[02:43] <lotuspsychje> good morning
[11:14] <wez> Hai lotuspsychj3!
[17:00] <lotuspsychj3> anyone knows a handy package to auto shutdown a program after a certain time, lets say firefox snap?
[17:03] <daftykins> what's the reasoning behind, trying to parental control browsing time, or...?
[17:05] <lotuspsychj3> lets say if one forgot the close the app, it doesnt need to run all day
[17:05] <lotuspsychj3> close auto after an hour
[17:05] <lotuspsychj3> bit similar to filezilla shutdown after completed transfers
[17:09] <daftykins> i don't see the point, don't leave computers on if they're not needed
[17:12] <lotuspsychj3> the needs of a computer online is different for everyone
[17:12] <daftykins> the justifications for consumption of power are different for everyone too
[17:29] <lotuspsychj3> !info timelimit
[17:36] <arraybolt3> daftykins: Someone might want to do that to make sure the Firefox snap auto-updates properly too.
[17:38] <daftykins> pretty ridiculous imo
[17:42] <lotuspsychj3> seems like timelimit -t15 snap run firefox does the trick
[20:59] <arraybolt3[m]> I present, for your consideration, a silly attempt at a macOS-alike desktop on Lubuntu from a user who's never used a Mac in their life.
[20:59]  * arraybolt3[m] uploaded an image: (398KiB) < https://libera.ems.host/_matrix/media/v3/download/matrix.org/ocvQxfxsQIWKKraOadHHBEbK/image.png >
[21:00] <arraybolt3[m]> It's definitely not a Mac, but it kinda mimics the aesthetic I've seen from pictures and videos, and I like it.
[21:02] <daftykins> nasty
[21:03] <wez> arraybolt3[m]: The minimise, maximise and close buttons are on the wrong side!
[21:03] <arraybolt3[m]> :P
[21:03] <sarnold> I thought there'd be dozens of 'aqua-esque' screenshots on xwinman.org but I couldn't find any quickly
[21:03] <wez> Move them to the correct left Mac position :P
[21:03] <sarnold> but weird thing, I found a screenshot from a security dude http://www.xwinman.org/screenshots/fvwm2-taviso.png
[21:03] <arraybolt3> It's macOS-**alike**. Not macOS CLone.
[21:04] <arraybolt3> I don't know what I'm going to do with all the blank space on the top panel though since it doesn't have an application taskbar anymore.
[21:05] <arraybolt3> I put a CPU and Wi-Fi usage montior up there but I still have like half the panel blank.
[21:06] <wez> arraybolt3: That's how it should be :)
[21:07] <arraybolt3> sarnold: What. On earth. That doesn't look like anything Windows, GNOME, Mac, or anything!
[21:07] <crax23> Original mac os UI themes and also most windows UI themes were frozen and bad until recently. and i still don't like them. on Win7 you'd have to use an official theme patcher to have a darker theme in order to save up your eyes from mandatory white background of the file explorer or the notepad.
[21:07] <crax23> unofficial*
[21:12] <arraybolt3> I guess I need a bunch more quick launch buttons, that might help.
[21:21] <arraybolt3> Hmm, even that didn't help a whole lot :P I have lots of quick launchers, but not enough to fill all the blank space.
[21:26] <sarnold> MOAR LAUNCHERS
[21:26] <arraybolt3> Pffft, a bunch of them I don't even hardly use :D
[21:29] <daftykins> a Windows-using client used to have me make toolbar shortcuts so he could launch things lazily, i began to refuse because it's too basic to be my department
[21:32] <arraybolt3> Added a temperature monitor and a UTC clock too, that's helpful, but I still have a lot more room...
[21:34] <sarnold> https://github.com/Duroktar/YuleLog  (note: I have not read this code myself)
[21:34] <arraybolt3> sarnold: Heh, fun.
[21:48]  * arraybolt3[m] uploaded an image: (408KiB) < https://libera.ems.host/_matrix/media/v3/download/matrix.org/zzefbLwzBEJdBISpbEoZlirQ/image.png >
[21:48] <arraybolt3> Panel space problem solved.
[21:49] <arraybolt3> (The thing on the far right is a temperature monitor.)
[21:51] <arraybolt3> I also made the bottom taskbar dark, since that looks and works better.
[21:56] <arraybolt3> disk space... remaining? OK I phrased that wrong, I should have put "disk space *in use*". Much different
[22:01] <arraybolt3> ogra: That Mosaic browser looks pretty cool, I wonder how well it still works. Also, interesting that it's technically not FOSS, but it's sufficiently close as to be legally usable in 2022 for most anything as long as you aren't trying to sell it, looks like.
[22:02] <ogra> arraybolt3, it works rather awful for most current pages ... no javascript os CSS, that thing is from 1993 🙂
[22:02] <ogra> s/os/or/
[22:03] <ogra> it makes a very good text browser for html1 pages 🙂
[22:03] <arraybolt3> One project I thought of trying to do at some point was making a website that would "fix" modern web pages so that they looked nice in Lynx or whatever.
[22:04] <arraybolt3> Strip JaveScript and CSS, try to replicate the look with pure HTML, then ship it to the user. Might make stuff like that more usable for some.
[22:04] <arraybolt3> Might be difficult, though, and there's a bunch more I'm doing, so...
[22:04] <ogra> wel, stripping stuff is trivial ... "replicate the look" will be a rather challenging thing to do in software 🙂
[22:05] <ogra> (but if we wait a year or so, there will be an AI for it, i'm sure 🙂 )
[22:06] <arraybolt3> I actually have an HTML 3 book around here that shows how web pages from back then looked in Mosaic and Lynx. It talks about CSS as an experimental technology, competing with DSSSL, and also talks about S-HTTP (which is now defunct in favor of HTTPS). Cool stuff in there.
[22:09] <arraybolt3> It even has C programs for "listen" and "backtalk" (think Telnet-ish thingies) written in there, but for a non-x86 architecture. Has stuff about downloading software over FTP and using Gopher to find stuff, and it goes into detail about how the HTTP protocol works.
[22:10] <ogra> heh
[22:10] <ogra> .... gopher ...
[22:11] <arraybolt3> I don't think Google was even a search engine back then. It has stuff about Harvest and WWWW.
[22:11] <ogra> yup, that was pre-google
[22:13] <sarnold> I still miss gopher in a lot of ways
[22:14] <sarnold> all this "wait fifteen seconds for the web page to download" is so frustrating
[22:14] <sarnold> one of these days I want to poke around on project gemini.. I can't imagine it ever being more than just a niche, but it might be a fun niche all the same
[22:14] <arraybolt3> Part of me feels like the "old Web" was more efficient. Data transferred in kilobits per second - and it worked. Programs were efficient. You could live with 64 MB of RAM or less.
[22:15] <arraybolt3> Sometimes I feel a bit bad using technologies like Python since I know they're a cataclysmic waste of computing resources, though they definitely help speed up development.
[22:15] <Jeremy31> But they expect progress
[22:15]  * arraybolt3 resumes developing a Python application XD
[22:21] <ogra> well, the progress is that you do not read manpags anymore but instead of quickly glancing over text to find your info you play 3h with a slider on youtube to find the info you look for now ... 
[22:22] <sarnold> hey now, when I was converting a py2 script to py3 last night, I'll have you know I used the python docs website and four stack overflow posts and *no* youtube videos :P
[22:22] <sarnold> also: man I hate python so very very much
[22:22]  * arraybolt3 kinda likes Python, though not as much as C#
[22:23] <arraybolt3> I also don't use YouTube much when looking up info, though I make *heavy* use of StackOverflow and documentation websites.
[22:23] <arraybolt3> I pretty much learned Bash scripting that way.
[22:23] <ogra> sarnold, but *you* also know what gopher is ... i have friends and they have kids ... and i'm often enough shocked how they obtain information ....
[22:24]  * ogra shakes his cane 
[22:24] <arraybolt3> I did have to ask on Reddit for clarification in one instance though...
[22:24] <sarnold> ogra: if you say 'tiktok' I'm going to cry
[22:24] <sarnold> (I know it's tiktok)
[22:25] <ogra> you mean the condensed-milk version of youtube ? 
[22:25] <arraybolt3> This was my Reddit post: https://www.reddit.com/r/bash/comments/txykku/what_on_earth_is_test_a_even_doing/
[22:25] <sarnold> ogra: hah, I like that :)
[22:26] <sarnold> arraybolt3: hah, so gross
[22:28] <ogra> did someone mention in the thread that /bin/test is not bash ? (OP blames bash)
[22:29]  * arraybolt3 is OP, and I'm pretty sure that I was using the Bash-inbuilt "test", not /bin/test
[22:33] <ogra> arraybolt3, well, in /bin/test the -a option is a comparison option ... 
[22:33] <ogra>        EXPRESSION1 -a EXPRESSION2
[22:33] <ogra>               both EXPRESSION1 and EXPRESSION2 are true
[22:33] <ogra> (from man test)
[22:34] <ogra> while in the bash builtin -a is a file operation
[22:34] <ogra>        -a file
[22:34] <ogra>               True if file exists.
[22:34] <ogra> (from man bash)
[22:35] <ogra> so the behavior will be quite different depending on if you use #!/bin/sh or #!/bin/bash and if you use test or /bin/test in a script
[22:36] <arraybolt3> This is part of why I hate shell scripting. There's so many different "modes" it can be difficult to figure out what's doing what for why.
[22:36] <sarnold> ogra: check man bash, look for 'test expr':
[22:36] <sarnold>               expr1 -a expr2
[22:36] <sarnold>                      True if both expr1 and expr2 are true.
[22:36] <ogra> just write POSIX compliant and all is fine
[22:36] <arraybolt3> It works nice for small programs, and tbf I enjoyed writing vm-isotest (my ISO downloader and QA tester), but blah. And it's *so ugly!*.
[22:36] <arraybolt3> s/.//
[22:37] <ogra> sarnold, hah, so it is both, comparison and file operation in bas ?
[22:37] <sarnold> ogra: if I may... 'just don't write shell scripts longer than ten lines and all is fine'  :)
[22:37] <ogra> *bash
[22:37] <sarnold> ogra: yup
[22:37] <ogra> how is that totally not confusing ? 😛
[22:38] <sarnold> probably /bin/test was slow so someone shoved it into the interpreter to save all that time copying from disk to memory :)
[22:38] <ogra> you can write beautiful stuff in shell even longer than a line 🙂
[22:39] <arraybolt3> https://github.com/ArrayBolt3/vm-isotest, if anyone wants to see the tool, sarnold I think I probably showed you this already but I had fun writing it and it might come in handy for others.
[22:39] <sarnold> oh yeah this sounds familiar
[22:39] <arraybolt3> I think that's even the script I was writing that inspired the question above.
[22:39] <arraybolt3> (The one on Reddit I mean.)
[22:39] <ogra> yeah, it is funny how people freaked out about systemd swallowing all of the plumbing layer ... i have never seen anyone complain about "bash grew to 5MB integrating half of coreutils!!!!111oneone"
[22:39] <sarnold> that feels like the right timespan, anyway
[22:40] <sarnold> ogra: lol
[22:40] <arraybolt3> arraybolt3@kf-XE:~$ du -BM /bin/bash
[22:40] <arraybolt3> 2M      /bin/bash
[22:40] <arraybolt3> ogra: 5M?
[22:41] <ogra> lol
[22:41] <ogra> i made that number up for the drama 
[22:41] <arraybolt3> Even Busybox isn't a whole 5M :P
[22:41]  * arraybolt3 waits for a PPA build
[22:42] <arraybolt3> I really wish LP had a faster publisher, this latest package took about 30 seconds to a minute to build up there and now is going to take 15 to 30 minutes to publish if memory and experience serves me correctly.
[22:42] <ogra> du /bin/dash
[22:42] <ogra> 124	/bin/dass
[22:42] <ogra> bah
[22:43] <ogra> paste error
[22:43] <arraybolt3> 0       /bin/sh      (world's tiniest shell?)
[22:43] <sarnold> arraybolt3: I really wish we had things built around "sleep until a message is pushed" rather than "wake up every N minutes and see if there's work to do"
[22:43] <ogra> arraybolt3, dash is 124k ... a lot faster to load and uses a lot less ram (which is the other reason why you should write POSIX compliant)
[22:43] <sarnold> granted, some things like rebuilding the -updates and -security lists is probably better done batched
[22:43] <sarnold> but it's still :(
[22:44] <ogra> arraybolt3, /bin/sh is a symlink it is alwys the smallest shell 😉
[22:44] <arraybolt3> ogra: That's interesting, I might try to use it for some stuff then.
[22:44] <sarnold> seen this? :) http://www.muppetlabs.com/~breadbox/software/tiny/
[22:44] <arraybolt3> (And yes, I figured it was a symlink and discovered it pointed to dash)
[22:44] <ogra> i have a few teensies
[22:45] <ogra> using them as keyboard contollers
[22:45] <arraybolt3> sarnold: How safe do you rate the link? /me wants to click it but is wary of weird-looking websites
[22:45] <arraybolt3> (I should just keep a VM open for this sort of thing.)
[22:46] <sarnold> arraybolt3: it's an excellent website; for many years it was the best available documentation on the ELF executable format
[22:47] <sarnold> arraybolt3: when I wrote a linux kernel patch for signed executable support, I was using their docs constantly :)
[22:47] <arraybolt3> Oh, nice!
[22:47]  * arraybolt3 has to go afk, brb
[22:47] <ogra> sarnold, lol, i only realize now that this is not talking about optimizing C code for the teensy microcontroller ....
[22:48] <ogra> damn marketing departments !
[22:50] <sarnold> ogra: hahahahaha
[23:37] <arraybolt3> Alright, so much for brb, but I'm back now.
[23:40] <arraybolt3> sarnold: Wow, I actually am understanding what I'm reading, and it's fascinating and awesome. Thank you!
[23:44] <arraybolt3> (Just when you think he's done, you discover he's not and goes a level deeper. This is so cool.)