[16:01] <sil2100> o/
[16:03] <sil2100> Guess we moved the meeting to 23 my time o/
[16:07] <bdmurray> seems like it
[20:55] <AlsoItzSwirlz> o/
[20:56] <sarnold> so many swirlz
[20:56] <AlsoItzSwirlz> I'm on the bus, so I'm on my MacBook, using my phone as a hotspot/network
[20:56] <AlsoItzSwirlz> said phone is on 18% battery and it's about to t-storm
[20:56] <AlsoItzSwirlz> nasty looking clouds hopefully any important poles don't get hit by lightning
[20:56] <AlsoItzSwirlz> so bear with me :p
[20:59] <AlsoItzSwirlz> here comes the rain, doo-do-doo
[21:00] <sil2100> o/
[21:00] <AlsoItzSwirlz> heyo
[21:00] <sil2100> Let me ping the rest
[21:01] <sil2100> hmmm
[21:01] <teward> *burps and accidentally pushes sil2100 off the ledge into the abyss*
[21:01] <AlsoItzSwirlz> oh dear
[21:02]  * kanashiro[m] waves
[21:02]  * sil2100 disappears into the abyss
[21:03] <teward> i'm here but i'm also beating my head against $UNDISCLOSED_CHAOS so
[21:03] <AlsoItzSwirlz>  teward: best of luck, i feel like this release is barreling at us quickly
[21:03] <teward> it is :P
[21:03] <teward> got pulled into some last minute stuff for Studio
[21:03]  * arraybolt3 pulls sil2100 back out of the abyss and accidentally knocks teward into it in so doing
[21:04] <arraybolt3> Also, o/ if you need me
[21:04] <teward> *was already in the abyss*
[21:04] <AlsoItzSwirlz> arraybolt3: i guess you can start by not throwing more people into the abyss -_-
[21:04] <sil2100> Okay, I think we need at least one more person for quorum
[21:04] <teward> ye we need at least 1 more for quorum
[21:05] <teward> unless we want to move anything to an ML vote.  though I think we have a vote that we decided to conclude over the ML due to meeting reasons?
[21:06] <sil2100> Yeah, I think we're missing some votes there
[21:06] <kanashiro[m]> Robie is out today, a holiday (not sure if he will make it)
[21:06] <AlsoItzSwirlz> bdmurray: garagamel, are you there
[21:06] <AlsoItzSwirlz> kanashiro[m]: ugh right
[21:07] <utkarsh2102> \o
[21:07] <utkarsh2102> thanks to the messed up sleep cycle. :)
[21:07] <AlsoItzSwirlz> hello!
[21:07] <AlsoItzSwirlz> utkarsh2102: take care
[21:07] <utkarsh2102> it's 0230 here but I am up and available!
[21:09] <teward> sil2100: ^^
[21:09] <sil2100> Okay, anyone wants to chair? Maybe I'll pick that up then
[21:09] <teward> not it :)
[21:10] <sil2100> #startmeeting Developer Membership Board
[21:10] <meetingology> Meeting started at 21:10:09 UTC.  The chair is sil2100.  Information about MeetBot at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
[21:10] <meetingology> Available commands: action, commands, idea, info, link, nick
[21:10] <sil2100> #topic PPU Applications
[21:10] <sil2100> #subtopic Joshua Peisach
[21:10] <sil2100> #link https://wiki.ubuntu.com/itzswirlz/Applications/UbuntuCinnamonPPUApplication
[21:11] <sil2100> AlsoItzSwirlz: o/
[21:11] <AlsoItzSwirlz> sil2100: hi!
[21:11] <sil2100> AlsoItzSwirlz: hello! Can you introduce yourself briefly? :)
[21:11] <AlsoItzSwirlz> here's the sponsorship miner for everyones convenience: https://udd.debian.org/cgi-bin/ubuntu-sponsorships.cgi?render=html&sponsor=&sponsor_search=name&sponsoree=itzswirlz2020%40outlook.com&sponsoree_search=email
[21:11] <AlsoItzSwirlz> sil2100: Fun way:
[21:11] <AlsoItzSwirlz> I'm just a kid who's four, each day I learn some more, I like exploring I'm Cailou.
[21:12] <AlsoItzSwirlz> Serious way: high school student at bergen county academies, I first used ubuntu about five years ago, installed it on a real machine three years ago and on my laptop its my daily driver
[21:12] <sil2100> ;)
[21:12] <AlsoItzSwirlz> I run the ubuntu cinnamon remix as my hobbyist project - goal is to eventually reach flavor status
[21:14] <sil2100> Thanks!
[21:14] <sil2100> Time for questions!
[21:14] <utkarsh2102> "For example, instead of syncing from Debian latest or going to Ubuntu unstable for building the latest version of Cinnamon, I’d just rebuild everything for no reason." - eeks :)
[21:14] <kanashiro[m]> AlsoItzSwirlz: you mentioned you make mistakes in your application, what are your plans to avoid that from now on?
[21:14] <AlsoItzSwirlz> utkarsh2102: shh
[21:15] <AlsoItzSwirlz> kanashiro[m]: Most mistakes as in minor packaging things or how I approach situations. It has changed a lot since I joined debian cinnamon team and spent more time in the Ubuntu world
[21:15] <AlsoItzSwirlz> For a while I used to source/format a ubuntu cinnamon package as quilt, which made basically no sense
[21:16] <utkarsh2102> I see no uploads for Hirsute, Impish, Jammy? is there a specific reason why?
[21:16] <AlsoItzSwirlz> also, back then, especially when i started the project i was very, I guess uneducated is a good word, about release cycles. Back then, I didn't understand what syncpackage/requestsync was, I didn't really understand the release process as well
[21:17] <AlsoItzSwirlz> utkarsh2102: They are in the ubuntu cinnamon remix ppa, see ~ubuntucinnamonremix
[21:17] <AlsoItzSwirlz> Hold on, getting off the bus. BRB (give me 2 min)
[21:17] <sil2100> ;)
[21:19] <AlsoItzSwirlz> utkarsh2102: Here's the stable PPU repo we have been using and will be ditching this release now that the packages are in universe: https://launchpad.net/~ubuntucinnamonremix/+archive/ubuntu/all
[21:19] <AlsoItzSwirlz> only relevant ones are the ubuntucinnamon-* packages
[21:19] <utkarsh2102> alright! why not the main archive, though?
[21:20] <AlsoItzSwirlz> back then i was also slightly confused about the process of PPU.
[21:20] <AlsoItzSwirlz> I used to think that you could have your packages in a PPA, and then apply for PPU status and then your packages get imported
[21:21] <utkarsh2102> uh
[21:21] <utkarsh2102> okay
[21:21] <AlsoItzSwirlz> but apparently MOTU's can sponsor, and so i got the help i needed. Though, I should've known that MOTU's can sponsor my packages into the archives and should've done it sooner.
[21:21] <utkarsh2102> MOTU and coredevs, either
[21:21] <utkarsh2102> s/and/or/ :)
[21:22] <utkarsh2102> okay, I have another (serious) question
[21:22] <utkarsh2102> looking at the packages at https://launchpad.net/~ubuntucinnamonremix/+archive/ubuntu/all/+packages
[21:22] <AlsoItzSwirlz> Alright. hit me
[21:22] <utkarsh2102> let's take the first one
[21:23] <utkarsh2102> src:calamares-settings-ubuntu
[21:23] <utkarsh2102>  calamares-settings-ubuntu | 1:20.04.2.1 | focal-updates/universe | source
[21:23] <utkarsh2102>  calamares-settings-ubuntu | 1:22.04.4   | jammy/universe         | source
[21:23] <utkarsh2102>  calamares-settings-ubuntu | 1:22.04.4.2 | jammy-updates/universe | source
[21:23] <utkarsh2102>  calamares-settings-ubuntu | 1:22.10.11  | kinetic/universe       | source
[21:23] <utkarsh2102> this is what rmadison shows
[21:23] <utkarsh2102> however, you've uploaded 1:22.09 to focal in that PPA?
[21:24] <utkarsh2102> do you think that's correct? if so, why? if not, why?
[21:24] <AlsoItzSwirlz> So yeah, I knew about that very late after I initially forked calamares-settings-ubuntu from Lubuntu. However until I switched to Ubiquity for cinnamon remix i didn't need to use calamares anymore except for maintenance
[21:25] <AlsoItzSwirlz> utkarsh2102: because versioning, i wanted to keep it consistent
[21:25] <utkarsh2102> how's that consistent? :(
[21:25] <AlsoItzSwirlz> Consistent as in with the date i released/made the changelog, not the point version
[21:25] <AlsoItzSwirlz> I also had messed up my branches. Before I used fish as a shell (which showed me I was messing up) I did once end up pushing focal changes under the master branch which at the time was impish
[21:25] <utkarsh2102> do you see any problems with the versioning?
[21:26] <AlsoItzSwirlz> utkarsh2102: no, but i think that once i accidentally versioned it based on the date i can't go back (at least that's what I think)
[21:26] <AlsoItzSwirlz> I don't believe unless causing a lintian warning that you can have a version 1.0 then a 2.0 then a 1.1 release
[21:28] <AlsoItzSwirlz> utkarsh2102: i am aware that this conflicts with another package under the same source name which can also cause stability issues
[21:28] <utkarsh2102> what if a user who's using Focal + your PPA upgrades to Jammy?
[21:29] <AlsoItzSwirlz> utkarsh2102: calamares-settings-ubuntu is only installed on the live isos, it doesn't get installed on the user's host system
[21:29] <AlsoItzSwirlz> utkarsh2102: also, since it's a ppa upgrading it using sudo do-release-upgrade will disable it until the user manually re-enables it, in which again it won't be installed
[21:30] <utkarsh2102> I mean, you said, you only pushed to PPA because you thought you'd get PPU rights and then push those packages to the archive yourself. But with that versioning scheme, it'd be a mess, in my opinion :(
[21:31] <AlsoItzSwirlz> utkarsh2102: i could also have pushed something to the unstable ppa
[21:31] <AlsoItzSwirlz> https://launchpad.net/~ubuntucinnamonremix/+archive/ubuntu/unstable <- though i doubt that'll be useful
[21:32] <AlsoItzSwirlz> utkarsh2102: again, this is an installer package that isn't in use anymore. 20.04.5 is the last release/image made using it
[21:33] <utkarsh2102> one last question from my end: suppose you have 1.2.3-1 version of a package, say X, in Focal, Jammy, and Kinetic and you want to fix a bug in all of them - how are you gonna do that? and what versions are you gonna pick?
[21:33] <AlsoItzSwirlz> 1.2.3-1ubuntu0.1
[21:33] <utkarsh2102> for all of them?
[21:33] <AlsoItzSwirlz> ^ as the version, i'd do it by doing a pull-lp-source of them
[21:34] <utkarsh2102> ok, no more questions from me! \o
[21:34] <AlsoItzSwirlz> utkarsh2102: not for all, take the latest release and add after the debian release -1 or -2, 'ubuntu' and then whatever version it needs
[21:34] <AlsoItzSwirlz> utkarsh2102: with my sru's i've done that
[21:35] <utkarsh2102> could you tell me the exact versions you'd use, please, for all the 3 releases (if not same)?
[21:35] <utkarsh2102> to be precise: 1.2.3-1 is in Debian but you want to fix it in Ubuntu now
[21:35] <utkarsh2102> it's Ubuntu specific, how'd you do it then^
[21:35] <AlsoItzSwirlz> So if focal, jammy, and kinetic were all 1.2.3-1, I'd make it 1.2.3-1ubuntu0.1
[21:36] <AlsoItzSwirlz> if jammy was 1.2.5-1, i'd make it 1.2.5-1ubuntu0.1
[21:36] <AlsoItzSwirlz> just append the ubuntu to the version revision
[21:36] <AlsoItzSwirlz> https://udd.debian.org/cgi-bin/ubuntu-sponsorships.cgi?render=html&sponsor=&sponsor_search=name&sponsoree=itzswirlz2020%40outlook.com&sponsoree_search=email - all non-UCR packages i've added +ubuntu0.1
[21:37] <AlsoItzSwirlz> exception being cinnamon in groovy, which was before the release
[21:37] <sil2100> AlsoItzSwirlz: but would you use the same version for all the series?
[21:38] <AlsoItzSwirlz> sil2100: by version as in the numbers before the hyphen or after it
[21:38] <utkarsh2102> version = the whole string :)
[21:38] <sil2100> AlsoItzSwirlz: I mean the final full version. Would you use 1.2.5-1ubuntu0.1 as the version number for your SRU for focal and jammy?
[21:38] <AlsoItzSwirlz> It depends on what the latest release that contains that bug is. You would grab the latest version, obtained by pull-lp-source and then work from there
[21:39] <AlsoItzSwirlz> sil2100: If 1.2.5-1 was the original version in both focal and jammy before i made my patch, yes
[21:39] <kanashiro[m]> in the proposed scenario you have 1.2.3-1 in both releases
[21:39] <AlsoItzSwirlz> then 1.2.3-1ubuntu0.1
[21:40] <kanashiro[m]> what would happen during the upgrade if you use the same version in both SRUs?
[21:40] <AlsoItzSwirlz> kanashiro[m]: nothing? the package would be up to date?
[21:41] <kanashiro[m]> is this the desired outcome?
[21:41] <AlsoItzSwirlz> the only exception to the ubuntu0.1 is if the package already had a patch. If I made another patch after 1.2.5-1ubuntu0.1, I would name it 1.2.5-1ubuntu0.2
[21:41] <AlsoItzSwirlz> kanashiro[m]: if the host system already has the update installed, yeah?
[21:41] <sil2100> AlsoItzSwirlz: so this would not work like that sadly. The ubuntu archive, in theory, doesn't allow multiple packages of the same version with different contents. So if you upload 1.2.3-1ubuntu0.1 to jammu and then want to upload it with the same version number to focal, it will be rejected
[21:42] <AlsoItzSwirlz> 1.2.5-1 to 1.2.5-1ubuntu0.1 results in upgrade
[21:42] <kanashiro[m]> AlsoItzSwirlz: in this case, where you have the same version in more than one release, the recommended way is to add the release number to the version string. For instance, 1.2.3-1ubuntu0.20.04.1, 1.2.3-1ubuntu0.22.04.1 and so on
[21:42] <AlsoItzSwirlz> ah, thats why for the caribou fix it was 0.20.10 because caribou hasn't had a new release in a long time - https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/caribou/0.4.21-7ubuntu0.20.10.1
[21:42] <sil2100> AlsoItzSwirlz: it would have to be a binary copy from jammy to focal, but then you would have jammy-compiled binaries on a focal system, which can (depending on the toolchain and library differences) cause issues
[21:43] <sil2100> AlsoItzSwirlz: basically when backporting a change to stable series, you need to use different version numbers for every upload, and make sure that the version is smaller in the older releases
[21:44] <AlsoItzSwirlz> noted, i've never tried backporting anything that was already in the ubuntu archives
[21:45] <kanashiro[m]> AlsoItzSwirlz: out of curiosity: how would you decide if a change in cinnamon for instance should target Debian or Ubuntu? Since you have been doing some work in Debian as well
[21:46] <AlsoItzSwirlz> kanashiro[m]: if it was a distro-specific change, which to my knowledge any distro config is set in gsettings overrides
[21:47] <AlsoItzSwirlz> Most of the time, like for bug fixes it will be applicable to latest and devel ubuntu
[21:47] <AlsoItzSwirlz> upstream -> debian -> ubuntu
[21:47] <utkarsh2102> if you want to fix a bug in the devel release of both the distributions, how'd you go about it?
[21:48] <AlsoItzSwirlz> utkarsh2102: fix in debian, get the debian fix uploaded, wait for debian resync
[21:48] <AlsoItzSwirlz> if after debian import freeze requestsync it
[21:48] <AlsoItzSwirlz> or, under permissions, syncpackage
[21:48] <utkarsh2102> what if it's a feature that you added and not just a bug fix?
[21:49] <utkarsh2102> would you do the same thing? or would you do anything different?
[21:49] <AlsoItzSwirlz> Same thing unless it was close to a release
[21:49] <utkarsh2102> is there something you'd be careful about?
[21:49] <AlsoItzSwirlz> For example, I wouldn't requestsync a package if it introduced a new feature super close to a release
[21:50] <AlsoItzSwirlz> if debian is still being in devel for a while, then that's fine
[21:50] <AlsoItzSwirlz> to clarify - i do not have debian upload rights either
[21:51] <AlsoItzSwirlz> Oh, and always test new features before uploading.
[21:51] <sil2100> AlsoItzSwirlz: following up on what utkarsh2102 said: do you know what feature freeze is in Ubuntu?
[21:51] <AlsoItzSwirlz> sil2100: No new features are supposed to be added and autosync stops.
[21:52] <AlsoItzSwirlz> If we are past feature freeze, then I would manually patch individually Ubuntu
[21:52] <utkarsh2102> how would you add a feature after the feature freeze then?
[21:52] <AlsoItzSwirlz> utkarsh2102: I wouldn't do that. In the previous context I didn't know you were talking post feature freeze
[21:53] <AlsoItzSwirlz> if a debian update had a bug fix, requestsync. if a debian update contained a new feature past feature freeze AND a bug fix, only patch the bug fix in ubuntu
[21:54] <utkarsh2102> thanks, no more questions from me. teward, sil2100, kanashiro, feel free to take over^
[21:55] <teward> no questions
[21:55] <kanashiro[m]> we are almost reaching the top of the hour, no questions from me
[21:55] <sil2100> o/
[21:55] <sil2100> Okay, let's vote in this case
[21:56] <sil2100> #vote ItzSwirlz to get PPU rights for cinamon-related packages (list in application)
[21:56] <meetingology> Please vote on: ItzSwirlz to get PPU rights for cinamon-related packages (list in application)
[21:56] <meetingology> Public votes can be registered by saying +1, -1 or +0 in channel (for private voting, private message me with 'vote +1|-1|+0 #channelname')
[21:58] <utkarsh2102> writing a reason to send along, gimme a sec
[22:00] <sil2100> +0 I like the contributions and I like packaging in general, but I'm a bit concerned about some of the answers to questions regaring versioning for SRUs. I would personally love ItzSwirlz to have upload rights, but maybe hone his skills a bit more and then try again in a few weeks. To remove the rough edges
[22:00] <meetingology> +0 I like the contributions and I like packaging in general, but I'm a bit concerned about some of the answers to questions regaring versioning for SRUs. I would personally love ItzSwirlz to have upload rights, but maybe hone his skills a bit more and then try again in a few weeks. To remove the rough edges received from sil2100
[22:02] <teward> -1 While I've always admired ItzSwirlz's effort for packaging and such in general, I see little to no SRU activity on their sponsorship miner, and only a focus on current versions.  I would like to see a lot more effort in bugfixing in SRUs, not just focus on current-devel-release which seems to be their primary drive.  I would also like to see more knowledge of what various devel processes are for ...
[22:02] <meetingology> -1 While I've always admired ItzSwirlz's effort for packaging and such in general, I see little to no SRU activity on their sponsorship miner, and only a focus on current versions.  I would like to see a lot more effort in bugfixing in SRUs, not just focus on current-devel-release which seems to be their primary drive.  I would also like to see more knowledge of what various devel processes are for ... received from teward
[22:02] <utkarsh2102> -1; reasons to follow:
[22:02] <meetingology> -1; reasons to follow: received from utkarsh2102
[22:02] <utkarsh2102> I don't have any doubts in your work or your technical skills and I am sure you'll be a great addition to Ubuntu but I am afraid that having lack of basic Ubuntu process/cycle knowledge (only in certain parts) might cause problems (for instance, in -devel uploads or SRUs, et al). I think you need to work on those bits a little and you'll be perfectly fine in a few weeks. I am happy to sponsor your work meanwhile as well! :)
[22:02] <teward> ... namely if you cannot remove a feature addition from a bug, you need to focus on things.  You also need more knowledge of all the overarching devel processes, because they're important for every package.
[22:03] <teward> (This is not a permanent -1, I just don't believe you have the knowledge yet to upload on your own, nor the evidence to support knowledge of the dev processes for stable releases *and* devel releases)
[22:03] <teward> kanashiro[m]: ?
[22:03] <AlsoItzSwirlz> yeah, i only have one devel release patch i've ever done, that is the cinnamon groovy one
[22:04] <kanashiro[m]> -1 thanks for all the work you have been doing in the cinnamon remix, I see the impact of all that in the desktop ecosystem. However, I believe you need some more deep understanding regarding versioning and processes. And from your application, I am not still confident you should have access to the archive even for those packages, since you are not used to ask first (you mentioned you do things first and then thing about them).
[22:04] <meetingology> -1 thanks for all the work you have been doing in the cinnamon remix, I see the impact of all that in the desktop ecosystem. However, I believe you need some more deep understanding regarding versioning and processes. And from your application, I am not still confident you should have access to the archive even for those packages, since you are not used to ask first (you mentioned you do things first and then thing about them). rece
[22:04] <kanashiro[m]> I'd wait a bit more, develop a bit more your skills and then apply again. And this should not disencourage you, keep up the good work.
[22:04] <AlsoItzSwirlz> ok
[22:04] <sil2100> #endvote
[22:04] <meetingology> Voting ended on: ItzSwirlz to get PPU rights for cinamon-related packages (list in application)
[22:04] <meetingology> Votes for: 0, Votes against: 3, Abstentions: 1
[22:04] <meetingology> Motion denied
[22:04] <teward> sil2100: that's not enough for a quorate vote, we need the rest of the DMB to weigh in
[22:05] <sil2100> It's always a bit sad when a vote is not successful
[22:05] <sil2100> Yes
[22:05] <teward> so we'll have to move that to ML or next meeting probably.  ML is probably faster
[22:05] <sil2100> I'll send out an e-mail to the rest, asking for votes. If not, we'll take it on the next meeting
[22:05] <sil2100> #action sil2100 to send out an e-mail requesting for votes from absent DMB members
[22:05] <meetingology> ACTION: sil2100 to send out an e-mail requesting for votes from absent DMB members
[22:06] <AlsoItzSwirlz> sil2100: one abstained and 3 against, there are a total of 7
[22:06] <AlsoItzSwirlz> if the other 3 voted yes it'd be a tie
[22:07] <sil2100> ...true, I think I got confused here myself
[22:07] <sil2100> AlsoItzSwirlz: eh, sorry about that. I still remember when my first attempt at becoming a MOTU failed, it's never a nice feeling
[22:07] <AlsoItzSwirlz> sadge
[22:08] <AlsoItzSwirlz> this is actually my first application
[22:08] <AlsoItzSwirlz> i joined the ubuntu discourse around feb 2019 i've never applied for anything, haven't gone to any other board
[22:08] <sil2100> AlsoItzSwirlz: then treat this as a practice. And return for a successful one in a few!
[22:08] <AlsoItzSwirlz> whenever that time will be, thanks to my long school day
[22:09] <utkarsh2102> don't hesitate to reach out in case you need help/assistance/sponsorship. :)
[22:09] <sil2100> Okay, since we're out of time, let me end the meeting. I'll take the action item of annoucements
[22:09] <sil2100> #action sil2100 to follow up on actions for ItzSwirlz's application
[22:09] <meetingology> ACTION: sil2100 to follow up on actions for ItzSwirlz's application
[22:09] <AlsoItzSwirlz> o/
[22:09] <sil2100> #endmeeting
[22:09] <meetingology> Meeting ended at 22:09:38 UTC.  Minutes at https://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2022/ubuntu-meeting.2022-09-19-21.10.moin.txt
[22:09] <AlsoItzSwirlz> utkarsh2102: o
[22:09] <AlsoItzSwirlz> *ok
[22:09] <sil2100> Thank you everyone
[22:09] <AlsoItzSwirlz> alright cyall
[22:09] <sil2100> o/
[22:09] <sil2100> AlsoItzSwirlz: o/
[22:09] <utkarsh2102> \o
[22:10] <kanashiro[m]> o/