lotuspsychjegood morning03:26
matt3is better opensource or closed ? ;)18:36
tomreynthat's impossible to tell because closed source is closed18:48
ograwell, not for everyone (someone has written it) 🙂18:49
arraybolt3Opensource generally has been higher-quality in my experience, presumably because more people are able to fix problems in it.18:49
matt3yes, thank you, and ...18:56
matt3i have done a lot of apps all open ...18:56
matt3you can study inside them ...18:57
matt3with closed no18:57
matt3you can study inside the app => you can study the source code ... :)19:03
matt3with opensource => you can study inside the app ;)19:09
matt3with closed source apps => you can only use them, the apps ...19:14
matt3closed apps => only use19:15
matt3opensource => use + study19:15
matt3opensource wins ;)19:15
matt3opensource => use + study + modify + rebuild + redistributed + gratis xD19:21
matt3with gnu license is ok ...19:32
matt3RMS => please no money xD19:35
arrayboltCBookThis isn't exactly within the topic of this room.19:35
ograseeing teward's latest mail to -release i wonder why nobody packaged tor-browser as a snap yet ... feels like a natural candidate to lock into the snap sandbox19:43
teward*drops in from orbit*19:44
tewardogra: you could ask the Tor team19:45
tewardthey produce team browser19:45
tewardtor browser*19:45
tewardffs autocorrect be sensible19:45
ogralol, stop IRCing from android !19:45
tewardogra: i could look into it but :P19:45
arrayboltCBookteam browser - the final merge of MS Edge and MS Teams! From the Tor team. D:19:45
tewardogra: i'm not, i'm IRCing from my computer.19:45
tewardand it has an adaptive keyboard on it :\19:45
teward(tablet computer)19:45
tewardogra: i'd consider snapping it but the way Tor works under the hood is it writes a lot of data to its own work dir and i'm not sure if that worsk in the snap infra19:46
tewardtor circuit caching, etc.19:46
ograwell, i guess they deemed it too hard ... browsers *are* non-trivial 19:46
arrayboltCBookThat sounds like a bind mount would fix that?19:46
arrayboltCBookNot sure if those work with Snaps though...19:46
tewardarrayboltCBook: it wouldn't19:46
tewardthe other factor is19:46
tewardtorbrowser itself is designed to launch from userspace19:47
ograas long as the dir is not a hardcoded path writes shouldnt be a prob 19:47
tewardso torbrowser-launcher takes into account that it writes to its own directory space19:47
tewardand 'installs' torbrowser in userspace in the defined path in its launcher19:47
tewardand sets up that path there19:47
tewardit's a pain19:47
arrayboltCBookteward: This sounds more like it should be dropped from Debian since it's not even designed to work right in Debian and is unsafe.19:47
tewardarrayboltCBook: Debian Privacy Team keeps it in there19:48
tewardarrayboltCBook: you're talking about Tor Browser19:48
ograwell, if i have some spare time (in some other galaxy i guess 😛) i might take a look at it 19:48
tewardnot torbrowser-launcher which in itself isn't unsafe19:48
tewardtorbrowser-launcher could theoretically be snapped and then it defaults to userspace (~/.torbrowser/) or some path for download/install19:48
ogra*at snapping it19:48
tewardbut that's its own hellhole19:48
tewardogra: if you manage to snap it make sure you get the OK from Tor beforehand19:49
ograyeah, not sure that makes a lot of sense19:49
arrayboltCBookMaybe torbrowser-installer could be made as a Snap?19:49
tewardand start with firefox snap as a base idea19:49
tewardbecause it's technically Firefox rebranded19:49
tewardand forked19:49
ograi wouldnt release it ... just create a snapcraft.yaml and offer it to them ... 19:49
tewardarrayboltCBook: possibly.  wouldn't solve the problem for those who've installed it with ebs19:49
arrayboltCBookIf it's designed to run in a user directory, then theoretically it should just download and install Tor from the official website and plop it into the user's home directory right?19:49
ograi got enough snaps in the store 🙂19:49
arrayboltCBookteward: True.19:49
tewardarrayboltCBook: again, doesn't solve the current bug19:49
tewardit's already packaged as a flatpak19:50
tewardso it should be capable to snap the launcher tool19:50
arrayboltCBookWhat is the bug?19:50
tewardyou should learn to check mailing lists :p19:50
arrayboltCBook(On a different computer without my email.)19:50
ograyeah, the launcher would be trivial i guess19:50
arrayboltCBookteward: Not everyone can access their email without turning around and using the computer behind them... alright I'll stop being lazy.19:50
tewardarrayboltCBook: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/torbrowser-launcher/+bug/2000077 19:50
-ubottu:#ubuntu-discuss- Launchpad bug 2000077 in torbrowser-launcher (Ubuntu Lunar) "Download URLs are broken" [Medium, In Progress]19:50
tewardthe problem is the "fix" is invasive19:50
tewardand isn't easy to nitpick19:51
tewardbecause it's intermingled with a ton of other things19:51
tewardit's one of those few packages where bugfixes and features come out at the same time in merges19:51
teward*sips caffeine*19:51
arrayboltCBookThis is why Universe should be used carefully for anything security-conscious.19:52
ograwell, at least you get CVE fixes now 19:52
arrayboltCBookWith Ubuntu Pro, I guess?19:52
arrayboltCBookDoes it cover Tor Browser?19:53
tewardarrayboltCBook: i mean, technically, I'm all for getting this as an MRE exception19:53
tewardbut i don't think SEcurity would take it19:53
tewardand put it in esm-apps19:53
arrayboltCBookteward: MRE?19:53
ograif there would be an official CVE for it ...19:53
tewardthere's usually not CVEs in torbrowser-launcher19:53
arrayboltCBookThat personally sounds like it would be the best idea.19:53
tewardbut because this is an "odd case" I'm going a one-off MRE request here19:53
tewardif that's approved it makes prepping the SRU's that much more easier19:54
ograi think esm-apps is for CVEs only 19:54
tewardogra: it is, and for Security team control19:54
tewardit's also a PITA right now19:54
tewardbecause users are being confused "Wait I need ESM to get any security updates now?"19:54
ograit is still in its infancy 19:54
arrayboltCBookHmm. It will be interesting to see how this plays out, I'll keep my eyes peeled.19:54
teward(see the "apt integration is too much" bug)19:54
tewardarrayboltCBook: yeah i use torbrowser-launcher so it's one of the things I keep an eye on19:54
tewardit also takes care of *updating* tor browser too so19:55
ograi'm rather worried what happens if yu dont opt in to pro ... imagine a 5y outdated install and the list of packages in the pro notice19:55
ogralikely multi-page output19:55
arrayboltCBookI mean wasn't this a thing back with Ubuntu Advantagetoo?19:55
tewardogra: "5 year old release, past standard support" = "Go upgrade ya ninny" on most platforms19:55
arrayboltCBook(add a space somewhere in there)19:55
tewardarrayboltCBook: Ubuntu Pro == rebranded with othe changes Ubuntu Advantages19:56
ograwell, 4.9y then 😛19:56
tewardat the core ESM is still ESM19:56
arrayboltCBookteward: I think he meant, as a system gets older, the list of unsupported Universe packages could get looooooooong.19:56
ograarrayboltCBook, universe security updates were never a thing ... best effort at most19:56
tewardarrayboltCBook: that applies for things in Main too sometimes19:56
arrayboltCBookImagine someone installing Kubuntu 20.04, updating, and getting a heart attack.19:56
ograthat is the actual great thing about pro19:56
tewardbut yeah universe security is usually ONLY community provided stuff19:56
tewardbut Pro doesn't covera ll of universe either19:56
ograit will ovr time 19:57
sarnoldin practice it was basically "otto prepped mariadb updates" but very little else19:57
arrayboltCBookBut if you're not getting the Pro universe updates ever because you don't use Pro but apt keeps telling you about what in Universe you're not getting updates for, that will likely gradually get longer, and longer, and longer, and just clutter the user's screen and maybe even scare them.19:57
arrayboltCBookIf it could be shortened to "You have community-supported packages with security updates in Ubuntu Pro, run "pro list esm-apps" for more info", that might be helpful and still let users who don't use Ubuntu Pro rest easy.19:59
sarnoldbut perhaps they shouldn't be resting easy19:59
ograyeah, i guess that will need some work eventually19:59
ogralike not showing the list of package but a summary once the number exceeds a threshold20:00
ograif you have not cared for it when the output takes two terminal pages, you are unlikely to care for it in the future 🙂20:01
arrayboltCBookNot to pick on Canonical, they do a great job, but this seems like one of those things that maybe could have used some more forethought before publishing it. The fact that users think that their systems are being left insecure is an indicator that something needs fixed.20:01
arrayboltCBookAnyway, I'm sure they'll sort it out somehow eventually.20:02
ograwell, the users *are* unsecure ... 20:02
arrayboltCBookNot any more than they've always been, and all of the important stuff has been taken care of, no?20:02
ograso it is good if users think about it 20:02
arrayboltCBookTrue, but they don't need to think we're strongarming them into using a freemium service that is actually optional.20:03
ogranot more than they have always been ... but now that is not necessary anymore and you *can* get them ... so it is good to tell them20:03
arrayboltCBookAnyway, my opinions are nothing more than opinions, Ubuntu is and for me always has been the best Linux distro, so I'll quit my griping and go back to doing more important things :P20:05
arrayboltCBook*for me Ubuntu is and always has been, I mean20:05
ograwell, the service has admittedly still rough edges ... and lots of room for improvement ...20:06
ograprob is that you can no really do user testing like we do with other things during the non-LTS cycles20:06
ograso 22.04 is actually the test cycle for it 20:06
ogrameow ?20:07
arrayboltCBook(cat learning to type)20:07
arraybolt3(Fun fact that I learned thanks to the above incident, try pressing Shift plus an arrow key and see what happens.)20:10
arraybolt3Shift+Up Arrow = A, Shift+Down Arrow = B, Shift+Right Arrow = C, Shift+Left Arrow = D20:11
arraybolt3(At least on my two laptops that I'm using currently.)20:11
sarnoldarraybolt3: it's staggering how many people are just *now* learning that we didn't support universe packages previously20:13
arrayboltCBookAnd people have been using Ubuntu without problems for years with that ignorance.20:14
arrayboltCBookI love the fact that Ubuntu Pro fixes that, it just seems it may be being pushed a bit too forcefully and in ways that cause technical difficulties.20:15
arrayboltCBookAnd tbf the forcefulness isn't even the problem, it's the "wow are users even going to be able to use apt without inconvenience now?" that's worrying me.20:16
arrayboltCBookMaybe they will be able to still use it without problems, but making our users have to wade through info they don't want to see to tell them about a service they don't want to use seems... unhelpful.20:17
ograwell, it is easy to quieten by dpkg-divert'ing one file20:19
sarnoldarrayboltCBook: apparently that initramfs 'out of memory' thing is being fixed https://blog.jak-linux.org/2023/02/01/ubuntu-key-rotation/20:51

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