[00:52] <JanC> schuelermine[m]: I didn't really check, but I assume it's the files in the 'gsettings-desktop-schemas' and 'gsettings-ubuntu-schemas' packages
[00:53] <JanC> and similar packages for other DEs
 "so you're claiming that users..." <- No, I mean that GNOME by default ships different fonts, and Ubuntu has to somehow customize them. Do they ship a custom built GNOME with different defaults or is it something else?
[00:54] <schuelermine[m]> JanC: That could be it! I will investigate further tomoroow
[00:54] <JanC> the latter of the 2 packages would be the modifications for Ubuntu, I suppose
[01:04] <JanC> the files in 'ubuntu-session' & maybe some other packages might be involved too
[01:43] <lotuspsychje> good morning
[01:46] <bingoJACKPOT> *depending on the time zone, mate. Could someone please refer me to an off-topic channel?
[01:47] <bingoJACKPOT> I am only looking for another venue for something. I love Libera I will say starting off... I don't know where to ask my question though
[01:48] <lotuspsychje> !ot
[01:49] <bingoJACKPOT> What is that about ... ubottu. Must be related to something else as I just walked into the conversation. What I have to discuss is not an Ubuntu support topic
[01:49] <arraybolt3[m]> bingoJACKPOT: They're just showing you the #ubuntu-offtopic channel.
[01:49] <bingoJACKPOT> Oh, haha, gee gollie
[01:50] <arraybolt3[m]> Ubottu is a bot that allows users to quickly produce a commonly-requested message with only a tiny bit of typing.
[01:50] <arraybolt3[m]> So if I want to show someone how to change kernel boot parameters but don't want to type the whole thing out, I just do:
[01:50] <arraybolt3[m]> !kernelparm
[01:50] <bingoJACKPOT> Well, i just want to know of a place to share and learn code other than Libera and Discord ... Like something similiar that gets more traffic. Also - not Reddit or Twitter or super popular social media sites. Something a bit more narrow and less known
[01:50] <arraybolt3[m]> The !ot factoid brings up info about #ubuntu-offtopic, which is probably the best channel for your question.
[01:51] <arraybolt3[m]> (You might try Matrix.)
[01:52] <arraybolt3[m]> (It's not a super popular social media site, and it has various chatrooms kind of like Libera but different.)
[01:52] <arraybolt3[m]> bingoJACKPOT: ^
[02:56] <arraybolt3[m]> lagunaloire: re: the last message from #ubuntu -  openJDK isn't proprietary though.
[02:56] <lagunaloire> arraybolt3 ok as i was saying base is easy like kexi but more powerful
[02:57] <lagunaloire> lagunaloire i dont use open source stuff...i use the free gpl versions of java before sun decided to change their minds and go back to owning java
[02:57] <arraybolt3[m]> How do you get around the mess where once you start adding data to the database you can't change the way the columns work? The main thing that drove me nuts with Base was that it requires a lot of forethought. You can't just design as you go like Calc, you have to plan out everything first, and if you make a slip-up you have to start over.
[02:58] <lagunaloire> arraybolt3..yes databases need to be planned out before putting in the data but with sql you should be able to change the structure in many ways
[02:59] <arraybolt3[m]> See I don't know SQL. I tried using it some once, it was... not something I'd like to work with every day.
[02:59] <lagunaloire> arraybolt3 you can insert and delete columns and fields of data with most sql packages
[03:00] <lagunaloire> arraybolt3 well sql is popular because it supports transaction statements in addition to usual relational database commands
[03:00] <arraybolt3[m]> Also, have you ever had Base scramble up the order of items that you put in it? That happened to me more than once if I remember correctly.
[03:00] <lagunaloire> arraybolt3 no that has never happened to me
[03:00] <arraybolt3[m]> (Yeah, I get that SQL has its benefits, it's just cumbersome. I wouldn't like to write documents in HTML every day either.)
[03:01] <lagunaloire> arraybolt3...well html is useful if you intend to put it on the web...but otherwise pdf is just fine
[03:01] <arraybolt3[m]> Again, this is all from someone who's mostly a newbie in the SQL database world - if I knew SQL like the back of my hand, I'd probably get along just fine. But I don't.
[03:02] <arraybolt3[m]> Right. And to me Base is useful if you intend to work with business or enterprise data in large quantities at high speeds, but otherwise Calc is just fine.
[03:02] <lagunaloire> arraybolt3 well i used sql about 20 years ago when i built an auction server to compete with ebay..it had to have a database back end...but i did not like having to pay for bandwidth to host the auction server so i quit messing with it
[03:03] <arraybolt3[m]> So that's why you're comfortable with database technology. Makes sense.
[03:04] <arraybolt3[m]> Kinda like how I'm comfortable with the Bash shell and so will write a custom timer as a shell one-liner if I need a timer, rather than finding a GUI app to do it.
[03:04] <daftykins> even in education playing with db's i made my planning last longer than everyone else, anytime someone in the class shouted out an error they had made - i edited my design xD
[03:04] <daftykins> worked out great
[03:04] <daftykins> "ooh i didn't think of that" *scribble*
[03:05] <arraybolt3[m]> Right? Spend twice as much time planning as you want to, get the job done twice as fast. (Or something like that.)
[03:05] <daftykins> \o/
[03:05] <lagunaloire> arraybolt3 well databases are quite useful for keeping fast searching and sorting records of various things instead of a slow rolodex
[03:06] <arraybolt3[m]> lagunaloire: There we agree.
[03:06] <lagunaloire> arraybolt3..you might want a database of your friends telephone numbers...or your mom's recipes...or your cd collection etc
[03:06] <arraybolt3[m]> What they lack in user-friendliness, they make up for with power. But for small sets of things like recipes, CDs, telephone numbers, I don't think I'd notice Calc's overhead.
[03:06] <lagunaloire> arraybolt3 you can always use a rolodex of paper cards but the sorting and searching would be very slow
[03:07] <arraybolt3[m]> And I'd definitely notice the ability to tweak things as I went.
[03:08] <arraybolt3[m]> I mean, I dunno, how many recipes do you have anyway?
[03:08] <lagunaloire> arraybolt3 i like the lightning speeds of electronic versions of various endeavors
[03:08] <arraybolt3[m]> That makes sense to me.
[03:08] <lagunaloire> arraybolt3 well you might have thousands if you keep the records of recipes of your entire geneological ancestors
[03:09] <lagunaloire> arraybolt3 or if you have an entire city of friends phone numbers that amount to hundreds of thousands of records
[03:10] <lagunaloire> arraybolt3 or if you have 5 decades of all kinds of music cds
[03:11] <arraybolt3[m]> I don't have hundreds of thousands of friends :)
[03:11] <lagunaloire> arraybolt3 well neither do i...but for the auction server i built it had the capacity for millions of auction transactions to compete with ebay
[03:11] <arraybolt3[m]> That makes sense.
[03:11] <lagunaloire> arraybolt3 that is where electronic databases really shine
[03:12] <lagunaloire> arraybolts as opposed to paper cards on a rolodexx
[03:13] <arraybolt3[m]> I'm not saying databases are useless. I'm saying they are inconvenient for me personally when dealing with relatively small datasets.
[03:13] <lagunaloire> arraybolt3 or you might want a database of millions of virus signatures if you are designing an antivirus program
[03:13] <arraybolt3[m]> Obviously if you're dealing with a giant dataset with a fixed structure, a real database is the way to go.
[03:13] <lagunaloire> arraybolt3 well for small stuff a rolodex probably would be just fine
[03:14] <arraybolt3[m]> But a small dataset that may morph as you use it wouldn't fit well in a real database - a spreadsheet would take that.
[03:14] <arraybolt3[m]> (A small dataset that had a fixed format would work in a real database too, but I don't know my database stuff well enough to do that easily :P)
[03:15] <lagunaloire> arraybolt3 yes you can use just a spreadsheet for small stuff..but why spend the money for a computer that might break when if that is all you want a rolodex would be just fine
[03:15] <Square> I know wayland took away a bunch of features. But did wayland add some cool things to play with? 
[03:16] <lagunaloire> arraybolt3 or a penned little black book for just a few phone numbers
[03:16] <arraybolt3[m]> What if... wow you are really running me in circles here :D 1-20 items, rolodex. 21-2000 items, spreadsheet. >2000, database.
[03:16] <lagunaloire> arrayybolt3 yes that makes sense
[03:17] <arraybolt3[m]> I just don't see how most people would have >2000 CDs, phone numbers, or recipes.
[03:17] <lagunaloire> arraybolt3 but you can put hundreds of cards in a rolodex where each card has as many fields as you want...
[03:17] <lagunaloire> arraybolt3 i have boxes of cd
[03:18] <Square> My 5 cents. Most times you have a database you want to do something custom with the data. So I'd prefer a database with a well supported programming api. Like sqlite, postgres etc.
[03:18] <lagunaloire> arraybolt3 i have boxes of cd's that need to be sorted some day...they contain a lot of source code
[03:18] <arraybolt3[m]> Part of my love of spreadsheets may stem from the fact that I know them like you know databases - I made VBA applications in Excel for use in an enterprise environment. Me and spreadsheets go together well.
[03:18] <Square> .../programming language bindings.
[03:19] <lagunaloire> square well that is why i said use base because it can hook into those databases
[03:19] <arraybolt3[m]> Square: That's probably the appeal of sql, right? It's compatible with just about everything.
[03:19] <arraybolt3[m]> Like, if your DB server supports SQL, almost any DB client in the world can use it.
[03:19] <lagunaloire> arraybolt3 well you don't need all that visual basic overhead....you can use simple basic commands with calc and then put the output of your routines to a cell
[03:20] <Square> Wo having tried "Base" it seems to be an analogue to Microsoft Access. 
[03:20] <arraybolt3[m]> lagunaloire: No it wasn't formulas, it was *applications*. Like with buttons, drop-down menus, auto-generated UI elements, message boxes, stuff like that.
[03:20] <lagunaloire> square..no kexi is similar to Access ...base is more powerful
[03:20] <Square> oh ok
[03:21] <arraybolt3[m]> VBA macros were the easiest way to do it.
[03:21] <lagunaloire> arraybolt3..you don't need all that visual basic overhead...lets just say you want some basic code for fourier transforms..and then you want to output your functions values to a cell..all you need is basic without all that visual overhead
[03:23] <arraybolt3[m]> I'd go into detail but since it was a job for an enterprise, I can't. Suffice to say, the easiest way to dynamically create and destroy UI elements like buttons in Excel is with VBA.
[03:23] <lagunaloire> arraybolt3 and calc does that just fine
[03:24] <arraybolt3[m]> I had to basically take Excel and transform it into a different application with a very specific use case. It still had Excel's features, but the main features of the app were geared toward a totally different use case than general spreadsheet manipulation.
[03:24] <lagunaloire> arraybolt3..yes i can see that...but you might as well have just written the program with visual gui elements like windows, menu buttons, dialog boxes and all that visual overhead
[03:25] <arraybolt3[m]> lagunaloire: That would have been an option too but access to a real IDE for building that sort of thing wasn't available to me.
[03:25] <lagunaloire> arraybolt3 but most of the time...you use spreadsheets for calculations and basic is just fine for supplementing its built-in features
[03:26] <arraybolt3[m]> (I considered building it standalone, but Excel was easier to build on top of, plus I already had the full development environment, and performance wasn't a big concern.)
[03:26] <arraybolt3[m]> (Now here I am rattling on about Excel stuff in the middle of #ubuntu-discuss. Sigh. I am really bad at staying on topic.)
[03:27] <lagunaloire> arraybolt3 well that is pretty impressive...but with a stand alone gui'd app..you could have avoided entanglement of others propietary requirements
[03:28] <lagunaloire> arraybolt3 and it would have been entirely yours to determine what requirements you wanted from the users
[03:28] <arraybolt3[m]> Definitely I'd do it standalone if I were doing it again, especially if I didn't want to be bound to Windows. But given the fact that the company used Windows a whole lot, proprietary nonsense wasn't a big concern right then. Plus it was being made specifically for them - it wasn't ever meant to be used outside of the one company.
[03:29] <arraybolt3[m]> If it was to be an open-source thing, definitely, standalone app, free language, make it work on Linux. But when it's a custom job for one guy, you make it match his environment... which involves allowing yourself to use Windows, Excel, VBA, etc.
[03:29] <lagunaloire> arraybolt3..oh...well i used microsoft sql 20 years ago because microsoft had the program when others did not..so i built the auction server on top of ms sql server
[03:31] <lagunaloire> arraybolt3 but these days there is so much free stuff like mariadb that it is unwise to get involved with other people's propietary stuff
[03:31] <arraybolt3[m]> 👍️
[03:36] <lagunaloire> arraybolt3 i once asked the kde crew...how much should i pay for a copy of kexi for the windows os to see if it was cheaper than ms access...and they said it was free...that is what i mean buy free stuff
[03:36] <arraybolt3[m]> Right.
[03:37] <lagunaloire> arraybolt3...free software is the way to go..when you can..but there are still some issues where there is no free software solution yet
[03:37] <arraybolt3[m]> (LOL you asked KDE to buy a copy of Kexi? That's kinda funny. Reminds me of the time I saw a "pirated" copy of Ubuntu.)
[03:37] <arraybolt3[m]> s/buy/sell you/
[03:38] <arraybolt3[m]> (I mean I guess the site might not have been claiming the copy of Ubuntu was pirated, but it looked that way and I found that to be funny since Ubuntu is free software, both free as in free-of-price and free as in freedom.)
[03:39] <lagunaloire> arraybolt3 well i knew kde was free for the linux community that swaps and shares code with each other...but i did not know if it would be free for windows without contributing any code back..but they said it was free
[03:40] <arraybolt3[m]> Ah. That's one nice thing about free-as-in-freedom software, it may not mesh well with proprietary stuff for distributors, but it works just fine with proprietary stuff for the end-user.
[03:41] <arraybolt3[m]> (Assuming it's designed to work well with proprietary stuff, obviously, but a lot of free software is designed to work with non-free or at least not-usually-associated-with-free-software formats to some degree.)
[03:42] <lagunaloire> arraybolt3..well the typical windows user doesnt know how to contribute code back to the community as part of the sharing agreement for free software...but kde said it was ok with them
[03:43] <lagunaloire> arraybolt3...contributing back code is the essence of gnu so the free software library will continue to expand
[03:44] <arraybolt3[m]> Pretty sure the GPL doesn't require any "contribute code back" stuff. If you redistribute the software to others, you have to also give them (or at least offer them) the source code, but if you're downloading it for yourself, that part doesn't matter - they offer you the software and the source code, if you don't want the source code, that's fine, you know who to ask (or where to get it) if you change your mind.
[03:44] <arraybolt3[m]> You don't have to assist in writing the software in order to use it. You just have to also offer the source if you redistribute it.
[03:44] <lagunaloire> arraybolt3..no it is not in the words...it is the goal of free software to expand free software whenever possible and this is done by people sharing contributed code for the community
[03:45] <arraybolt3[m]> Ah. That makes sense.
[03:47] <lagunaloire> arraybolt3 the typical windows user doesn't know how to code or contribute code..but they do know how to play games and comment on them for the benefit of others that would like to know whether a game is worth their time or not
[03:59] <lagunaloire> arraybolt3 that is just because people only have a limited time on this earth and they can't afford to waste any of their time on shoddy or inferior games that don't have interesting stories to tell
[04:03] <lagunaloire> arraybolt3 but if reviews indicate that a game is very enlightening or interesting..some people might want to hear it and see it with their own eyes
[04:06] <lagunaloire> arraybolt3 the same would go for movies also
[04:07] <lagunaloire> arraybolt3 but games are older than movies so it is very important for games
[04:09] <arraybolt3> lagunaloire: Yeah, I see your point. (Just fyi, I probably won't be online for the rest of the night, so I don't expect to reply anymore until tomorrow if you're still there by then.)
[04:09] <arraybolt3> (It's night time over here.)
[04:09] <lagunaloire> arraybolt3 yes here too..so i will see you later
[04:10] <arraybolt3> o/
[04:11] <lagunaloire> arraybolt3 well it is just because our time is limited on this earth..so one cannot afford to squander it
[04:12] <lagunaloire> arraybolt3 scarcity necessitates wise decisions
[04:33] <lagunaloire> arraybolt3 when you know you only have a finite amount of years to live you know you cannot afford to waste any of them
[04:36] <lagunaloire> arraybolt3 look how many old people say "where did all my years go and so fast?" "if only i had made them count when i had them"
[04:36] <daftykins> my my, such monologue
[04:37] <lagunaloire> daftykins...cloud strife is a good friend of mine and he engaged in monologue when his friend aeris or aerith was killed...i do the same as my first wife has already died.
[04:39] <daftykins> no user named that in here
[04:39] <lagunaloire> daftykins not in this room but always present in my memory...stories never die when they can be remembered
[04:40] <daftykins> ignore it is, bye bye
[08:18] <ducasse> hi folks
[09:36] <wez_hn> hai ducasse!!! How are you todayu?
[09:56] <ducasse> i'm good, and you?
[10:05] <wez_hn> Great! Kicking it up
[14:43] <lotuspsychje> ogra: what do you think of this; !phasedupdates ; Since Ubuntu 21.04 Apt now implements phased updates wich can hold back updates on some machines while they are being phased. Visit https://discourse.ubuntu.com/t/phased-updates-in-apt-in-21-04/20345 for more info
[14:45] <arraybolt3[m]> lotuspsychje: I think I need to write the necessary data in the official Wiki and then we plug that link in instead.
[14:45] <arraybolt3[m]> (I know I'm not ogra but that's my thought.)
[14:46] <lotuspsychje> yeah, its still a suggestion factoid, everyone can think along on it, i just thought it was a good idea from ogra since a lot of users are affected
[14:46] <arraybolt3[m]> If you don't want to wait for me to get stuff in the official Wiki, I also have the info on Codidact: https://linux.codidact.com/posts/287141 (And yes, it's also on Ask Ubuntu but I recently left Stack Exchange for the most part.)
[14:47] <lotuspsychje> arraybolt3[m]: this is the wiki you talk about? https://wiki.ubuntu.com/PhasedUpdates
[14:48] <arraybolt3[m]> Yep. I'm trying to sign into it right now.
[14:48] <lotuspsychje> thats a pretty neat write arraybolt3[m] 
[14:49] <arraybolt3[m]> Wow, it signed me in on the first try. That's rare.
[14:52] <tomreyn> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/PhasedUpdates is the feature specification draft), before it was implemented (originally only supported on desktop), i would think.
[14:54] <tomreyn> phased updates got an updated design spec in 2021 (?) which was implemented in apt itself, so it can also work on servers now.
[14:54] <tomreyn> (i *hope* i described this correctly, please correct me if wrong, confirmations appreciated, too)
[14:55] <arraybolt3[m]> IIRC, rbasak was OK with the idea of us turning that page into the documentation page.
[14:55] <arraybolt3[m]> (Then again, maybe it would fit better on help.ubuntu.com, it may end up getting messed up if I put it on the Wiki since there are some changes that are proposed for the Wiki's future.)
[14:56] <tomreyn> https://discourse.ubuntu.com/t/phased-updates-in-apt-in-21-04/20345 describes the newer implementation
[15:36] <arraybolt3[m]> Just jumping in to say, I hate MoinMoin Wiki syntax. Alright, that's what I had to say, thanks.
[15:38] <arraybolt3[m]> On a positive note, we now have official Phased Updates documentation! https://help.ubuntu.com/community/PhasedUpdates
[15:39] <lotuspsychje> nice1 arraybolt3[m] 
[15:41] <arraybolt3[m]> Also put a link to the new Wiki page here: https://help.ubuntu.com/community/SoftwareManagement
[15:42] <lotuspsychje> so now to figure out what the best factoid line would be to help understand the users what it is, and what to do exactly
[15:42] <arraybolt3[m]> Or did I? I thought I did.
[15:42] <lotuspsychje> i see it arraybolt3[m] number 3. on bottom
[15:43] <arraybolt3[m]> Hmph, Chromium must just have a really stubborn cache today then.
[15:45] <arraybolt3[m]> lotuspsychje: I liked your idea for the factoid, maybe something like: !phasedupdates ; Since Ubuntu 21.04, Apt now implements phased updates. This can hold back updates on some machines while they are being phased. Visit https://help.ubuntu.com/community/PhasedUpdates for more info.
[15:46] <lotuspsychje> sounds good to me, maybe await what others and ogra thinks of it before i request it
[16:10] <cbreak> trying out 22.10.
[16:10] <cbreak> first thing I noticed: Everything's louder
[16:14] <arraybolt3[m]> cbreak: Bad or good?
[16:15] <cbreak> just weird
[16:15] <arraybolt3[m]> (For me it would be good, I remember Kubuntu 20.04 was so quiet on my Elitebook back when I used it. Weird to look back at it now, 20.04 was the cutting edge of Ubuntu (except for the development release) back when I first used it, now 20.04 flavors are just about EOL.)
[16:15] <cbreak> had to adjust the volume further
[16:15] <cbreak> wonder if that's because they ripped out pulse audio
[17:31] <Bashing-om> UWN: Issue755 released to the public: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuWeeklyNewsletter/Issue755 :D
[17:31] <arraybolt3[m]> Bashing-om: Woot!
[17:32] <Bashing-om> arraybolt3[m]: It comes around ^ - glad it does come around :D
[22:21] <arraybolt3[m]> tomreyn, leftyfb: OK so *maybe* I should have joined #linux before believing CurryPowder11 - it looks like he's also Guest99 on #linux:libera.chat?
[22:21] <arraybolt3[m]> Anyway I'm in there now.
[22:22] <arraybolt3[m]> Hmm, or maybe I misunderstood the bits of conversation I was looking at.
[22:23] <tomreyn> different isps, different U.S. states, probably not the same person
[22:36] <arraybolt3[m]> tomreyn: 👍️