil2100#topic PPU Applications21:10
sil2100#subtopic Joshua Peisach21:10
sil2100#link https://wiki.ubuntu.com/itzswirlz/Applications/UbuntuCinnamonPPUApplication21:10
sil2100AlsoItzSwirlz: o/21:11
AlsoItzSwirlzsil2100: hi!21:11
sil2100AlsoItzSwirlz: hello! Can you introduce yourself briefly? :)21:11
AlsoItzSwirlzhere's the sponsorship miner for everyones convenience: https://udd.debian.org/cgi-bin/ubuntu-sponsorships.cgi?render=html&sponsor=&sponsor_search=name&sponsoree=itzswirlz2020%40outlook.com&sponsoree_search=email21:11
AlsoItzSwirlzsil2100: Fun way:21:11
AlsoItzSwirlzI'm just a kid who's four, each day I learn some more, I like exploring I'm Cailou.21:11
AlsoItzSwirlzSerious way: high school student at bergen county academies, I first used ubuntu about five years ago, installed it on a real machine three years ago and on my laptop its my daily driver21:12
sil2100;)21:12
AlsoItzSwirlzI run the ubuntu cinnamon remix as my hobbyist project - goal is to eventually reach flavor status21:12
sil2100Thanks!21:14
sil2100Time for questions!21:14
utkarsh2102"For example, instead of syncing from Debian latest or going to Ubuntu unstable for building the latest version of Cinnamon, I’d just rebuild everything for no reason." - eeks :)21:14
kanashiro[m]AlsoItzSwirlz: you mentioned you make mistakes in your application, what are your plans to avoid that from now on?21:14
AlsoItzSwirlzutkarsh2102: shh21:14
AlsoItzSwirlzkanashiro[m]: Most mistakes as in minor packaging things or how I approach situations. It has changed a lot since I joined debian cinnamon team and spent more time in the Ubuntu world21:15
AlsoItzSwirlzFor a while I used to source/format a ubuntu cinnamon package as quilt, which made basically no sense21:15
utkarsh2102I see no uploads for Hirsute, Impish, Jammy? is there a specific reason why?21:16
AlsoItzSwirlzalso, back then, especially when i started the project i was very, I guess uneducated is a good word, about release cycles. Back then, I didn't understand what syncpackage/requestsync was, I didn't really understand the release process as well21:16
AlsoItzSwirlzutkarsh2102: They are in the ubuntu cinnamon remix ppa, see ~ubuntucinnamonremix21:17
AlsoItzSwirlzHold on, getting off the bus. BRB (give me 2 min)21:17
sil2100;)21:17
AlsoItzSwirlzutkarsh2102: Here's the stable PPU repo we have been using and will be ditching this release now that the packages are in universe: https://launchpad.net/~ubuntucinnamonremix/+archive/ubuntu/all21:19
AlsoItzSwirlzonly relevant ones are the ubuntucinnamon-* packages21:19
utkarsh2102alright! why not the main archive, though?21:19
AlsoItzSwirlzback then i was also slightly confused about the process of PPU.21:20
AlsoItzSwirlzI used to think that you could have your packages in a PPA, and then apply for PPU status and then your packages get imported21:20
utkarsh2102uh21:21
utkarsh2102okay21:21
AlsoItzSwirlzbut apparently MOTU's can sponsor, and so i got the help i needed. Though, I should've known that MOTU's can sponsor my packages into the archives and should've done it sooner.21:21
utkarsh2102MOTU and coredevs, either21:21
utkarsh2102s/and/or/ :)21:21
utkarsh2102okay, I have another (serious) question21:22
utkarsh2102looking at the packages at https://launchpad.net/~ubuntucinnamonremix/+archive/ubuntu/all/+packages21:22
AlsoItzSwirlzAlright. hit me21:22
utkarsh2102let's take the first one21:22
utkarsh2102src:calamares-settings-ubuntu21:23
utkarsh2102 calamares-settings-ubuntu | 1:20.04.2.1 | focal-updates/universe | source21:23
utkarsh2102 calamares-settings-ubuntu | 1:22.04.4   | jammy/universe         | source21:23
utkarsh2102 calamares-settings-ubuntu | 1:22.04.4.2 | jammy-updates/universe | source21:23
utkarsh2102 calamares-settings-ubuntu | 1:22.10.11  | kinetic/universe       | source21:23
utkarsh2102this is what rmadison shows21:23
utkarsh2102however, you've uploaded 1:22.09 to focal in that PPA?21:23
utkarsh2102do you think that's correct? if so, why? if not, why?21:24
AlsoItzSwirlzSo yeah, I knew about that very late after I initially forked calamares-settings-ubuntu from Lubuntu. However until I switched to Ubiquity for cinnamon remix i didn't need to use calamares anymore except for maintenance21:24
AlsoItzSwirlzutkarsh2102: because versioning, i wanted to keep it consistent21:25
utkarsh2102how's that consistent? :(21:25
AlsoItzSwirlzConsistent as in with the date i released/made the changelog, not the point version21:25
AlsoItzSwirlzI also had messed up my branches. Before I used fish as a shell (which showed me I was messing up) I did once end up pushing focal changes under the master branch which at the time was impish21:25
utkarsh2102do you see any problems with the versioning?21:25
AlsoItzSwirlzutkarsh2102: no, but i think that once i accidentally versioned it based on the date i can't go back (at least that's what I think)21:26
AlsoItzSwirlzI don't believe unless causing a lintian warning that you can have a version 1.0 then a 2.0 then a 1.1 release21:26
AlsoItzSwirlzutkarsh2102: i am aware that this conflicts with another package under the same source name which can also cause stability issues21:28
utkarsh2102what if a user who's using Focal + your PPA upgrades to Jammy?21:28
AlsoItzSwirlzutkarsh2102: calamares-settings-ubuntu is only installed on the live isos, it doesn't get installed on the user's host system21:29
AlsoItzSwirlzutkarsh2102: also, since it's a ppa upgrading it using sudo do-release-upgrade will disable it until the user manually re-enables it, in which again it won't be installed21:29
utkarsh2102I mean, you said, you only pushed to PPA because you thought you'd get PPU rights and then push those packages to the archive yourself. But with that versioning scheme, it'd be a mess, in my opinion :(21:30
AlsoItzSwirlzutkarsh2102: i could also have pushed something to the unstable ppa21:31
AlsoItzSwirlzhttps://launchpad.net/~ubuntucinnamonremix/+archive/ubuntu/unstable <- though i doubt that'll be useful21:31
AlsoItzSwirlzutkarsh2102: again, this is an installer package that isn't in use anymore. 20.04.5 is the last release/image made using it21:32
utkarsh2102one last question from my end: suppose you have 1.2.3-1 version of a package, say X, in Focal, Jammy, and Kinetic and you want to fix a bug in all of them - how are you gonna do that? and what versions are you gonna pick?21:33
AlsoItzSwirlz1.2.3-1ubuntu0.121:33
utkarsh2102for all of them?21:33
AlsoItzSwirlz^ as the version, i'd do it by doing a pull-lp-source of them21:33
utkarsh2102ok, no more questions from me! \o21:34
AlsoItzSwirlzutkarsh2102: not for all, take the latest release and add after the debian release -1 or -2, 'ubuntu' and then whatever version it needs21:34
AlsoItzSwirlzutkarsh2102: with my sru's i've done that21:34
utkarsh2102could you tell me the exact versions you'd use, please, for all the 3 releases (if not same)?21:35
utkarsh2102to be precise: 1.2.3-1 is in Debian but you want to fix it in Ubuntu now21:35
utkarsh2102it's Ubuntu specific, how'd you do it then^21:35
AlsoItzSwirlzSo if focal, jammy, and kinetic were all 1.2.3-1, I'd make it 1.2.3-1ubuntu0.121:35
AlsoItzSwirlzif jammy was 1.2.5-1, i'd make it 1.2.5-1ubuntu0.121:36
AlsoItzSwirlzjust append the ubuntu to the version revision21:36
AlsoItzSwirlzhttps://udd.debian.org/cgi-bin/ubuntu-sponsorships.cgi?render=html&sponsor=&sponsor_search=name&sponsoree=itzswirlz2020%40outlook.com&sponsoree_search=email - all non-UCR packages i've added +ubuntu0.121:36
AlsoItzSwirlzexception being cinnamon in groovy, which was before the release21:37
sil2100AlsoItzSwirlz: but would you use the same version for all the series?21:37
AlsoItzSwirlzsil2100: by version as in the numbers before the hyphen or after it21:38
utkarsh2102version = the whole string :)21:38
sil2100AlsoItzSwirlz: I mean the final full version. Would you use 1.2.5-1ubuntu0.1 as the version number for your SRU for focal and jammy?21:38
AlsoItzSwirlzIt depends on what the latest release that contains that bug is. You would grab the latest version, obtained by pull-lp-source and then work from there21:38
AlsoItzSwirlzsil2100: If 1.2.5-1 was the original version in both focal and jammy before i made my patch, yes21:39
kanashiro[m]in the proposed scenario you have 1.2.3-1 in both releases21:39
AlsoItzSwirlzthen 1.2.3-1ubuntu0.121:39
kanashiro[m]what would happen during the upgrade if you use the same version in both SRUs?21:40
AlsoItzSwirlzkanashiro[m]: nothing? the package would be up to date?21:40
kanashiro[m]is this the desired outcome?21:41
AlsoItzSwirlzthe only exception to the ubuntu0.1 is if the package already had a patch. If I made another patch after 1.2.5-1ubuntu0.1, I would name it 1.2.5-1ubuntu0.221:41
AlsoItzSwirlzkanashiro[m]: if the host system already has the update installed, yeah?21:41
sil2100AlsoItzSwirlz: so this would not work like that sadly. The ubuntu archive, in theory, doesn't allow multiple packages of the same version with different contents. So if you upload 1.2.3-1ubuntu0.1 to jammu and then want to upload it with the same version number to focal, it will be rejected21:41
AlsoItzSwirlz1.2.5-1 to 1.2.5-1ubuntu0.1 results in upgrade21:42
kanashiro[m]AlsoItzSwirlz: in this case, where you have the same version in more than one release, the recommended way is to add the release number to the version string. For instance, 1.2.3-1ubuntu0.20.04.1, 1.2.3-1ubuntu0.22.04.1 and so on21:42
AlsoItzSwirlzah, thats why for the caribou fix it was 0.20.10 because caribou hasn't had a new release in a long time - https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/caribou/0.4.21-7ubuntu0.20.10.121:42
sil2100AlsoItzSwirlz: it would have to be a binary copy from jammy to focal, but then you would have jammy-compiled binaries on a focal system, which can (depending on the toolchain and library differences) cause issues21:42
sil2100AlsoItzSwirlz: basically when backporting a change to stable series, you need to use different version numbers for every upload, and make sure that the version is smaller in the older releases21:43
AlsoItzSwirlznoted, i've never tried backporting anything that was already in the ubuntu archives21:44
kanashiro[m]AlsoItzSwirlz: out of curiosity: how would you decide if a change in cinnamon for instance should target Debian or Ubuntu? Since you have been doing some work in Debian as well21:45
AlsoItzSwirlzkanashiro[m]: if it was a distro-specific change, which to my knowledge any distro config is set in gsettings overrides21:46
AlsoItzSwirlzMost of the time, like for bug fixes it will be applicable to latest and devel ubuntu21:47
AlsoItzSwirlzupstream -> debian -> ubuntu21:47
utkarsh2102if you want to fix a bug in the devel release of both the distributions, how'd you go about it?21:47
AlsoItzSwirlzutkarsh2102: fix in debian, get the debian fix uploaded, wait for debian resync21:48
AlsoItzSwirlzif after debian import freeze requestsync it21:48
AlsoItzSwirlzor, under permissions, syncpackage21:48
utkarsh2102what if it's a feature that you added and not just a bug fix?21:48
utkarsh2102would you do the same thing? or would you do anything different?21:49
AlsoItzSwirlzSame thing unless it was close to a release21:49
utkarsh2102is there something you'd be careful about?21:49
AlsoItzSwirlzFor example, I wouldn't requestsync a package if it introduced a new feature super close to a release21:49
AlsoItzSwirlzif debian is still being in devel for a while, then that's fine21:50
AlsoItzSwirlzto clarify - i do not have debian upload rights either21:50
AlsoItzSwirlzOh, and always test new features before uploading.21:51
sil2100AlsoItzSwirlz: following up on what utkarsh2102 said: do you know what feature freeze is in Ubuntu?21:51
AlsoItzSwirlzsil2100: No new features are supposed to be added and autosync stops.21:51
AlsoItzSwirlzIf we are past feature freeze, then I would manually patch individually Ubuntu21:52
utkarsh2102how would you add a feature after the feature freeze then?21:52
AlsoItzSwirlzutkarsh2102: I wouldn't do that. In the previous context I didn't know you were talking post feature freeze21:52
AlsoItzSwirlzif a debian update had a bug fix, requestsync. if a debian update contained a new feature past feature freeze AND a bug fix, only patch the bug fix in ubuntu21:53
utkarsh2102thanks, no more questions from me. teward, sil2100, kanashiro, feel free to take over^21:54
tewardno questions21:55
kanashiro[m]we are almost reaching the top of the hour, no questions from me21:55
sil2100o/21:55
sil2100Okay, let's vote in this case21:55
sil2100#vote ItzSwirlz to get PPU rights for cinamon-related packages (list in application)21:56
meetingologyPlease vote on: ItzSwirlz to get PPU rights for cinamon-related packages (list in application)21:56
meetingologyPublic votes can be registered by saying +1, -1 or +0 in channel (for private voting, private message me with 'vote +1|-1|+0 #channelname')21:56
utkarsh2102writing a reason to send along, gimme a sec21:58
sil2100+0 I like the contributions and I like packaging in general, but I'm a bit concerned about some of the answers to questions regaring versioning for SRUs. I would personally love ItzSwirlz to have upload rights, but maybe hone his skills a bit more and then try again in a few weeks. To remove the rough edges22:00
meetingology+0 I like the contributions and I like packaging in general, but I'm a bit concerned about some of the answers to questions regaring versioning for SRUs. I would personally love ItzSwirlz to have upload rights, but maybe hone his skills a bit more and then try again in a few weeks. To remove the rough edges received from sil210022:00
teward-1 While I've always admired ItzSwirlz's effort for packaging and such in general, I see little to no SRU activity on their sponsorship miner, and only a focus on current versions.  I would like to see a lot more effort in bugfixing in SRUs, not just focus on current-devel-release which seems to be their primary drive.  I would also like to see more knowledge of what various devel processes are for ...22:02
meetingology-1 While I've always admired ItzSwirlz's effort for packaging and such in general, I see little to no SRU activity on their sponsorship miner, and only a focus on current versions.  I would like to see a lot more effort in bugfixing in SRUs, not just focus on current-devel-release which seems to be their primary drive.  I would also like to see more knowledge of what various devel processes are for ... received from teward22:02
utkarsh2102-1; reasons to follow:22:02
meetingology-1; reasons to follow: received from utkarsh210222:02
utkarsh2102I don't have any doubts in your work or your technical skills and I am sure you'll be a great addition to Ubuntu but I am afraid that having lack of basic Ubuntu process/cycle knowledge (only in certain parts) might cause problems (for instance, in -devel uploads or SRUs, et al). I think you need to work on those bits a little and you'll be perfectly fine in a few weeks. I am happy to sponsor your work meanwhile as well! :)22:02
teward... namely if you cannot remove a feature addition from a bug, you need to focus on things.  You also need more knowledge of all the overarching devel processes, because they're important for every package.22:02
teward(This is not a permanent -1, I just don't believe you have the knowledge yet to upload on your own, nor the evidence to support knowledge of the dev processes for stable releases *and* devel releases)22:03
tewardkanashiro[m]: ?22:03
AlsoItzSwirlzyeah, i only have one devel release patch i've ever done, that is the cinnamon groovy one22:03
kanashiro[m]-1 thanks for all the work you have been doing in the cinnamon remix, I see the impact of all that in the desktop ecosystem. However, I believe you need some more deep understanding regarding versioning and processes. And from your application, I am not still confident you should have access to the archive even for those packages, since you are not used to ask first (you mentioned you do things first and then thing about them).22:04
meetingology-1 thanks for all the work you have been doing in the cinnamon remix, I see the impact of all that in the desktop ecosystem. However, I believe you need some more deep understanding regarding versioning and processes. And from your application, I am not still confident you should have access to the archive even for those packages, since you are not used to ask first (you mentioned you do things first and then thing about them). rece22:04
kanashiro[m]I'd wait a bit more, develop a bit more your skills and then apply again. And this should not disencourage you, keep up the good work.22:04
AlsoItzSwirlzok22:04
sil2100#endvote22:04
meetingologyVoting ended on: ItzSwirlz to get PPU rights for cinamon-related packages (list in application)22:04
meetingologyVotes for: 0, Votes against: 3, Abstentions: 122:04
meetingologyMotion denied22:04
tewardsil2100: that's not enough for a quorate vote, we need the rest of the DMB to weigh in22:04
sil2100It's always a bit sad when a vote is not successful22:05
sil2100Yes22:05
tewardso we'll have to move that to ML or next meeting probably.  ML is probably faster22:05
sil2100I'll send out an e-mail to the rest, asking for votes. If not, we'll take it on the next meeting22:05
sil2100#action sil2100 to send out an e-mail requesting for votes from absent DMB members22:05
meetingologyACTION: sil2100 to send out an e-mail requesting for votes from absent DMB members22:05
AlsoItzSwirlzsil2100: one abstained and 3 against, there are a total of 722:06
AlsoItzSwirlzif the other 3 voted yes it'd be a tie22:06
sil2100...true, I think I got confused here myself22:07
sil2100AlsoItzSwirlz: eh, sorry about that. I still remember when my first attempt at becoming a MOTU failed, it's never a nice feeling22:07
AlsoItzSwirlzsadge22:07
AlsoItzSwirlzthis is actually my first application22:08
AlsoItzSwirlzi joined the ubuntu discourse around feb 2019 i've never applied for anything, haven't gone to any other board22:08
sil2100AlsoItzSwirlz: then treat this as a practice. And return for a successful one in a few!22:08
AlsoItzSwirlzwhenever that time will be, thanks to my long school day22:08
utkarsh2102don't hesitate to reach out in case you need help/assistance/sponsorship. :)22:09
sil2100Okay, since we're out of time, let me end the meeting. I'll take the action item of annoucements22:09
sil2100#action sil2100 to follow up on actions for ItzSwirlz's application22:09
meetingologyACTION: sil2100 to follow up on actions for ItzSwirlz's application22:09
AlsoItzSwirlzo/22:09
sil2100#endmeeting22:09
meetingologyMeeting ended at 22:09:38 UTC.  Minutes at https://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2022/ubuntu-meeting.2022-09-19-21.10.moin.txt22:09
AlsoItzSwirlzutkarsh2102: o22:09
AlsoItzSwirlz*ok22:09
sil2100Thank you everyone22:09
AlsoItzSwirlzalright cyall22:09
sil2100o/22:09
sil2100AlsoItzSwirlz: o/22:09
utkarsh2102\o22:09
kanashiro[m]o/22:10

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