=== EriC^^ is now known as Guest5936 [01:21] sarnold: Given that you work for Canonical and probably know how this works, I'm wondering, how does the new Ubuntu Pro esm-apps system intend to interact with the existing community of MOTUs and core devs? Will changes made to Universe by the community get integrated into Ubuntu Pro on a best-effort basis, or will Canonical have to control the process of Ubuntu development more closely, or...? Anything new we need to expect with [01:21] these changes? [01:22] For instance, if Canonical integrates an LXQt security fix into Ubuntu Pro, and then someone sponsors an upload for the same package that happens to not work so well with the Ubuntu Pro version of the package, but works just fine with the community-maintained Universe version of the package, what happens? [01:23] (If some of this is private information, no worries, I just want to know how I and the rest of the community that I work with need to adjust to these changes, if there's any adjusting to be done at all.) [01:25] arraybolt3[m]: I'm not entirely sure how SRUs / devel release changes are supposed to work out; I really don't know if the sru team is prepared to make sure security fixes aren't overwritten, etc [01:28] That makes sense, it may be too early to be asking these questions. At any rate, I'm excited to see where Ubuntu's going and think that Ubuntu Pro was a fantastic idea. I personally probably won't be enabling it since I do Ubuntu development work to some degree and so I should use the same packages I'm working with, but I might just enable it on an IRC bouncer server or something. [01:31] I just enabled it on my machines, and found ansible graphicsmagick hello libgegl-0.4-0 libgegl-common libgraphicsmagick-q16-3 libjs-jquery-ui libmysofa1 libopenexr24 libpython2.7-minimal libpython2.7-stdlib libsdl2-2.0-0 libzmq5 lynx lynx-common python2.7 python2.7-minimal ; another machine had only libjs-jquery-ui [01:41] good morning [01:42] o/ [01:42] heya arraybolt3[m] [01:42] Ah, that lovely feeling when you know you've botched something deep in the guts of KDE while building source code but you're not sure what yet: [01:42] * arraybolt3[m] uploaded an image: (47KiB) < https://libera.ems.host/_matrix/media/r0/download/matrix.org/dMhzlhJKSjLrnQRUrtpOFpDf/image.png > [01:43] hah [01:43] aww my poor eyes [01:44] hang on, 3rd October? [01:44] it was then i learnt that arraybolt3[m] is a time traveller! [01:44] daftykins: Do what? [01:45] It says October 5 in that screenshot. [01:45] seems like a date+timestamp in the title bar :D [01:45] yeah the other one though [01:45] Oh. That's GNOME Boxes using the name of the ISO I installed the VM from to create the VM title. [01:45] ah [01:46] (And that ISO was built on October 3rd.) [01:46] This is going to be the third time today I've built a new VM so I could rebuild all of KDE Plasma. I'm trying to reproduce ONE BUG and it's giving me a run for my money. [01:47] And I've had to do this sitting on a not-all-that-comfortable chair in front of a desktop. Hopefully I'll have a new laptop in a few days here that will make that particular problem a thing of the past. [02:38] !phasedupdates [02:38] Since Ubuntu 21.04, APT now implements phased updates. This can hold back updates on some systems while they are being phased in. See https://help.ubuntu.com/community/PhasedUpdates for more info. [02:38] rocknroll [02:39] \m/ [02:45] woot! [02:47] : ) === guiverc2 is now known as guiverc === EriC^^_ is now known as EriC^^ [17:46] for someone with dislexia, they could spell just fine [17:47] yeah, it was shiftlexia ... === Eickmeyer is now known as NotEickmeyer [17:48] it was intentional [17:49] yup, intentional shiflexia maxima ... [17:49] Caps lock key had a party? [17:49] totally [17:50] Oh! I write this way. So he only just figured it out? 🧐 [17:51] It'S ReAllY HArd to WrIte thiS WAY FOr mE. [17:51] they probably have some mechanism that does it for them [17:51] there's a few out there === pizzaiolo is now known as pizza [20:57] Any Snap haters? [20:58] I am here for Snap gossip [20:58] Snap lover here. [20:58] no [20:58] I think it is breaking my Focal [20:58] fluxcapacitor: you have yet to give a valid reason to "hate snaps" other than "all the cool kids are doing it" [20:58] Something is up. I was a Snap defender but I may go to the dark side. [20:58] I will think long and hard. My spouse is not doing so well. I'll be back once I take care of that [21:10] idk, why do people hate on certain technologies, just don't use it [21:12] if what you like changes to incorporate a disliked technology then it doesn't really leave much room for avoidance [21:12] daftykins: sure, but at the same time you are not forced to use that tech, so move on [21:13] hypothetically speaking... not everyone wants to sit and distro hop everytime someone on IRC tells them it's time to change because their preferences offend their 'ears' [21:13] i'm off now, ttfn [21:14] sure, but removing snapd doesn't break ubuntu [21:14] shortsighted remark that, but again, leaving :) [21:15] daftykins: bb [21:16] Yes, my idea might be more destructive than simply removing snapd: I want to install minimal Gnome to replace the default. [21:16] Maybe someone should warn me against that before I go off on the deep end. [21:16] sounds like you are looking for a different distro then [21:17] I used to do ungodly things in my youth such as taking random distros and installing multiple desktop interfaces over the default. I stay away from those evil ways these days but this is an emergency [21:17] good luck finding a new distro [21:17] emergency? [21:17] What you are speaking of, dear friend, is tantamount to betrayal, murmel - or you tell me another way, mate? [21:18] There are other Debian derivatives but I have avoided them so far. I went through a brief stint with Manjaro which is Arch-based and that was a disaster if there ever was such a thing. [21:18] Very bad things lay awry on Manjaro [21:19] well nobody should ever use manjaro. did you ever look into debian itself? there you can go tiling wm ;) [21:19] Manjaro is like the redheaded stepchild you had who kept causing phone calls from the high school principal with invariable breakage - constant triage [21:20] there are so many things wrong with manjaro I don't wanna talk about it honestly, people should just def. walk away from it [21:20] I think Arch itself is a moronic idea. The developers take very careful time designing the environments and having ever user become a sort of make-shift mechanic so to speak is asking for trouble but it's a good way to teach people Linux admin skills [21:20] *every user [21:20] Yes, stay away [21:20] we should open #ubuntu-rant [21:21] There are noobs in here who will be tempted and she is a harlot [21:21] oO arch was created so package maintainer have it easy (while rolling) there is no thought behind it, and _especially_ arch is def. not minimal [21:21] yeah, i was just wondering when this channel became #ubuntu-distro-bashing ... [21:21] A zealous prophet once told me that Manjaro will unleash Pandora's box and she did [21:21] everyone muted 😂 [21:21] It become that way for ten minutes but I will be nice [21:22] Can I bash Android since that's technically not a distro but a closed-source Linux for instead? [21:22] I wonder if we really have #ubuntu-rant how many people would be there. definitely all the people from reddit :S [21:22] I will start it. Hold on [21:22] There - now we have Ubuntu-rant [21:22] I just created it [21:23] now post an invite in the phoronics forum ... [21:23] I suspect it will acquire no followers though but on your demand, you have it, good friend. No bloke will join though [21:23] I don't even know what that is, ogra [21:24] fluxcapacitor, a general ubuntu bashing place ... [21:24] I am flabbergasted by IRC as a whole. Apparently, IRC is referenced in the same RFCs that you find explanations for network protocols. [21:24] oh yeah, phoronix also exist [21:24] IRC is very very cool [21:24] And I do not know how Libera works, exactly other than we are subject to deviant whims which prevail through the hearts of all ops [21:24] Yet ,now since I created that channel, I believe I am one of said ops [21:25] Only racist, homophobic, sexist bigots will be eighty-sixed from my channel [21:26] Rants is not for bashing. I will set topic. It is for short-fused ephemeral ranting over unstable non-LTS releases [21:26] I will not let someone shit on our distro. I recommend Ubuntu for every noob [21:27] Once I finish onboarding paperwork for a new day job, I will return. Until then, enjoy my respite from this noise [21:31] murmel: Removing snapd doesn't break Lubuntu at least. [21:31] arraybolt3[m]: yes that's what I said ;) [21:31] fluxcapacitor: Please avoid offensive language in this channel as per the Ubuntu IRC Guidelines. [21:31] !guidelines [21:31] The guidelines for using the Ubuntu channels can be found at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/IRC/Guidelines [21:31] but on the other hand, as I use some snaps *shrug* [21:31] I cannot find enough people in here to invite. Two of you so far are not showing up as potential invites. You guys have not registered your nicks? [21:31] (As far as I am aware, anyway.) [21:31] I don't know how this works, admittedly. [21:31] (You'll probably see a duplicate message come through soon enough, Matrix is lagging horribly.) [21:31] Hold on, gents [21:32] Just ignore everything arraybolt3[m] says, it makes no sense any longer as it's suuuuper laggy. [21:32] arraybolt - one of your nick variants is invited to rants. [21:32] I will make you an ops immediately if you want. [21:32] I don't know how to do that but I will figure it out in the next half-hour or less. [21:33] I'm not sure the Ubuntu IRC Council (who owns the #ubuntu channels) will take to kindly to the existence of #ubuntu-rant, and they may have the power to have it removed or take it over. [21:33] someone tell me how to invite people who do not show up on the drop-down scrollable list [21:33] Oh, they may. I will cooperate, as my intention is not to sew chaos or discord [21:34] Holy smoke my Matrix instance is laggy. I think there's message I sent more than three minutes ago that still haven't come through. [21:34] So, someone tell me how to get their permission. My channel topic is non-offensive - yet, you did read it before your conjecture of course. You wouldn't comment without first investigating, right? [21:34] Ubuntu MATE isn't a bad idea if you dislike GNOME. [21:35] I like Gnome. The GUI is fantastic [21:35] Mate, if I'm not mistaken looks like Win 95 - isn't that used by Mint? [21:35] (Er, if you dislike Ubuntu's default GNOME.) [21:35] I don't like the Mint interface. [21:35] sarnold: Can you +q arraybolt3[m] for, like, 15 minutes? I sent some messages that made sense earlier that now make no sense since they took like four minutes to come through. [21:36] tomreyn: If you're around, ^ [21:36] Thanks. That will save us some chaos. [21:36] hehe [21:36] fluxcapacitor: mint uses cinnamon, mate is gnome2 style [21:36] matrix delay 😂 [21:37] What is going on. Is there a conspiracy against me here, mates. I have been polite to you all, despite my noise, no? [21:37] I have not attacked anyone personally [21:37] Or am I being paranoid? If I am, inform me [21:37] fluxcapacitor: Probably paranoid, we're OK. [21:37] K [21:38] fluxcapacitor: I had a couple of "careful!"s, but other than that, we're good. [21:38] Well #ubuntu-rant is up but it is not about attacking Ubuntu. I will elaborate and expand the topic to focus on bugs [21:38] But I don't want people eighty-sixed for no reason. The #ubuntu channel itself has become a help desk forum and nothing else. Mine will not be that [21:42] arraybolt3: finally, I applied for the team, user is this: https://launchpad.net/~murmel0. had to do some "housekeeping" before I wanted to pile on some more stuff [21:43] murmel: \o/ [21:43] arraybolt3: yeah over the years I had accumulated a couple lp accounts oO, which I thought I will merge into one [21:44] and had to clean up some other mess (lost my master gpg key on one account :( ) [21:44] How does one become eligible for the team. Wait, so this dude who interviewed me said he's a Debian developer. Maybe he just worked on a team without being paid. [21:45] I did not think of that. So, if I get accepted into a distro team, I have at once become a developer - not really - but is that how it could work on paper? [21:46] fluxcapacitor: If you want to start contributing to Ubuntu, for real, there's two paths you can take (or you can take both). One is to learn Debian packaging and work on the actual code behind the OS itself. The other, much easier path is to become a QA tester, reporting bugs and possibly helping to find the reason for problems. [21:46] Sounds good in theory. Although I have contributed code to samba once, doesn't make me a samba developer. [21:47] At first you're just a contributor who hangs around helping where you can. As you go, you compile a list of all of the things you've done that directly benefit the Ubuntu project, and you spend about six months contributing to Ubuntu and building that list. [21:48] Then once you've hit the six month mark, you apply for official Ubuntu Membership, present your list of contributions, get interviewed by the developers, and if all goes right, you then are an official Ubuntu Member. [21:48] That makes sense but I think the guy who did that didn't get paid so his title is just something he wore to fill up his resume. I had this great deal of respect for him but he was fronting. [21:48] I'm going to steal that idea. I will join these distro teams. Right now my resume has fluff and this is more tangible - easy to explain in an interview. [21:48] (The process might not go exactly like that necessarily - mine was somewhat different in many respects, one of which being that I skipped the interview since the people who made me a member already knew me.) [21:49] why ? it is hard work to achive what he achieved [21:50] to become a debian developer you have to have proven some kind of sustainability and quality of your work ... its not a badge you "just get" without investing a lot [21:50] I don't know. But I think he's a clever businessman ... I think he is fronting. He said my presentation was "too technical" for entry-level students. How can a teaching job for a technical subject be "too technical" - and surely it wasn't over his head as he said he's a dev. [21:50] it definitely tells me something about that person when i hold an interview [21:51] There are holes in his comments. He basically said I am hired - without any onboarding or documentation - but that I will be placed with more technical students in a few months. I think what he performed is a subtle rejection layered with bullshit [21:51] Yeah, for sure [21:51] he was an arse, mate [21:51] I think, he was a nice guy but a jackass nonetheless [21:52] Yet, he saw my LinkedIn rant so perhaps he was afraid I'd go off on him; thus, he circumvented it. Instead, I complemented him on my profile to precipitate an actual placement which was the goal [21:52] I did not dis him but I will not miss him either [21:53] This *might* not be on-topic for this room any longer, but #ubuntu-offtopic would likely be great for this. [21:54] Well, I will start ranting about it in my faux channel [21:54] OK, hold on, mate [21:54] There - you can rant about job interviews in my channel. [21:54] Solved [21:56] I know you would rather not hear this, but the #ubuntu-* namespace is reserved for actual Ubuntu thingies. [21:56] It is about bugs. I will put that in topic [21:56] Hold on, mate [21:56] as in official Ubuntu thingies i guess :P [21:57] yep [21:57] i think you could use ##? [21:57] i never really read the official rules for all of that [21:57] or, perhaps, #ubunturants? [21:58] as ## is for unofficial stuff, would def. fit [21:58] This is primarily a save place for discussing pesky bugs and wide-spread instability caused by unstable Snaps. [21:58] However, let's try to focus on Linux conversation without becoming distracted by diatribes which have nothing to do with computer culture. No racism, sexism, homophobia or bigotry will be tolerated. [21:58] dining at the ubunturant 🙂 [21:58] That solves it, mates. You are channel hating without cause or warrant. Wanton channel rejection with no basis [21:58] ogra: good food there, I hear [21:58] 😄 [21:58] delicious :D [21:59] fluxcapacitor: no, I am not. I am just letting you know that we might take over the channel if it does not conform to the CoC [21:59] That is called a coup [21:59] Wait, as for the French spelling. Hold on, mate [22:00] fluxcapacitor: Just so you're aware, hggdh is one of the official Ubuntu IRC Council members (and there's only three of them), so you should probably take what they say seriously. [22:00] You want to do this, mate: coup d'é·tat [22:00] Which is aggressive. I will shutter it before it even comes to that if deemed necessary [22:00] But it will be a coup if you do that [22:00] Oh, I just read you arraybolt3 [22:01] it is easy to solve, just don't user "#ubuntu-¨ at the start of the channel name [22:01] Yes, so he can do things like that. I will behave but seriously, I am new to IRC and this would be harmless on virtually any place like Reddit [22:01] I'm not promoting hate or the diminished state of a good distro. [22:01] Oh, you want me to do that, hggdh [22:02] K, so how will people randomly stumble upon it [22:02] No one thinks of "rant" when they first think of these channels [22:02] If I remove the appendix, no one will find it [22:02] that may be intentional [22:02] What may be intentional [22:02] It seems political but I will remove it if ordered or commanded though that feels harsh and authoritarian [22:02] well, the people looking for rant in !alis will definitely find it [22:03] OK, but hold on [22:03] does someone own the #rant-* heirarchy? :) [22:03] I'm doing something. No one is joining it anyway. Look, this is just idle noise aboutt a dead channel [22:03] hierarchy? stupid brain can't english [22:03] I am not looking to overthrow Twitter [22:03] This is seriously much to do about nothing [22:03] Looks like wez_hn does. [22:03] (Sorta anyway - he's the sole op of #rant.) [22:04] There is a #rant suffix [22:04] Hold on... [22:04] There are only three people in #rant, myself being one as I just checked ito ut [22:04] *it out [22:04] but now you do not need to rant alone ! [22:05] K, but I do need to get this joe job paper work completed [22:05] The wife's dad - also known as my father-in-law - is excited about the man's job I have undertaken [22:05] And I have to work it so I look good on paper. Onto the onboarding then [22:05] Shit, OK, I am non-binary. I did not disclose my gender there. [22:06] I was not a man nor a woman [22:06] fluxcapacitor: language, please [22:06] dont let us stop you from getting that paper work done [22:07] Indeed [22:07] What is up with the language hints, hggdh? [22:07] What is going on here which is over my head? [22:08] Something is clearly over my head. Did I curse? [22:08] not a hint. We follow the CoC. And yes, you did [22:08] I did curse several scrolls up. I thought you were referencing the last few paragraphs. Please DM me or I will DM you for specifics. I don't want the boot. Hold on, mate [22:09] three minutes ago [22:09] I DM'd hggdh [22:09] I don't want a ban here ... So, he or she can respond accordingly [22:10] just dont do it. no need for DM or ban [22:11] K ... [22:11] I will not. I think there are precocious kids on here so good thinking [22:12] I did some quick research last night. Apparently there are tech-savvy thirteen-year-olds using Linux. My nephew is seven and he has a Raspberry Pi [22:12] fluxcapacitor: you should really move this stuff to #ubuntu-offtopic [22:13] I will just lurk. I am upset only about the snaps and the non-rant rant I made caused this flare up if you want to call it that. [22:14] idk, I could rant more about other things, but definitely snaps are one of my least concerns [22:16] No, I was thinking of it a few hours ago. Ubuntu has bugs galore which you could expect from a fork of Debian unstable but it is not much worse - if even less functional - than Win 11 [22:16] If I can go 6 months without needed to reinstall, I will keep it, whatever it is [22:17] fluxcapacitor: you are doing something wrong then [22:17] No, I just experiment a lot [22:17] I think that is what Linux is for. It is running well enough [22:17] I do a lot to it. [22:17] idk, I have installs which are way older than your nephew :) by roughly 3 times the amount [22:18] If it were a server, I'd agree with you. If it were a server, I wouldn't load it up with random programs but it is not a server. Well, it does have Cockpit on it but I only use that as an experiment. [22:18] It's not a deployed server. [22:18] sure but you can just remove stuff again, it's not like windows where stuff remain in every corner (except ~) [22:19] and slow things down [22:24] arraybolt3: oh what I remember to tell you. I tried out the way your way of disabling phasedupdates (what's written in the box on the wiki page) and setting it to Always-Include with no "true" or "1" _disables_ phasedupdates .... just why [22:34] So the Snap Firefox is broken in terms of downloading forms or programs etc. Clearly, it is not broken for people defending it on here, but that is one of the reasons I was going on a Snap rant. I am over it but I did want to point to the source of one of my greivances. I don't know what version of Firefox is running right now but my Snap bookmarks [22:34] are gone so it must be something else. I can ps aux it if anyone wants to know [22:35] It was working for months then suddenly broke with no avail. Reinstalling it did not do the trick. To fix it, I'd probably have to manually delete everything in /etc or do apt auto-remove [22:35] And going with the auto-remove option can be destructive if a person isn't careful [22:36] murmel: Welcome to the world of ambiguous wording. FWIW, it's not my fault that that's the setting to disable recognition of phased updates. [22:37] No, I agree - it's no one's fault [22:37] Who applied to that Ubuntu dev page. I need the URL again, please. [22:37] someone posted it and I thought I saved it but since it is in the Snap firefox history, I don't want to rummage around for it... it's somewhere in the metadata probably in a hidden folder and grepping it is tedious [22:37] Basically all updates are either phasing or not, but setting that "Always-Include" thing makes it so your system always installs all updates even if they're not yet phased enough for your system. It's the old behavior of "apt", and it essentially "disabled" phased updates by *enabling* the installation of phasing updates. X-( [22:37] murmel: ^ [22:37] arraybolt3: hm, I really wonder why Never-Include exists then [22:38] Someoen just post that help-dev page, please. I want to join it [22:38] I need something to do or my resume [22:38] murmel: Never-Include does the opposite - if an update is phasing, your system will refuse to install it even if it's phased enough for your system. [22:38] hi [22:38] arraybolt3: sure, i get that, but when Always is already a toggle between enabling/disabling, why another one? [22:39] murmel: Right?! They actually have some questions about that in the official Discourse post about it. [22:39] i have not been here in months [22:39] arraybolt3: ahh, didn't read that for now. probably should [22:39] There's a tri-state - either always install them regardless of phasing, never install those that are phasing, or install ones that are phased enough for your system. [22:39] You can also set the settings in such a way that you get undefined behavior. I'm too chicken to find out what that does on my systems, though I may find out in a VM one of these days. [22:40] VMGuy23: o/ [22:40] arraybolt3: the last one is when you set always and MachineId or only when you set nothing? [22:40] I think the undefined state is if you set Always-Include and Never-Include to true at the same time. [22:41] The one for "only install ones that are phased enough for your system" is when you don't set anything (if I understand correctly). [22:41] arraybolt3: wow, I am quite interested to find out what happens [22:41] arraybolt3: oh probably setting nothing, with maybe the exception of MachineId as you want to transition multiple systems at one time [22:42] murmel: That sounds about right to me. [22:43] Well, the new Firefox is downloading things which is promising on the surface. [22:43] *crossing fingers and knocking on wood [22:44] Anyone here use non-Linx operating systems, beyond your phones or mobile devices, laptops not included in this query? [22:44] still wrong channel for that, but trying to figure out bsd here [22:47] Well, someone posted something about the Ubuntu bug or Ubuntu submission URL which I asked for numerous times and I feel pesky beating a dead horse but this is not Weechat; hence, I cannot grep through recorded logs to find the llink... Please, someone care to repost? [22:47] arraybolt3: man, the explanation why Always and Never exist is quite meh [22:47] bug about what? [22:48] No, one of you, and I cannot remember who, requested to join an Ubuntu website for bug tracking. I likewise want to join. [22:50] There is this business of Googling things but since someone posted it, I am asking for a repost [22:50] I will not ask again ... I don't want to cause noise [22:50] fluxcapacitor: I mean I requested to join the wiki documentation team, but that's it, if you are looking for that site, launchpad.net [23:03] Yes, thank you. that is the site. I REALLY, appreciate that, mate [23:04] I will join and redo my resume in the spirit of Ubuntu debugging or developing. I think it will look better than what I have on there, which is a bit of fluff and non-technical recruiters ironically see it as more fluff than the technical managers who understand it [23:04] Not really fluff either way but we have not fully secured an investor yet [23:29] arraybolt3: eh boring, tested what happens if you set both (Always/Never) and it always includes phased updates [23:39] I thought julian said 'undefined' if you set the magic fourth quadrant