| droid3 | hi , curious if one was to write a neat linux application that was host either locally or on a site like sourceforge,bitbucket, github,...etc | 00:03 |
|---|---|---|
| droid3 | How would it get into the main repo of like a ubuntu distro' | 00:04 |
| droid3 | Like what the process it have to go thru? | 00:04 |
| sarnold | there's two primary paths: getting into debian and getting into the snap store | 00:05 |
| droid3 | I tried canonical launchpad site and created an account years back to see if i could get a .deb file and a ppa link that work for people to utilize in ubuntu software center my software. | 00:06 |
| sarnold | yeah that should get you a lot of the way there, too | 00:06 |
| droid3 | But i really never could get the darn launchpad site to build a .deb and a ppa link that people could use | 00:07 |
| sarnold | https://wiki.debian.org/DebianMentorsFaq might be helpful for getting something into debian; there may be better pages, but this one looks promising ;) | 00:07 |
| droid3 | Isnt snaps just the new name for ubuntu software center aka a gui front end to apt-get | 00:13 |
| sarnold | no | 00:13 |
| droid3 | If so the issue is how to make a deb into the launchpad site and get a ppa for it | 00:13 |
| sarnold | snaps are pretty different | 00:13 |
| sarnold | you can probably get your application snapped up in a few hours; getting a deb building might take a few days, depending upon the complexity of whatever you're building | 00:14 |
| droid3 | ya did they make another thing we already had .deb , .rpm , .tgz for debian , redhat , slackware | 00:14 |
| droid3 | why would you go and make more things when you had those 3 type of package manager structures and file formats. | 00:15 |
| droid3 | Why more its just going to get more cumbersome in hosting stuff. | 00:15 |
| droid3 | Let me look into snaps ...but my main question for launchpad is how the heck you take your source code ,or binary file and have there site process it into a .deb /host the deb and give you a ppa link | 00:16 |
| droid3 | so everybody can download it from there gui or console package manager programs | 00:16 |
| sarnold | droid3: because all of those package formats executed the maintainer scripts as unconfined root | 00:20 |
| sarnold | droid3: we thought it'd be better if the maintainer scripts would be confined with the same confinment that's applied to the application | 00:20 |
| sarnold | droid3: re: PPA, you add a debian/ directory with a bunch of control files to say how to build the package | 00:21 |
| droid3 | wait but how is snaps different then just using say npm or maven with the binary to configure there enviroment /as an installer. | 00:24 |
| droid3 | What i am getting at is say i just built the binary and need only to have a program like maven or npm to configure there enviorment. | 00:25 |
| droid3 | well that assuming the ubuntu client has the snap manager application or gui installed on there system. | 00:27 |
| droid3 | Is this a safe assumption because alot of people use old distro that dont have snap installed. Where as .deb files from day one of package managers works. | 00:28 |
| droid3 | Its a balance between adding more software managers for the end user vs the difficulty of just figuring it out with .deb and ppa | 00:28 |
| droid3 | Its funny how windows has simple installer msi mechanisms. Where as linux/unix had to go with more of a package manager based thing because its open source and every growing variants. | 00:30 |
| droid3 | To clear up dependency hell. | 00:30 |
| droid3 | But ya assuming snap gui is on the client side then sure using yaml files one can build a snap capable software. And have it possible up in the store. | 00:31 |
| sarnold | droid3: ah but snaps brings back dependency hell! :) snaps are a single compressed squashfs filesystem with almost all the dependencies of an application baked into it | 00:32 |
| sarnold | droid3: so, when you need to update a library, you get to update all the snaps that use it individually | 00:32 |
| droid3 | Just wish for linux/unix the binary hosting of software was simplier like microsofts with just installer programs. | 00:32 |
| sarnold | snaps should be simpler; just snap install spotify or whatever and it'll download and install it for you | 00:33 |
| sarnold | there's a gui somewhere that'll let youy type in 'spotify' and give you an 'install button' to click on | 00:33 |
| sarnold | you can click your desktop background four or five times if you miss clicking 'next' a bunch :) | 00:34 |
| droid3 | ya i saw the gui it looks exactly or very close to exactly the same as software center gui was. | 00:34 |
| droid3 | except ubuntu software center relied on .deb packages and apt-get | 00:35 |
| droid3 | Just a nice front end in both cases. | 00:35 |
| droid3 | But as i said in the passed somewhere we have flatpack , appimage , snaps ...etc what going to happens is a cumbersome mess of package managers. | 00:36 |
| droid3 | I still believe it should only be one format like .deb for debian based linux's , .rpm for redhat based linux's, and perhaps .tgz for the slackware based linux's | 00:37 |
| droid3 | That covers any type of linux distro so 3 formats and enhance any package manager such as yum , apt , apt-get ...etc are design to be implement to conform to those file formats | 00:39 |
| droid3 | The problem is we dont have any easy way to upload are code and the launchpad site pop out a ppa link that usable and them hosting the .deb file | 00:40 |
| sarnold | indeed | 00:40 |
| droid3 | in there repo obviously not main ones until it gets more popularity | 00:40 |
| sarnold | building debs is not easy | 00:40 |
| sarnold | if you want to build a deb, start with https://www.debian.org/doc/manuals/maint-guide/ | 00:40 |
| droid3 | So anybody care to at launchpad to fix that. I cannt necessarily do it from the outside. | 00:41 |
| droid3 | My issue was alot of security permissions and a complicated process to go thru which valid there was no good instructions or they where just to complex and didnt work partly because of outdated....or other stuff. | 00:42 |
| droid3 | At any extent it should be easy to upload code and get a ppa that you can tell people to add to there apt source list either thru updating sources.list file or thru the preferred method add-apt-repository command | 00:44 |
| droid3 | Yet when one create a launchpad account its cumbersome and you cannt do much in this realm ???? | 00:45 |
| droid3 | It maybe because i am working with old distro before i jump to newer and i am not consistent with modern stuff. However it shouldnt be hard and it should easy / universal to pop out ppa | 00:46 |
| sarnold | droid3: read the debian new maintainer guide, that will get you started on deb packaging | 00:46 |
| droid3 | or it defeats software development slightly because you got to rely on launchpad site which cannt come thru | 00:47 |
| droid3 | well i just got done coding stuff so i kind of didnt want to start ready thru bunches of stuff just to get my software into a ppa link so it works with the package managers and looks nicely in the gui package manager front end. | 00:48 |
| droid3 | I have no problem distributing my software in source form or even as a build script with the binary / direction for install. | 00:49 |
| droid3 | But i just think end users appreciate more of a click up button install. Or sudo apt-get install command line quick thing. | 00:50 |
| droid3 | Assuming there given the ppa link for my software all they have to do is either click to install or sudo apt-get install at terminal pretty much dummy proof. | 00:50 |
| droid3 | And i got to say alot of people like it that way because look at it from there point of view they dont want to have to work on your project most like they dont want to configure it like a sysadmin. | 00:51 |
| droid3 | for the most part they just want to get it up and running effortlessly | 00:51 |
| droid3 | And the more people you can do that for the better if its good software. | 00:52 |
| droid3 | Anyway eventually i might read thru the maintainer link you gave me thanks for that. Yet currently my mind is on alot of different creative things to bother with this stuff. | 00:53 |
| droid3 | Nobody in linux back in the day thought how can we make software installing more like microsoft .msi installer one button click answer a few things your done. | 00:53 |
| droid3 | And i get it , because open source has different issues the close source | 00:54 |
| droid3 | But really throwing more tools and more package managers with front ends arent going to do it. | 00:54 |
| droid3 | To some point it will make it cumbersome. | 00:54 |
| droid3 | And then it be like the planet of the apes where we go back to just to source builds where everybody uses readme files and have to setup there enviorment and build from source | 00:55 |
| sarnold | heh, I think you're demonstrating now how little interest people have in reading the "how to build" notes :) | 00:56 |
| droid3 | everytime they want to install an application they find on github , bitbucket , sourceforge...etc | 00:56 |
| droid3 | Ya i have read so many manuals thru the years at this point i just want to get it up. No pun intended | 00:57 |
| droid3 | And get it up in a usable form. And launchpad the root cause of my lack of abilities | 00:57 |
| droid3 | to achieve this. | 00:57 |
| sarnold | if you want to make a deb, ignore launchpad entirely until you have the deb build working locally | 00:58 |
| droid3 | Its not building a local deb file it getting the .deb up with a ppa and it working for everybody. | 00:59 |
| sarnold | sure, that's the end goal | 00:59 |
| sarnold | but break problems down into smaller pieces | 00:59 |
| sarnold | get the deb building locally | 00:59 |
| sarnold | once that's fine, you can use launchpad recipes to do it for you over and over again | 00:59 |
| sarnold | if you fixate on the final step you'll never make the first step | 01:00 |
| droid3 | I can make a deb file that not the issue. But making it usable for everyone and getting a ppa for it is a different story. I imagine you have to go thru launchpad if its a ubuntu repo | 01:00 |
| droid3 | My part is the ppa because without a ppa i cannt get somebody to add my deb so there package manager and front end gui see it. | 01:01 |
| droid3 | So if there any easy method of here my deb file and out pops my ppa link for everybody then i am all set ??? | 01:02 |
| droid3 | Does it have to be a special ppa account or can a source.list file just use a regular https link from a bitbucket , github , or sourceforge website???? | 01:03 |
| droid3 | Or is there any launchpad services that will do this all for you and just give you ppa link if you upload your code or host your code with them??? | 01:05 |
| droid3 | I dont know but making software for linux/unix package managers to work with in the .deb , .rpm ....etc standard first main formats... | 01:06 |
| droid3 | Its much harder then the other end of using package managers and software. | 01:07 |
| droid3 | But if you migrate to microsoft windows its not the case at all creating software /installers dont have these issues of package managers | 01:08 |
| droid3 | Partly because close source OS dont really need these type of distro based package managers. | 01:08 |
| droid3 | close source suck because you dont have complete control. | 01:08 |
| droid3 | However opensource sucks because to many people dont agree and make to many different forms of resolving dependency hell and installing software | 01:11 |
| droid3 | Its this one issue with linux/unix that makes developers just host as source or host the binary with install scripts and hope for the best your machine is close enough to there for env. | 01:12 |
| droid3 | Even if i make the deb. I still need a ppa. Unless users just like going to a webpage and i have a link to the .deb file | 01:13 |
| droid3 | But using my own website users still have to know of my website in the first place. | 01:14 |
| droid3 | Where as hosting thru launchpad with a ppa you kind of already have it in the launchpad repo enough where it show up... | 01:14 |
| droid3 | Never mind thanks for the talk just brainstorming because i still dislike the flow of installing software for very very very noob people on linux. That dont know what there doing. | 01:15 |
| droid3 | Its almost like launchpad is like the app store or google play store ,...etc if you can get a ppa link that is. | 01:16 |
| droid3 | So my rant about .deb files isnt really my main issue its once i have a .deb file. Hosting it. | 01:16 |
| droid3 | In a manner that appeals to everyone and that would be thru a google play store like thing such as launchpad ppa links add to peoples snap or ubuntu software manager. | 01:17 |
| droid3 | So i guess in my brainstorming the issue is not really deb file format or making deb. But the issue is hosting the .deb in a manner that it always shows up easily for the ubuntu user. | 01:19 |
| droid3 | And if its not in the main repo put there by launchpad then it have to be thru a ppa aka your own personal launchpad rep. | 01:20 |
| droid3 | And that cool to then all i have to do is find some way to get the ppa popular or in the source.list file in every distro by default | 01:20 |
| sarnold | there are thousands of ppas on launchpad; none of them are in the software center | 01:20 |
| sarnold | launchpad gives you instructions you can copy-and-paste to add the ppa to your sources | 01:21 |
| sarnold | and users can add things via the software center themselves | 01:21 |
| droid3 | right but i have problems getting a ppa in the first place that my issue. | 01:21 |
| sarnold | but if you want something reachable through the gui by default, that's either getting the software into debian or that's building a snap package | 01:21 |
| sarnold | getting the ppa is easy; https://launchpad.net/~/ click "Create a new PPA" | 01:21 |
| droid3 | And if i had one my other issue is there an easy way by default that your ppa is automatically in everybody source.list file | 01:22 |
| sarnold | there is no way to get your ppa into everybody's sources.list files and there never will be. | 01:22 |
| droid3 | Or perhaps someday ubuntu would have a button to add all ppa repo checkbox or something. | 01:22 |
| droid3 | You know the way they do to change a mirror repo site source. | 01:23 |
| droid3 | But something that you check off that turns on the apt search thru all PPA | 01:23 |
| sarnold | that will never exist | 01:24 |
| sarnold | apt works by downloading package lists from configured repositories | 01:24 |
| droid3 | Just thinking out loud but at the moment it just be nice to get a ppa: link to give out to friends or post on my website | 01:24 |
| sarnold | launchpad hosts far too many ppas to make that remotely possible | 01:24 |
| sarnold | giving people a link to yours is easy | 01:24 |
| droid3 | Really they couldnt create a search like google thru ppa in a reasonable amount of time. | 01:25 |
| sarnold | go to https://launchpad.net/~/ and click the ppa you want to share. the select the URL from your browser's title bar. copy. paste it to wheover. | 01:25 |
| sarnold | https://launchpad.net/~seth-arnold/+archive/ubuntu/doghouse | 01:25 |
| sarnold | enjoy mine, for example :) | 01:25 |
| droid3 | See that what i mean how did you successfully make these | 01:28 |
| droid3 | deb https://ppa.launchpadcontent.net/seth-arnold/doghouse/ubuntu lunar main | 01:28 |
| droid3 | When ever i tried in the passed i couldnt get launchpad to build anything it just failed in the process. | 01:28 |
| droid3 | And that why i said getting the ppa was the impossible part for me. | 01:29 |
| droid3 | sort of speak. | 01:29 |
| droid3 | At least currently | 01:29 |
| sarnold | droid3: https://imgur.com/a/HgHuDdp | 01:31 |
| droid3 | Ya now i remember i had a big long discussion on why dput wasnt working for me along time ago. | 01:43 |
| droid3 | So i guess i made the ppa i just cannt upload the stuff and have it not fail out so its not a usable link. | 01:43 |
| droid3 | Also i notice you must be on lunar lobster version of ubuntu right sarnold | 01:45 |
| sarnold | droid3: no, I've got a few 22.04 systems, a 20.04 system, an 18.04 system, and a 16.04 system | 01:46 |
| droid3 | ok well did a search for doghouse got a bunch of them what ones your is another issue | 01:49 |
| droid3 | Is your the one sarnold that says take voice conversations to the moon | 01:50 |
| sarnold | droid3: no, mine is just a temporary place to put packages for a while or something like that | 01:53 |
| droid3 | Ya but your ppa is just erroring out when i sudo update. | 02:03 |
| droid3 | It does show your ppa description and the doghouse name. | 02:03 |
| droid3 | Is this just a test dummy ppa or do you actually have a .deb package up there ? | 02:04 |
| sarnold | I've only used it a few times, and only for a few days at a time. the last time I used it was months ago, before lunar existed; so I certainly didn't build the package for lunar :) | 02:05 |
| droid3 | Ok well i found my launchpad account and logged in. | 02:07 |
| droid3 | However i got less far as you. Because i created a PPA description | 02:08 |
| droid3 | dput ppa:...... <sources.changes> | 02:09 |
| droid3 | so i cannt get by dput apparently you have at least further then i have because you actually got a deb ppa url. | 02:09 |
| sarnold | did you properly sign your upload? does launchpad have your gpg key? | 02:22 |
| sarnold | launchpad will give you an email if there's a problem with your upload *except* if the package failed validation; if it fails validation you get no error at all | 02:23 |
| droid3 | well it specifically says you cannt upload with dput a .deb package so you got to do it with some sort of source.changes | 02:37 |
| droid3 | file | 02:38 |
| droid3 | How do you create that from the source package | 02:38 |
| droid3 | ya i think when i did it last time it didnt pass validation. WTF is so hard about get a ppa link | 02:39 |
| droid3 | Its such a convoluted piece of crap that you need to go thru to actually get what you want. | 02:40 |
| droid3 | I am going to give up but i cannt believe i came back to this. Now i remember its not .deb package creation from source it the damn ppa and dput. | 02:41 |
| droid3 | Anyway at one time i might have had a pgp key but i think i am going to give up again with this for the final time unless they some how make this an easier process. | 02:42 |
| droid3 | Like what the heck is sources.changes file what one and where do i find that. | 02:42 |
| droid3 | Ok so i found it a directory up. | 02:49 |
| droid3 | But now i get an issue of gpgme no data error after it tries to checking signature on .changes | 02:50 |
| droid3 | SO this tells me i need to probably generate a gpg key at one time i had one so now i got to refigure out where the gpg key goes in this site or something. | 02:51 |
| droid3 | Ya well forget it a last attempt at a huge pain in the as. I do see they also have snap so maybe all play with that on a boring night. | 02:55 |
| droid3 | However sarnold i give up for now | 02:57 |
| droid3 | But Flatpak vs Snaps vs Appimage .... arrrr | 03:15 |
| droid3 | So basically we dont have dependency hell we got package level hell | 03:16 |
| droid3 | now | 03:16 |
| droid3 | So what package managers fix back in the day rpm and deb files where invented. | 03:16 |
| droid3 | aka dependency hell now we got a similar problem just at the final level the installer level. | 03:17 |
| droid3 | Hence why microsoft msi installers and deploying/installing software on a windows machine is still easier for developers then binary distro package based installs on unix/linux | 03:18 |
| droid3 | :( | 03:18 |
| droid3 | Ok forget it really i hate not knowing stuff or solving it but there really no solution to this problem. | 03:19 |
| droid3 | Its like the Uncol problem analogy for program language developers back in the day. | 03:20 |
| droid3 | But much worse because most people dont adhere to the same package file format and package installer program | 03:20 |
| === Scotty_T|Away is now known as Scotty_Trees | ||
| Fantu | hardening pnowack thanks for replies | 09:28 |
| Fantu | sorry, wrong channel | 09:29 |
| === JanC_ is now known as JanC | ||
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