[01:17] <JackFrost> bluesabre: What are your thoughts?
[03:05] <bluesabre> JackFrost: It raises a few other questions. Does maybe-ubiquity give us any real benefit on the main iso? If we can keep instructions the same between the two versions, that'd be preferable. For those that need the additional boot options, is Xubuntu Core the only flavor they can install/use? Are boot options accessible for the maybe-ubiquity images?
[03:07] <bluesabre> I'd be fine with dropping maybe-ubiquity from both if it doesn't have any real impact. :)
[03:23] <JackFrost> It's prettier?  I have no idea, I only know how to do it from the other.  I haven't booted main for a bit.
[03:51] <arraybolt3[m]> Personally, I like maybe-ubiquity. In fact, the Lubuntu team currently doesn't have anything like it, and we're purposefully trying to create a similar Qt-based app that we can use. But it adds needless bulk and even some slowdown to the minimal Xubuntu ISO, IMO.
[03:51] <arraybolt3[m]> (The Lubuntu equivalent we're working on is very fast, much faster than maybe-ubiquity, so that's why it works for us even though we're a light flavor.)
[03:53]  * arraybolt3[m] resumes fighting with the infinity of cables involved in setting up a desktop system somewhere else
[03:57] <arraybolt3[m]> It is a minimal ISO after all. It sacrifices nice-to-haves for tinyness. That's its whole job.
[04:01] <bluesabre> Right... but it's no smaller without maybe-ubiquity. It's just a different workflow from power-on to installer, right?
[04:01] <bluesabre> I want to make sure I really understand it so I can make our case correctly.
[04:02] <bluesabre> (The last thing I want is for this thing to drag out too long and the Canonical folks lose interest again)
[04:02] <JackFrost> Understandable.
[04:03] <Eickmeyer> So, the primary function of maybe-ubiquity is that question that is proposed when you get the first GUI and are presented with the two options: Install Xubuntu or Try Xubuntu. Not having maybe-ubiquity means you lose that functionality.
[04:03] <JackFrost> Wrong, isolinux gives you that.
[04:04] <Eickmeyer> Wrong, without maybe-ubiquity, we lost that functionality in Ubuntu Studio until I put it back.
[04:04] <Eickmeyer> (before we switched from Xfce)
[04:04] <Eickmeyer> JackFrost: I'm getting sick of you treating me like a sophomoric dev.
[04:04] <Eickmeyer> I know what 
[04:05] <JackFrost> Eickmeyer: ...I'm not.
[04:05] <Eickmeyer> I'm talking about.
[04:05] <JackFrost> Haha, that's awesome.  The grub menu has 'try or install', 'try safe mode', and "OEM install". :D
[04:05] <Eickmeyer> Yes, that's the part provided by isolinux.
[04:06] <Eickmeyer> I'm talking about the GUI piece.
[04:06] <JackFrost> Yeah I'm saying the non-gui bits only provide installer for OEM, that's just fantastic. :P
[04:08] <bluesabre> With maybe-ubiquity, do you lose access to the advanced options... or are they just accessed in another way?
[04:08] <JackFrost> I'll have to check the main desktop ISO.
[04:09] <JackFrost> (Unless arraybolt3 knows, he does a lot of testing and may have weird hardware.)
[04:11] <JackFrost> `kvm -m 1000 -cdrom` at least gives you that option.
[04:12]  * JackFrost misses isolinux, looked nicer and had the install option. :(
[04:13] <JackFrost> bluesabre: Sorry, yeah looks like I'm remembering more from the isolinux timeframe. :/
[04:17] <Eickmeyer> This image is maybe-ubiquity: https://ubuntucommunity.s3.dualstack.us-east-2.amazonaws.com/original/2X/4/49a92ce6373041a7f8f50ddf6495f8ac539ad275.jpeg . It's called "maybe-ubiquity" because ubiquity is officially launched when you hit "Install Ubuntu". Otherwise it'll just quit and continue to the live session.
[04:18] <Eickmeyer> I've gotten intimately familiar with ubiquity and its components when I was working for Kubuntu Focus.
[04:18] <Eickmeyer> If you don't have maybe-ubiquity, it'll continue to the live session without that choice.
[04:19] <bluesabre> Right... so, if I'm understanding correctly, having maybe-ubiquity doesn't prevent the user from accessing the advanced boot options?
[04:19] <Eickmeyer> Correct.
[04:19] <JackFrost> Yeah it replaces the old try/install option with a more graphical one.  Benefit of going with 'try only' is that you don't have to load the desktop.  We wouldn't want people choosing that for low memory systems (if they can't run both, they likely can't reasonably use Xubuntu anyway.)  But there might be other reasons.
[04:20] <Eickmeyer> Well, it doesn't load the desktop at all in this case. Instead, it loads "Ubiquity DM" which is its own display manager and, in your case, uses Xfce as the WM.
[04:20] <Eickmeyer> Very lightweight.
[04:22] <bluesabre> Right, Xubuntu desktop doesn't get loaded unless they select try. Otherwise, it's just Ubiquity running.
[04:22] <Eickmeyer> Correct.
[04:35] <JackFrost> ...Huh, one can still run the desktop and installer on 1G of ram.  Didn't expect that.
[04:41] <bluesabre> Nifty. Restored maybe-ubiquity to minimal. Will follow up if we get any additional feedback.
[04:49] <JackFrost> Yeah sorry about that one.  I imagine there's a boot param to invoke ubiquity DM and it's just lacking, but a bit of a moot point.
[04:51] <JackFrost> bluesabre: Thanks again for pushing this, I didn't expect it to make it anywhere this time around. :3
[04:56] <bluesabre> Just happened to be good timing.
[05:01] <JackFrost> Looks like the install-only option is just over 100M lighter on resources, though not sure we're still aiming for under 1G ram.  We do hit there at least.
[05:08] <arraybolt3> JackFrost: Sorry to miss your message for a while.
[05:08] <arraybolt3> Yeah, the advanced options in GRUB are still accessible with or without.
[05:08] <arraybolt3> *with or without maybe-ubiquity
[05:08] <arraybolt3> But it looks like you got things sorted already.
[05:09] <arraybolt3> (re: may have weird hardware) I think it's safe to say that I have plenty of weird hardware. :D
[05:11] <arraybolt3> Speaking of testing, I assume I'll be finding any new Minimal ISOs on iso.qa.ubuntu.com from now on, rather than on unit193.net?
[05:11] <JackFrost> Presuming this gets merged, yes.
[05:14] <arraybolt3> Nice.
[05:19] <JackFrost> Then I'll be given my freedom. \o/
[05:23] <bluesabre> Neverrrr
[05:23] <bluesabre> Then we’ll just find a new problem for you ;)
[05:24]  * arraybolt3 makes bluesabre a Launchpad sysadmin and tells the rest of the staff to go home
[05:26] <JackFrost> ...Urgh, this means I'll have to change my site to...say other words. :/
[05:36] <JackFrost> Did you see that you can test out xfce4-panel and xfdesktop on sway/etc?
[19:24] <pleia2> JackFrost: I think pinging me first to make sure I'm around in case of issues is probably best re:reboots :) 
[19:24] <pleia2> I recall us briefly pondering using native kernels instead of the linode ones, but I kinda lost the thread on that
[19:25] <pleia2> anyway, I booted into the latest Linode kernel
[23:48] <JackFrost> pleia2: Yeah, since new Linodes use distro kernels I figure that's preferred.  I also just saw the postfix in Debian added support for "linux 6", so I'm gonna check if that actually breaks on kenerl 6.x. :3