[00:00]  * arraybolt3[m] daily drives Lunar :P
[00:01] <arraybolt3[m]> (Once i found out Chris and Simon both did it, I was like, "Eh, I can recover if things go wrong, let's try it!")
 daily driving for writing the mnual means I can skip the step of getting screenshots off vm which is part of why I do screenshots towards the end of the cycle
[00:03] <arraybolt3[m]> Oh, smart!
[00:09] <arraybolt3[m]> @kc2bez: Installed Pipewire and uninstalled Pulseaudio, immediately Firefox goes unstable. I see "Exiting due to channel error " in the terminal.
[00:10] <arraybolt3[m]> @kc2bez: Hmm, found something of interest. "Update : Someone on gentoo forums suggested my issue was due to dependency libwebp, because I compiled it using Clang+ThinLTO.
[00:10] <arraybolt3[m]> After recompiled libwebp without LTO, the compiled firefox worked normally." This from someone getting the same or similar errors to me. Did we start enabling LTO on builds by default in Ubuntu?
[00:10] <meetingology> arraybolt3[m]: An error has occurred and has been logged. Please contact this bot\'s administrator for more information.
[00:10]  * arraybolt3[m] wonders what command I accidentally ran
[00:13] <arraybolt3> It would be worth trying Firefox on Xubuntu and see how it works, since they've switched to Pipewire. Xubuntu Lunar, I mean. (Even Ubuntu Lunar would work for this, maybe it would be better, I dunno.)
[00:15] <arraybolt3> I'm also using the plain Firefox downloaded from Mozilla's website to see if it works (I was using the SNap to test up until now.)
[00:15] <arraybolt3> And... the non-Snap version seems to work just fine? :-/
[00:15] <arraybolt3> Ah, nope, there it just crashed. OK, at least it's not Snap-specific.
[00:16]  * guiverc sees no reason for meetingology stepping in Aaron, no idea
[00:16] <arraybolt3> :P
[00:17] <arraybolt3[m]> Sigh. Welp, Pipewire on Lunar takes out Firefox. Time to do some more digging.
[00:44] <arraybolt3> On the topix of XScreenSaver, I just scrolled through every screensaver in XScreenSaver, and the only good one I found other than the current default is GLMatrix. All the others either look somewhat basic, or they look glitchy.
[00:45] <arraybolt3> I think the last modification that needs to be made to the XScreenSaver config before it's push worthy is that it needs to have a good default selected other than the existing, sometimes glitchy-looking one.
[00:45] <arraybolt3> Thoughts?
[00:45]  * arraybolt3 is trying to find something useful to do while I wait for Xubuntu to finish downloading
 Not a developer still agree
[00:46] <guiverc> there are a few xscreensavers I like, but as I recall lynorian & maybe another also liked GLMatrix; I've had no issues with that 
[00:46] <arraybolt3> Well sounds like we have a winner then!
[00:47] <arraybolt3> @Faizul: Thanks for your input! We've been trying to fight with XScreenSaver's config for a while, and that's helpful to know that it's a good one!
[00:48]  * guiverc is rather partial to BSOD as screensaver, but as a default I think it's horrific... it can give users a heart-attack I fear when it picks your $HOSTNAME & shows a Linux crash!
[00:48] <arraybolt3> ROFL that was one of the first things I did on my first Lubuntu box :D
[00:49] <arraybolt3> But yeah, seeing "severe data loss likely" is more than likely to freak someone out. I one time actually walked over to my laptop, saw the BSOD screensaver going, and had a small panic attack before I realized it was just the screensaver.
[00:49] <guiverc> :)
 Just a small input, is it possible to show wallpaper collection as screensaver? I believe most people have very good collection stored in their pc
 easy silly stuff to do is make your menu say stop
[00:50] <guiverc> @Faizul, I fear new installs (esp. live media) won't have many as we don't provide many wallpapers on our ISOs
[00:51] <arraybolt3> @Faizul: The end-user can do it pretty easily from XScreenSaver's config window. It would be possible to do though, and it would be better than the current "monitor on fire" picture that is the default currently.
[00:51] <arraybolt3> (I wasinitially worried about trying to do that, but I remembered that the XScreensaver config file is in the lubuntu-default-setting package so it wouldn't affect other flavors.)
[00:52] <arraybolt3> (Apologies for typos and weirdness, my IRC bouncer has quite a bit of lag to it and it's making my typing weird)
[00:52]  * guiverc makes heaps of typos too
[00:52] <arraybolt3> Alright, Xubuntu ISO downloaded, back to the Pipewire wars.
[00:53]  * guiverc thinks I should check my lubu zsync.. yep it's complete too, thanks for reminder arraybolt3 
[00:56] <arraybolt3> (That small discussion of BSOD brough back some good memories, I'm going to install that now.)
[01:09] <arraybolt3[m]> So... everything worked just fine in Xubuntu.
[01:09] <arraybolt3[m]> Time to see what their seed does.
[01:10] <arraybolt3[m]> Well that's confusing.
[01:12] <arraybolt3[m]> Interestingly, though, it looks like the libspa and gstreamer lines in Xubuntu's seed are botched, and so Germinate is ignoring them. My Xubuntu installation doesn't have those packages installed.
[01:12] <arraybolt3[m]> See https://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-archive/seeds/xubuntu.lunar/desktop, the Audio Support section lines have some strange corruption at the beginning.
[01:13] <arraybolt3[m]> That would be really funny if a mistake in the seed also happened to dodge a bug.
[01:24] <arraybolt3> Crud. Tried only installing Pipewire, pipewire-pulse, and wireplumber, and Firefox is still crashing on Lubuntu. So that's really weird. For some reason this only messes up Lubuntu that I can tell. Maybe the problem it Qt-related?
[01:38] <arraybolt3> OK, I think there's something causing a conflict that is the source of the problem. I just installed xubuntu-desktop on a Lubuntu system, and Firefox is also crashing relentlessly there.
[01:40] <arraybolt3> Maybe Compton or Picom?
[01:40] <arraybolt3> Those affect video displays.
[01:41] <arraybolt3> Hmm, but neither are installed on the current test VM...
[02:12] <arraybolt3> Interesting. If I leave Pulseaudio installed but use systemctl to swap over to Pulseaudio, it works.
[02:12] <arraybolt3> (Er, to swap over to Pipewire I mean.)
[02:12] <arraybolt3> Maybe uninstalling Pulseaudio is killing something then.
[02:15] <arraybolt3> OK I just uninstalled Pulseaudio, let's see what happens now. If it works, I'll see if it survives a reboot, and if that works somehow, then I say let's finish the migration, and if it shatters everything, well, it's the development release, we have room to break things.
[02:16] <arraybolt3> And since me and at least two of us daily-drive the development release, we'll also have lots of encouragement to fix it pronto if it breaks :D
[02:19] <arraybolt3> When I reboot after switching to Pipewire, then things start going haywire.
[02:35] <arraybolt3> Good grief. This time Firefox crashed, and then the crash reporting window crashed and told me "malloc(): unsorted double linked list corrupted"
[02:36] <arraybolt3> I wonder what changes after the first reboot.
[02:37]  * guiverc still hasn't replaced my primary PC, so still using Debian bookworm (not lunar) as my daily...  refurb shops now closed-for-christmas so didn't get reply to request for new box
[02:38] <guiverc> though I'm aware of two users who frequently bring up issues with dev when they occur on our discourse, so you'll hear about issues arraybolt3 without me
[02:39] <arraybolt3> Well that's good.
[02:39] <arraybolt3> OK, I'm going to try another experiment. Ubuntu Server Lunar installation, then add all of the packages in the Lubuntu seed manually but install Pipewire instead of Pulseaudio.
[02:41]  * guiverc is currently playing with hp8200 install, so as to replace this box as daily  (lunar)... but it's not high priority for me  (what my zsync was for)
[02:42] <arraybolt3> Nice
[02:43]  * guiverc adds it doesn't mean much... this box is underneath a ceiling fan & thus very nice in summer; that outweighs the OS being used in warm weather
[02:48] <arraybolt3> Right, because it's the middle of summer over there. HEre it's been bitter freezing cold...
[03:43] <arraybolt3> Alright, the experiment is in progress! Installing Lubuntu on Ubuntu Server but without the metapackage. I only skipped packages that I was pretty sure weren't the problem (like printer drivers).
[04:05] <arraybolt3> Even installing everything from scratch on a fresh Ubuntu Server instance, Pipewire is *still* not working right.
[04:08] <arraybolt3> One thing I did notice, when I didn't use Wireplumber and instead used pipewire-media-session, I got no audio, but it also didn't cause Firefox to go unstable. So I think the problem is wireplumber-related.
[04:08] <arraybolt3> But that still doesn't explain why it works on Xubuntu just fine, unless Xubuntu has any wireplumber config...
[04:08]  * arraybolt3 goes and asks Unit193/JackFrost
[05:08] <arraybolt3> Crud, he didn't do anything special. I guess there's one last thing to do - search for the problematic package.
[05:27] <arraybolt3> It just gets worse. Fresh Ubuntu Server install, only installed just a few basic packages, and Firefox is still unstable.
[05:28] <guiverc> :(
[05:30] <arraybolt3> Yet another test - this time let's do an Ubuntu Server install and try adding some minimal Xubuntu packages on top along with Firefox and pipewire. If that also fails, then perhaps there's some bug with adding Pipewire support after installation?
[05:30] <arraybolt3> If that happens, next step will be a debootstrap installation with LXQt and Pipewire. And if that works, then maybe we can risk adding it to the seed.
[05:30] <arraybolt3> (Also I'm pretty sure this is bug-report-worthy at this point, even if we do get it to work.)
[05:33] <guiverc> Sure sounds 'worthy of bug report' from your description..   
[05:33] <arraybolt3> Yeah, especially since at one point I got a malloc error.
[05:51] <arraybolt3> It *is* failing. Very, very interesting. Alright. /me cracks knuckles and prepares a debootstrap install
[06:53] <arraybolt3> HEY IT'S WORKING! I did a debootstrap installation of Ubuntu with a minimal LXQt setup and Falkon browser, with PipeWire audio. And... it's stable.
[06:54] <arraybolt3> So I have no clue what's gone wrong with starting from an installed system and building on it, but a debootstrap installation works. I think we should risk adding Pipewire to the seed.
[06:55] <guiverc> still means we got a 'needle' in the haystack search to find the cause
[06:59] <arraybolt3> Yeah, no joke. And there's still the possibility that there's a conflicting package, though I find that unlikely since Xubuntu works just fine and it can be made to fail if you start from Ubuntu Server.
[07:23] <arraybolt3> guiverc: It dawns on me, it would be a really good idea to find out what's breaking Pipewire installs on existing systems, because otherwise, even if new Lunar installations work, we're going to end up breaking all the existing ones. Which is going to mess up me, you, Simon, and probably quite a few others.
[07:25] <guiverc> yeah I know... I've not yet got lubuntu on the 8200, and actually turned on the vaio-crapbox I often use for qa-test installs alas it didn't have Lubuntu on it; I used it last with Ubuntu Desktop (lunar) for some reason..
[07:25] <arraybolt3> I'm wondering if maybe somehow wireplumber and pulseaudio end up on at the same time and that causes everything else to get scrambled?
[07:26] <guiverc> interesting point... I'd like to say I could explore; alas no time currently sorry
[07:26] <guiverc> & don't you forget to go get sleep when you need to
[07:26] <arraybolt3> heh - lately I've been going to sleep at 4 AM here.
[07:27] <arraybolt3> (My previous hypothesis still doesn't explain why things go wrong even after Pulseaudio is uninstalled...)
[07:28] <guiverc> the benefits of youth... I haven't been able to do that in (can't recall how long!)
[07:28] <arraybolt3> Well I also don't wake up until 10 or 12 :P I sort of ended up with a nocturnal sleep schedule.
[07:28] <guiverc> did you use --purge with the uninstall?
[07:28] <arraybolt3> I *think* so, at one point at least.
[07:28] <arraybolt3> I'm going to try that again though in just a bit.
[07:29]  * guiverc gotta go up the street, away for dinner tonight (normal wed evening)
[07:29] <arraybolt3> o/ See you later!
[07:30] <guiverc> o/
[07:31] <arraybolt3> What dawns on me is, I've been using `reboot` in QEMU, *not* a full power-off and restart. That's hopeful.
[07:31] <arraybolt3> I just replicated the problem, it is a PulseAudio - PipeWire conflict.
[07:33] <arraybolt3> Aha! It's working again! This whole time it's been a QEMU hardware initialization red herring caused by a warm boot. A cold boot in QEMU resolves the problem entirely.
[07:33] <arraybolt3> I've been doing warm boots for almost this whole entire time because of how my ISO tester works. Now that I'm using a persistent VM, I can actually do a cold boot, and everything works now. Woot!
[07:33] <arraybolt3> @kc2bez ^
[07:34] <arraybolt3> One last test - Lubuntu installation, swap in Pipewire, *cold boot*, test, cold boot again, test. If that works, we're golden!
[07:34]  * arraybolt3 has to go afk before doing that, but phew! This is very hopeful!
[07:44] <arraybolt3> OK, back.
[07:44] <arraybolt3> This is possibly still a bug in QEMU or maybe the Linux kernel, so I think discovering this was good, but I think we can also safely ignore it for purposes of switching to Pipewire in Lubuntu.
[08:09] <guiverc> well done for finding cause arraybolt3 & your findings (safe to assume good to switch pipewire)
[08:24] <arraybolt3> I am able to successfully migrate a normal Lubuntu Lunar installation from Pulseaudio to PipeWire and have Firefox be stable.
[08:26] <arraybolt3> guiverc: Can I have you review a PipeWire-related announcement I intend on putting on Discourse once I have the seed and metapackage updated to use PipeWire?
[08:26] <arraybolt3> (I haven't finished writing it yet.)
[08:56] <arraybolt3> (OK now I have finished writing it.)
[09:38] <arraybolt3> Thankfully, I believe so!
[10:05] <guiverc> yep I can review it, where is it arraybolt3 
[10:06] <arraybolt3> guiverc: Same link I just sent to kc2bez in -members.
[10:06]  * guiverc sees it now
[10:12] <arraybolt3> Alright, I have everything set up to update the seed and the meta. Are we ready?
 I vote yes.
[10:17] <arraybolt3> And I know Simon was already on board with this before I started, so I think we've done everything we can reasonably do to make sure this goes smoothly. I'm going to finish up with a quick task in $PERSONAL_LIFE and then get the uploads done if no one objects.
 👍
[10:29] <arraybolt3> Pushed to seed, running metapackage update script now.
[10:41] <arraybolt3> Meta updated and uploaded to both Gitea and the archive.
[10:42] <arraybolt3> And the announcement has been made.
[10:42] <arraybolt3> guiverc or kc2bez: Could you let the announcement through into Discourse? It seems to be pending approval.
[10:43] <guiverc> will do (will re-read it before accepting, better safe than sorry)
[10:44] <arraybolt3> +1
[10:48] <guiverc> thank you for all your hard work arraybolt3 
[10:54] <arraybolt3> Thank you guys! We did it!
[11:12] <arraybolt3[m]> Gosh... darn. I just accidentally killed my LXD instance again trying to shut down my RISC-V VM in it.
[11:12]  * arraybolt3[m] pouts and cries for help from Simon Quigley
[11:13] <arraybolt3[m]> And it was literally just as I got a ping in -members, I assume. 🙃
 Oopsie
[11:18] <arraybolt3[m]> Eventually I will manage to swap /sbin/shutdown for a "you really don't want to do that script". Might take me a few "oh boy there went the VM" rodeos but eventually I will manage it. I hope.
 A bit of good news ..upgrade from Lubuntu Kinetic to Lubuntu Lunar using the GUI - no errors before/after.. 😊
 Hopefully todays ISO will enable testing the pipewire/pulseaudio issue
[16:41] <arraybolt3[m]> 👍️
 Pipewire did not auto install and pulseaudio still installed (re @lubuntu_bot: (irc) <arraybolt3[m]> 👍️)
 Good to know, it might need to wait until the next daily. (re @Leokolb: Pipewire did not auto install and pulseaudio still installed)
 Thats what I thought.. (re @kc2bez: Good to know, it might need to wait until the next daily.)
[18:36] <arraybolt3[m]> @Leokolb: Last I checked, the meta still hadn't migrated, so no surprise.
[18:36] <arraybolt3[m]> Actually just migrated almost an hour ago :)
[18:38]  * arraybolt3[m] is on a different mirror and so still haven't gotten it, though
[18:44] <arraybolt3[m]> I may be pretty busy today - I have to cut wood for the winter, my desktop decided to go on vacation without my consent and will need to prodding to get it back operational, and there's various other stuff I need to attend to. I'll try to get Pipewire installed on my main system today, and report back on how it works.
[18:46] <arraybolt3[m]> @teward001: In the event you have some time and feel like bailing me out of my mess last night, I would really appreciate it if you could reboot my LXD instance since I accidentally shut it down yet again. I'm in no hurry, I can live without it easily for now. Thank you!
[19:28] <arraybolt3[m]> Alright, the PipeWire update just came through for me! It did not uninstall pulseaudio automatically, and it didn't even mark it as autoremovable so I did have to manually remove it.
[19:29] <arraybolt3[m]> @everyone in here who uses Lunar: HEADS UP: Your next system update will need some manual intervention to fully transition to PipeWire. See https://discourse.lubuntu.me/t/lubuntu-23-04-now-uses-pipewire-info-you-should-know-call-for-testing/3907
[19:29]  * arraybolt3[m] reboots to finish the switch
[19:34] <arraybolt3[m]> Rebooted, verified PipeWire is now in use, Chrome appears stable for now. Looks like a success!
 COVID sucks.  i'll stab it soonish. (re @lubuntu_bot: (irc) <arraybolt3[m]> @teward001: In the event you have some time and feel like bailing me out of my mess last night, I would really appreciate it if you could reboot my LXD instance since I accidentally shut it down yet again. I'm in no hurry, I can live without it easily for now. Thank you!)