[01:41] <lotuspsychje> good morning
[07:08] <ducasse> good morrow
[07:08] <murmel> good tomorrow? ^^
[07:09] <ducasse> 'morrow' is an old english term for 'morning' :)
[07:09] <murmel> ahh, til :)
[07:10] <ducasse> not really been in use for 200 years or so
[07:12] <murmel> eh, you never know if it gets used again
[07:57] <wez_hn> verily
[15:46] <arraybolt3[m]> So, I see Canonical just launched Ubuntu Pro for more than just the cloud. They offer physical server and desktop pricing, as well as a way to buy stuff for public cloud instances, but this raises the question - what's the virtual server pricing like?
[15:47] <arraybolt3[m]> Does a physical server license come with virtual server licenses for all of the VMs run on that server?
[15:48] <arraybolt3[m]> Also, I know Ubuntu membership came with an expansion of Ubuntu Advantage licenses from 3 for personal use to 50 for personal use - how does this apply to Ubuntu Pro since Ubuntu Advantage is now becoming Ubuntu Pro?
[15:51] <arraybolt3[m]> I'd guess Ubuntu Pro (infra-only) would remain 50 licenses for Ubuntu members, with up to five of those being available to use as full Ubuntu Pro?
[15:52] <arraybolt3[m]> It will also be interesting to see how Ubuntu Pro interacts with MOTUs now that Ubuntu is taking on maintaining Universe as well.
[15:56] <lotuspsychje> !Phasedupdates is <reply> Since Ubuntu 21.04, Apt now implements phased updates. This can hold back updates on some machines while they are being phased. Visit https://help.ubuntu.com/community/PhasedUpdates for more info.
[16:49] <lotuspsychje> arraybolt3[m]: https://canonical.com/careers/3798310
[16:50] <arraybolt3[m]> lotuspsychje: LOL well hold on I've not even been around for a whole year yet.
[16:50] <lotuspsychje> hehe
[16:50] <lotuspsychje> would be great to be payed to write right!
[17:01] <arraybolt3[m]> Hmm... "Is familiar with Git or other version control systems" yikes, Git is my nemesis
[17:01] <arraybolt3[m]> I mean I can work with it, but it's tricky.
[17:03] <lotuspsychje> an job role title sounds always heavier then the actual physical role
[17:03] <lotuspsychje> we are humans, not machines right
[17:08] <cbreak> git is great
[17:09] <cbreak> especially when comparing to the before-times
[17:09] <arraybolt3[m]> git is a nightmare
[17:10] <arraybolt3[m]> I wonder if SVN or Bazaar would be any better.
[17:10] <cbreak> SVN is horrible
[17:10] <cbreak> and bazaar is similar to git, just worse
[17:11] <cbreak> but bazaar failed years ago I think
[17:14] <leftyfb> arraybolt3[m]: it took a while for git to "click" with me. Once it did, I get it now and it works as well as it should
[17:17] <cbreak> I've used it since working on my masters thesis like 14 years ago, and it was so much better than SVN, I never looked back (voluntarily). git saved me so many problems over the years...
[17:19] <arraybolt3[m]> Git seems to stand for "Gobble Information and Throw it away" for me. I've had it eat my data so many times.
[17:20] <arraybolt3[m]> I kept having to delete the directory containing the repo and re-clone the project.
[17:24] <ravage> you are doing it wrong then :)
[17:25] <cbreak> the big advantage of git over lesser alternatives is that you basically never lose information by accident
[17:25] <arraybolt3> ravage: Well that much is obvious but how to do it right keeps escaping me.
[17:25] <cbreak> and since history is distributed redundantly, including local copies, you don't have to contact servers all the time
[17:25] <cbreak> and you don't have to re-clone at all
[17:26] <ravage> arraybolt3, there are some pretty good git tutorials on youtube 
[17:26] <cbreak> with subversion, you have to re-copy and re-download all the data every time you switch branches :/
[17:26] <leftyfb> there's also #git
[17:26] <arraybolt3> cbreak: Ah, yes, but you see, I use git reset --hard.
[17:26] <cbreak> arraybolt3: that's fine.
[17:26] <cbreak> that's an _intentional_ way to lose data :D
[17:27] <arraybolt3> Fair enough, but how to unmangle things can be tricky when you don't know what you're doing.
[17:27] <cbreak> yes.
[17:27] <leftyfb> arraybolt3: future reference, if you want to revert your changes but not lose the changes, use git stash
[17:27] <arraybolt3> https://xkcd.com/1597/
[17:27] <arraybolt3> leftyfb: I'll look into it, thanks!
[17:27] <cbreak> arraybolt3: know your tools. That's a fundamental rule of tool-usage :)
[17:28] <lotuspsychje> ogra arraybolt3 seems like !phasedupdates is now ready to go! 
[17:28] <lotuspsychje> tnx for the fix (who ever it was)
[17:28] <cbreak> arraybolt3: if you're into dags, take a look: https://eagain.net/articles/git-for-computer-scientists/
[17:28] <cbreak> this helped me understand git early on
[17:28] <cbreak> well... the fundamentals at least
[17:28] <leftyfb> arraybolt3: funny enough, I still didn't understand git or bzr fully when I worked at Canonical. I learned it better at my current company 
[17:29] <cbreak> but most of git is still just a thin wrapper around these fundamentals
[17:29] <leftyfb> (I was there when bzr was still being used)
[17:31] <cbreak> whoa :O
[17:31] <cbreak> someone actually used that thing?
[17:31] <leftyfb> we did back then, yes
[17:31] <cbreak> I hardly ever saw even mercurial in the wild, and apparently bazaar was even less popular
[17:31] <arraybolt3> Welp, I probably am going to vanish back into work. I just figured out how to break KDE something fierce. :/
[18:03] <murmel> arraybolt3[m]: are they really maintaining universe for 10y?
[18:03] <murmel> couldn't find anything
[18:04] <murmel> nice, I don't have any browser which is working rn :(
[18:04] <arraybolt3[m]> murmel: That's what it looks like.
[18:05] <murmel> interestingly, a couple days ago, I wondered how canonical handles the whole container system, as no docker or podman are in main
[18:07] <murmel> huh? did ubuntu for server got more expensive? I had something reletively to 250 in my mind
[18:11] <murmel> ahh, they removed the midtier, and no option for only vm (non public cloud)
[18:12] <arraybolt3[m]> murmel: There's an Ubuntu Pro (infra-only).
[18:12] <arraybolt3[m]> And that one is only $225/yr.
[18:13] <arraybolt3[m]> Which appears to be the same as the original Ubuntu Advantage.
[18:13] <murmel> yeah, I am still figuring out the design of the webiste ;)
[18:13] <murmel> also just found it
[18:13] <arraybolt3[m]> Not sure what they're going to do with virtual servers.
[18:15] <murmel> idk, pretty sure the "full" server support wasn't $3400 before, so maybe they are included
[18:17] <murmel> yeah comparing it to rh, it seems like they go the same route (as the price is almost the same) which means unlimited vms
[18:18] <tomreyn> arraybolt3[m]: where did you read that "Ubuntu is taking on maintaining Universe as well"? (news to me, yet, but i keep missing such)
[18:18] <arraybolt3> tomreyn: https://ubuntu.com/pro
[18:19] <arraybolt3> Also in section 4 of https://ubuntu.com/pro/subscribe
[18:19] <murmel> tomreyn: it's in beta right now, frontpage of ubuntu.com/pro
[18:20] <tomreyn> wow, that'd be a big step
[18:20] <murmel> yes, i really wonder how they want to handle that
[18:21] <tomreyn> especially because some of these packages are in reeeeally sad states right now
[18:22] <arraybolt3> Seems really cool, but also somewhat worrisome to me. If a MOTU makes a change in Universe that is incompatible with a change Canonical makes in Ubuntu Pro, and then a customer upgrades to Ubuntu Pro, that would cause a regression. Maybe Canonical and the MOTU/CoreDev team will end up working together more closely? I hope it doesn't clobber the community in some ways.
[18:23] <arraybolt3> (I'm still reeling after learning about the explosion in 2019 over Stack Exchanges moderator code of conduct, where they basically shredded a bunch of their moderator community and nearly got in a libel suit (or may have gotten in a libel suit))
[18:25] <arraybolt3> Anyway, they seem to still have Universe in a "best effort" situation if you don't use full Ubuntu Pro, so hopefully that means that things will be business as usual down here and Canonical and their partners will figure out how to work with what we do, just like they work with what upstream does.
[18:33] <tomreyn> good point about MOTU package updates vs ubuntu pro security support
[20:26] <murmel> is there a reason besides pushing snaps that canonical has to be so hostile towards anything what could hinder snap adoption? (just did the upgrade to kinetic and it literally installed snap-store, while also removing my manual installed gnome-software)
[20:33] <arraybolt3[m]> murmel: With how Ubuntu works, I don't think that's a hostile move on their part. Dependencies do weird things sometimes, not because one side is being hostile, but because someone changed something in a way that made sense in one spot but ended up not making sense elsewhere. Case in point, Lubuntu is not KDE, but due to an interesting dependency problem, KDE's System Settings is getting added to the Lubuntu Kinetic ISOs by
[20:33] <arraybolt3[m]> default on accident.
[20:33] <arraybolt3[m]> We intend to fix that.
[20:39] <murmel> arraybolt3[m]: is there a way to see what do-release-upgrade marked as removable? can't find anything in the logs, besides apt where it removed the packages
[20:40] <arraybolt3[m]> I'm not sure. #ubuntu might have people who know.
[20:40] <murmel> argh, should have looked at the list :(
[20:40] <murmel> thanks