| Dave92f1 | Hi all. I'm a newbie and trying to understand installers, package managers, etc. | 02:00 |
|---|---|---|
| Dave92f1 | My understanding is that some things are "wrappers" around other things. I'd like clarification about some of this. | 02:01 |
| Dave92f1 | From my reading, in the GTK world (I know that's not Kubuntu) Synaptic is a GUI wrapper for apt. And apt is a wrapper for dpkg. Is that correct? | 02:02 |
| Dave92f1 | What are the equivalants for Kubuntu and QT? I think they also use apt (which again is a wrapper for dpkg if I understand correctly). | 02:03 |
| Dave92f1 | What wraps apt in Kubunut? Muon? Plasma Discover? Something else? This is where I get confused. | 02:03 |
| arraybolt3 | There are some wrappers, yes. | 02:03 |
| arraybolt3 | In Kubuntu, Muon and Discover are both wrappers. | 02:03 |
| arraybolt3 | Muon is a wrapper specifically around `apt`, while Discover is a wrapper around apt, Snap, and possibly Flatpak. | 02:04 |
| Dave92f1 | OK, Muon and Discover both wrap...apt? | 02:04 |
| arraybolt3 | All of which are app installation systems for Linux. | 02:04 |
| Dave92f1 | Yes, I read that Discover handles snap and flatpak. Does that mean if I have/use Discover, I don't need to use the snap store? | 02:04 |
| arraybolt3 | True. You can install Snaps through Discover. | 02:05 |
| arraybolt3 | So with Discover, the Snap Store is not needed. | 02:06 |
| Dave92f1 | What role does kPackage play here? | 02:06 |
| arraybolt3 | The reason for all of these wrappers is that each one is designed to do a particular job using the other ones as a tool. For instance, dpkg *can* be used to install software, but *ow* it would be so difficult because of how low-level it is. apt wraps dpkg and makes things much easier. Discover and Muon then wrap apt and let you use it (and other systems) with a GUI. | 02:07 |
| Dave92f1 | If I use Discover, do I also need Muon? | 02:07 |
| arraybolt3 | Dave92f1: kPackage? | 02:07 |
| Dave92f1 | Wikipedia says kPackage "was KDE's package manager frontend". I can't find much else about it. | 02:08 |
| arraybolt3 | Muon is sometimes more useful than Discover, but only in advanced scenarios that can be managed with the command line, so no, you don't need it, though you may find it to be more comfortable in some instances. (Personally I don't use it.) | 02:08 |
| arraybolt3 | re: kPackage - That's almost certainly an old "wrapper" that has been replaced by Discover. Lemme check... | 02:08 |
| arraybolt3 | Yeah that's old. | 02:08 |
| arraybolt3 | It looks like KPackage is no longer a GUI frontend to apt, but is now more of a component that can be used internally by other apps. | 02:09 |
| Dave92f1 | ...and Synaptic would be the GTK equivalant of...Muon? Discover? (sorry it's a bit confusing) | 02:10 |
| arraybolt3 | And the screenshot on Wikipedia appears to be from KDE 3... | 02:10 |
| arraybolt3 | Synaptic is the GTK equivalent of Muon. | 02:10 |
| arraybolt3 | Ubuntu Software is the GTK equivalent of Discover. | 02:10 |
| arraybolt3 | Muon is more low-level than Discover and lets you fiddle with the guts of your system a bit more easily. | 02:10 |
| arraybolt3 | Discover is more of an app store like Google Play or Apple's App Store. | 02:10 |
| Dave92f1 | OK, that's helpful (I'm making notes here). | 02:11 |
| arraybolt3 | To give a concrete example, you can easily install, say, an email client through Discover, whereas with Muon that may be a bit tricky. Muon on the other hand would be easy to use to fiddle with your system's kernel, which is something that Discover is probably entirely unable to do. | 02:11 |
| Dave92f1 | I know I'm asking basic questions, but I actually prefer to do things at the command line when I can. So if I learn how to use Discover and apt, I probably don't need to think about Muon or dpkg. Is that right? | 02:12 |
| arraybolt3 | Almost. Muon is entirely unneeded if you know how to use apt. dpkg is *usually* entirely unneeded, BUT, if something goes really wrong and you end up with your package manager in a bind, dpkg can help out there. | 02:13 |
| arraybolt3 | Try not to *ever* use dpkg if you can avoid it. If, on the other hand, something has gone totally wrong and you need to mess with your package manager at a very low level, dpkg shines there. | 02:13 |
| arraybolt3 | But yeah, with apt, Muon is unneeded, and dpkg is unneeded about 99.99% of the time. | 02:13 |
| Dave92f1 | Ok, great. That's really helpful. If I want to install a given software, my current (maybe mistaken) thinking is that I should look in the following order: | 02:14 |
| Dave92f1 | (1) Discover - native program (2) Discover- flatpak (3) Discover - snap (4) .deb file from developer (not sure how to install that...) (5) Wine (if a Windows program (6) a Windows VM (if a windows program won't work in Wine). Is that about right? | 02:16 |
| arraybolt3 | I'd search for Snaps before Flatpaks, but that's a personal opinion. If you prefer Flatpak over Snap, that sounds like a fine order to do things in. | 02:16 |
| Dave92f1 | For example, I tried to install Foxit Reader, couldn't find it in Discover, snap, or flatpak. But the developer offers a .deb package. But when I tried it, it really was bad compared to the Windows version. So, now I'm looking at Wine. | 02:17 |
| Dave92f1 | (developer said the .deb was from a really old no-longer-maintained version) | 02:17 |
| arraybolt3 | Sounds right! | 02:18 |
| === alkisg1 is now known as alkisg | ||
| arraybolt3 | (As in, what you're doing sounds right.) | 02:18 |
| Dave92f1 | What about, say, VSCode (Visual Studio Code)? I couldn't find that in Discover, but clearly it was written for Linux first. Where should I look for it? | 02:18 |
| Dave92f1 | The only reason I put snaps after flatpaks was the controversy about snaps. The developer of Mint really doesn't like snaps! Not entirely sure I follow his argument, tho. | 02:20 |
| arraybolt3 | VSCode is available as a Snap. | 02:20 |
| Dave92f1 | But my (very limited) experience is that the snaps I've tried work better than the flatpaks. | 02:20 |
| Dave92f1 | OK, somehow I must have missed it. | 02:21 |
| Dave92f1 | I'm trying to get back into Kubuntu as I'm typing this but I seem to have messed up the system. When I reboot I get an on-screen keyboard for some reason. | 02:21 |
| arraybolt3 | (It might just be called `code` for some reason.) | 02:22 |
| arraybolt3 | On-screen keyboard? That actually sounds worryingly familiar... | 02:23 |
| Dave92f1 | If I hit the (on screen) Enter key with my mouse, I get an unfamiliar login page with a person icon, my user name under that, and a box for the password. I type my login password, hit enter, and ...nothing at all. Just sits there with my password still in the box [OOOOOOO] | 02:23 |
| arraybolt3 | ?!? | 02:23 |
| * arraybolt3 tries something on my end | 02:23 | |
| arraybolt3 | The unfamiliar login screen and on-screen keyboard sound like a possible (very recent) bug - Ubuntu Studio just had something go wonky and ended up with a regression that caused that. The password problem, though, should be resolvable - just try to log in again. | 02:24 |
| arraybolt3 | (Probably delete the old password that's still in the box.) | 02:24 |
| Dave92f1 | Well I backspaced over the old password and retyped it. When I hit enter, the same ... it just sits there. | 02:25 |
| arraybolt3 | Does it say "Login failed" near the bottom of the screen? | 02:25 |
| Dave92f1 | I've got a window with a blue-grey background, the time/date on the left, | 02:25 |
| Dave92f1 | No | 02:25 |
| Dave92f1 | ... the person icon with my name and the password box. Outside and below the box "Select your user and etner password". | 02:25 |
| arraybolt3 | You're hitting Enter on the keyboard, right? | 02:26 |
| arraybolt3 | Not the on-screen keyboard? | 02:26 |
| arraybolt3 | (Sorry for silly questions, just trying to figure out what's happening) | 02:26 |
| Dave92f1 | Yes. once I start typing with the (real physical) keyboard the OSK goes away. | 02:26 |
| Dave92f1 | In fact I can't get the On Screen Keyboard back unless I reboot. | 02:26 |
| arraybolt3 | OK, hang tight while I try to reproduce the problem and see if this is a bug in Kubuntu or a problem on your system. | 02:27 |
| Dave92f1 | Oh, the top of the screen has a white panel with "Session [box] Layout [flag]" and then a reboot symbol (clockwisey arrow) and power symbol. | 02:28 |
| arraybolt3 | Is there a visible "Login" button anywhere on the weird screen? | 02:28 |
| Dave92f1 | Nope. | 02:28 |
| arraybolt3 | Any button that looks like a right arrow? | 02:28 |
| Dave92f1 | The Session pulldown doesn't offer anything. | 02:28 |
| arraybolt3 | Is it set to "Kubuntu" or "KDE" by default? | 02:29 |
| Dave92f1 | No right arrow, but there's a > sign to the right of the person icon and a < to the left of it. I'm guessing those are to choose other users. But there aren't others. | 02:29 |
| Dave92f1 | Nothing says KDE or Kubuntu on the screen. | 02:29 |
| arraybolt3 | Shot in the dark, type your password and then click the > to the right of the person icon. | 02:30 |
| Dave92f1 | Except in the Virutalbox title bar "Kubuntu [Running]- Orgal VM VirutalBox" | 02:30 |
| arraybolt3 | If that doesn't work... then we're in for a debugging session. | 02:30 |
| Dave92f1 | Tried that. Nothing. But if I click on the person icon I get the on screen keboard again. | 02:31 |
| arraybolt3 | Blah. OK. Let's log into a terminal. Press Ctrl+Alt+F3. | 02:31 |
| Dave92f1 | Um. NOt reliably. OK let me try that | 02:31 |
| arraybolt3 | This will switch to a TTY, which is basically a fullscreen terminal session that you can get into even if somehow the greeter is broken. | 02:31 |
| Dave92f1 | Ctrl+Alt+F3 does ...nothing. | 02:31 |
| arraybolt3 | What keyboard are you using? | 02:32 |
| arraybolt3 | Like, the physical brand of keyboard. | 02:32 |
| arraybolt3 | Is it an Apple something-or-other? A Dell or Logitech USB keyboard, or...? | 02:32 |
| arraybolt3 | Oh, because you're in VirtualBox. Nevermind. | 02:32 |
| arraybolt3 | I forgot that this isn't a physical system. | 02:33 |
| arraybolt3 | Sigh. I had just figured it out and now you're gone... | 02:33 |
| Dave92f1 | Sorry - I ended up rebooting my physical machine. | 02:35 |
| arraybolt3 | Hey, there you are! I realized why Ctrl+Alt+F3 didn't do anything. | 02:35 |
| arraybolt3 | No problem. :) | 02:36 |
| Dave92f1 | Ya, Ctl+Alt-F3 got me a terminal on my physical host machine, not the VM. | 02:36 |
| arraybolt3 | So to get to a TTY in VirtualBox, there's a button in the VirtualBox window somewhere called "Soft Keyboard" (I think it's under the Input menu?). | 02:36 |
| arraybolt3 | Like Input -> Keyboard -> Soft Keyboard. | 02:37 |
| Dave92f1 | Yup, found the SOftw Keyboard. | 02:37 |
| Dave92f1 | Now what - I'm at the on screen keyboard again. | 02:37 |
| arraybolt3 | Yeah, launch that, and then type your password into the weird login and then press Enter on the soft keyboard and see if that works. | 02:37 |
| arraybolt3 | If that doesn't work, then do Ctrl+Alt+F3 on the soft keyboard. | 02:38 |
| Dave92f1 | Hm. I clicked Enter on the OSK, got the usual screen, typed my password on the Soft Keyboard. It registered in the box with OOOs. | 02:38 |
| Dave92f1 | But then when I press Enter on the soft keyboard, nothing. Just like before. | 02:38 |
| arraybolt3 | Yeah sounds like something broke. Do you remember enabling anything called "proposed updates" or "jammy-proposed" while you were fiddling? | 02:38 |
| Dave92f1 | Seems like the soft keyboard and the physical keyboard are doing the same thing. | 02:38 |
| arraybolt3 | Anyway press Ctrl+Alt+F3 on the soft keyboard and *that* should get you to a TTY in the VM. | 02:39 |
| Dave92f1 | No I don't think I enabled those but I did at some point click "Update All" in Discover. | 02:39 |
| Dave92f1 | Yes, that did somethign! I've the login: prompt. | 02:40 |
| arraybolt3 | OK, type your username and password into the VM now. | 02:40 |
| arraybolt3 | THe password will not make any * or O or anything like that when you type it - that's normal. | 02:40 |
| Dave92f1 | I'm in at the $ prompt. | 02:40 |
| arraybolt3 | OK, can you run "dpkg-query -s kubuntu-desktop"? | 02:40 |
| arraybolt3 | (This is one of those rare instances where dpkg comes in handy.) | 02:40 |
| arraybolt3 | Don't paste the output please. | 02:41 |
| arraybolt3 | Just tell me whether it says if it's not installed. | 02:41 |
| Dave92f1 | package 'kubuntu-desktop' not installed. | 02:41 |
| arraybolt3 | Yeah there's the problem. Something you installed removed a package that was a part of Kubuntu. | 02:41 |
| arraybolt3 | So before fixing that... | 02:41 |
| arraybolt3 | ...can you run "cat /etc/apt/sources.list | nc termbin.com 9999" and send the link that spits out? | 02:42 |
| Dave92f1 | Aha. I was removing things that didn't look useful to me. Like Thunderbird. | 02:42 |
| arraybolt3 | That will let me see some of the repos that you have installed. | 02:42 |
| arraybolt3 | Yeah, it's possible that removing programs installed by default in Kubuntu removed kubuntu-desktop, which in turn let something vital get removed. | 02:42 |
| Dave92f1 | https://termbin.com/svdnu | 02:42 |
| arraybolt3 | OK, good, I don't see anything -proposed in there. Just making sure. | 02:43 |
| arraybolt3 | So with that done, if you don't want some of the Kubuntu default programs, I think there's a way around that. | 02:43 |
| Dave92f1 | Those default programs are no big deal. I was just experiementing to see if I could get rid of them easily. I don't mind just leaving them unused. | 02:43 |
| Dave92f1 | (Like Thunderbird. Because GMail.) | 02:44 |
| arraybolt3 | Dave92f1: If you want to just get this over with, `sudo apt install kubuntu-desktop`. If you want to experiment, `sudo apt install kde-plasma-desktop`. | 02:44 |
| arraybolt3 | The former will reinstall everything that comes with Kubuntu by default, the latter will give you a more minimal set and you should hopefully be able to remove stuff you don't want. | 02:45 |
| Dave92f1 | I did the latter. It's working on it. | 02:45 |
| Dave92f1 | Done | 02:45 |
| arraybolt3 | OK, reboot the VM and see if you have anything more usable. | 02:45 |
| arraybolt3 | (You can just run `reboot` and it will do it.) | 02:45 |
| Dave92f1 | Up and running! | 02:46 |
| arraybolt3 | \o/ | 02:46 |
| Dave92f1 | And you were right - Discover has VSCode in a snap. | 02:46 |
| arraybolt3 | Niiiice. | 02:46 |
| Dave92f1 | But not Foxit Reader. But hey, I learned a lot today! | 02:47 |
| arraybolt3 | (I was sure it was in there, but not entirely sure if Discover would be able to find it, so glad to hear that it worked.) | 02:47 |
| arraybolt3 | Glad I was able to help out, and congrats! | 02:47 |
| Dave92f1 | Thanks a lot! This was just a test install, so in extremis I could have just reinstalled from the .ISO, but if this were a real emerncy, I now have an idea what to do. | 02:48 |
| Dave92f1 | I guess this is why I was told to setup Timeshift. | 02:49 |
| arraybolt3 | Heh, I've never used Timeshift. I have had to reinstall so many times though :P | 02:49 |
| IrcsomeBot | <Omar> Hi | 07:46 |
| IrcsomeBot | <Omar> Is there a way to delet windows 10 partition without formatting the whole disk? | 07:47 |
| user|67 | Hi | 07:53 |
| alkisg | Omar, sure, just boot with a live cd, and use gparted or kparted to delete the partition you want | 08:55 |
| === Hanii_ is now known as Hanii | ||
| BluesKaj | Hi all | 13:57 |
| jager | list | 16:01 |
| oerheks | !alis | 16:02 |
| ubottu | Alis is an IRC service to help you find channels. For help on using it, see «/msg Alis help list» or ask in #libera - Example usage: «/msg Alis list http» | 16:02 |
| === diana is now known as socsk | ||
| k4d1r | AHOY! | 20:09 |
| user|63 | Hi! Everyone, I have a question, there will be Kubuntu pro? Thnx | 21:34 |
| arraybolt3 | Probably not. | 21:35 |
| arraybolt3 | Kubuntu is an Ubuntu flavor. Ubuntu flavors go EOL in 9 months for interim releases, and 3 years for LTS releases (as opposed to Ubuntu's 5-year support cycle for LTS release). | 21:35 |
| user|63 | Ok, thnx | 21:35 |
| arraybolt3 | However, Ubuntu Pro should be able to be enabled and mostly work on Kubuntu. | 21:35 |
| arraybolt3 | Kubuntu is just Ubuntu with a different set of settings and preinstalled packages, so just enabling Ubuntu Pro on Kubuntu will have a similar effect to enabling it on Ubuntu. | 21:36 |
| arraybolt3 | You just won't get official support for a whole 10 years, and the KDE packages will probably not be updated after 3 years. | 21:36 |
| === mkv is now known as m4v | ||
| === angelmanjarokde is now known as angelubuntu | ||
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