lotuspsychjegood morning03:09
wezMornin' lotuspsychje 05:55
=== NeoFAT32__ is now known as NeoFAT32
leftyfbthat's a good start, now lets remove the advertisement from apt18:42
ograwell, read it ... there is info about that hidden inside 😛18:43
leftyfbnope, not good enough. Absolutely nothing has changed. advertisements do not belong in apt18:45
ograso how else would you tell people that there are available security updates ?18:45
leftyfbUnfortunately, I don't have a good answer for that. 18:46
ograright ...18:46
leftyfbFor a company with hundreds of machines who are not willing or able to pay for pro, those updates are not available and should not show up18:46
ograand there is an easy way to turn off the message once and for all18:46
ograby simply comenting a few lines in a file ...18:47
leftyfbAt the very least, if they're going to stick an advertisement in apt, make it look like an advertisement and not like something is wrong18:47
ograbut it is not an advertisement18:48
leftyfbit's 100% an advertisement 18:48
ograit is security updates that are not available without an extra step and a text that tells you how to do that extra step 18:48
leftyfbIt's a commercial product/service that is not enabled by default. You need to subscribe and possibly pay for it. That is an advertisement 18:48
ograwell, i disagree ... 18:49
leftyfbyou're disagreeing with a fact?18:49
ograi disagree about it bein an ad 18:49
leftyfbit's the same exact situation with a mobile app with "in app purchases"18:50
ogra"to be able to download these additional updates for free flick the toggle on your wumpus to the left" ... 18:51
ograthats not an ad18:51
ograits a howto ... 18:51
leftyfbexcept if I have more than 5 machines or I'm not considered an individual18:52
leftyfbthen it's a paid subscription18:52
ograwell, someone has to pay for the extra security people that need to be employed for this ... 18:52
ograbut after all you are at a free party, fre DJ, free drinks and free food ... and back there in the corner there is that whisky booth where you have to pay extra for that 32y old single malt18:53
leftyfbgreat, I'm all for that. And I hope lots of people take advantage of it. I agree with the service 100%. I do not agree with advertising for it during a critical piece of maintaining infrastructure18:53
ograwell, it is tricky since you need to have the info where the packages show up 18:54
leftyfbit is tricky, I agree18:54
leftyfbit's not an easy problem to solve18:54
leftyfbbut they need to make an effort to solve it18:54
leftyfbto be clear, the problem is how to advertise the great service without compromising the integrity of a critical tool in maintaining infrastructure 18:55
ograbut how ? beyond simpy doing better communication around it (which they make quite some effort for ATM)18:55
leftyfbnope, nobody reads the manuals18:55
leftyfbyou know this18:56
ograi dont mean the manuals ... 18:56
ograwe *actually* have managers replying on reddit threads ATM 🙂 that's what i mean about better communication 18:56
leftyfbpeople that have been doing service maintenance for decades have an expectation when doing updates. This breaks that reliability 18:56
ograwell, nothing in apts behavior actually changed 18:57
ogra... and thats the whole point of doing it where it was done18:57
leftyfbit shouldn't be up to the end user/business to search out a discord post explaining why security updates are showing up in their reports 18:57
leftyfbthat they can't install18:57
ograand you think the response would be better with that ? 18:58
ogratoday a handfull of hardcore users complain ... with the above *every user* would .... 18:58
leftyfbsorry, I'm not following18:59
ograi dnt think having a quietly growing list of updates you can not instll without telling you how to install them would be a good idea18:59
ograi'm sure my mom wuld ask me about it ... and she ics clearly only a user18:59
ogra(she does not use apt ever, but would see updates that persist without being updated)19:00
leftyfbThe list of packages that can only be installed from a commercial subscription should be displayed as such. Not mixed in with other package updates19:03
leftyfbThere is no delineation between the 219:03
leftyfbIf I have phased updated or another reason a package is held back, they are listed in with the updates that are only part of the commercial subscription 19:03
oerheksThis should be asked during install, enable pro?19:03
ograbut it is not a commercial subscription unless you actually take the beer from the free party and sell it outside on the street !19:03
ogra(which nobody forbids you to do or is angry about)19:04
leftyfbit's a commercial subscription, regardless of who qualifies for getting it for free19:04
oerheksThen again, these updates are after 5 years ?19:04
ograthey are right now19:04
leftyfboh ,sorry, yes to my topic, not oerheks  :)19:04
ograthey are security updates for universe fro day one of the existence of the distro19:05
oerheksoh oke.19:05
oerheksi thought it was just a new name for ESM19:05
ograsmething that has never existed before .... and requires additional staff on the security team to do it19:05
ogra... someone needs to pay these people 🙂19:06
ogra... preferably big enterprises wheer it does not hurt ...19:06
leftyfband again, I hope they do19:10
ogra... and if you are no a big enterprise but still live from using ubuntu and are upset abut seeing the message like leftyfb is, you can simply dpkg-divert /etc/apt/apt.conf.d/20apt-esm-hook.conf  or comment out the commands and keep using the distro as you used to ... 19:10
leftyfbif the prices weren't very enterprise level, I'd pay for myself and for my makerspace devices19:10
ograits not like it is hard 19:10
leftyfbyou know that's not the point19:11
leftyfbthe default state of ubuntu now is to mix in an advertisement for a commercial subscription with critical updates19:11
ograbut ubuntu *is* a commercial product ! (and i still disagree about the ad status of the message)19:12
oerheksi read many times how to download those updates, to publish in a ppa19:13
ograyou could also stuff them in a snap 😉19:13
oerheksmaking those universe packages a snap, o la la19:13
ograreddit and phoronix would explode 🙂19:14
oerheksit is ages ago i visited omgubuntu.. lets see 19:14
ravagethat site is 90% "install <mainline kernel version> on Ubuntu NOW"19:15
ograit is actually pretty calm recently ... 19:15
ravagei avoid :)19:15
ograah, i was referring to the discussions below the flatpak ads these posts turned into over the last years 🙂19:16
leftyfbalright, heading out for a while. I made my voice heard. I'm sure I'll get pushback and/or a very resounding "meh" from the people who make the decisions 19:17
leftyfbogra: I appreciate our discussions, even though on this matter we verymuch disagree :) 19:18
* ogra higs leftyfb 19:18
ograhugs 😛19:18
oerhekshttps://www.omgubuntu.co.uk/2023/01/ubuntu-pro-general-availability with some comments19:19
=== Aavar_ is now known as Aavar
Bashing-omUWN: Issue775 now available to our reading public: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuWeeklyNewsletter/Issue775 :D20:56
arraybolt3Sounds like there was some explosion while I was gone :P21:26
arraybolt3Personally I think the situation with apt has improved significantly with the latest change. Yes, it's an ad, but I don't care. It's a service they want to advertise, there's going to be ads. But now it actually looks like an ad, not a warning.21:27
arraybolt3*A free service, unless you're using it in enough quantity that you probably have the means to pay21:27
arraybolt3And it's not like it's expensive - $25 a year for a desktop? I spend that much on a meal at Burger King.21:28
arraybolt3(Or at least almost that much.)21:29
arraybolt3And that's a meal for three people, but whatever, you get what I was trying to say. It's not like the few outliers who have to pay for it who aren't enterprise are having to shell out an arm and a leg.21:30
Jeremy31You spent $25 at Burger King, that is more than I spent there in 20 years22:01
oerheksI spend 2009-2023 14 years, and $0 on ubuntu22:03
arraybolt3Me too.22:04
arraybolt3er, I've spend $0 on Ubuntu.22:04
arraybolt3(Not been using it that long though.)22:04
arraybolt3OK so I can't type, see y'all later!22:04
Jeremy31I started with Ubuntu about 8 years ago22:04
leftyfboh wow22:04
arraybolt3Been about 3-4 years so far.22:05
oerheksI started with opensuse, 22 years ago, and failed misserably.22:05
leftyfbthat moved my reply to the pro discord post to it's own topic. So MUCH less exposure and it doesn't look like there's any pushback from the community :/ 22:05
Jeremy31It was 2016 that I became an Ubuntu member, ubuntuforums.org and forums.linuxmint.com forums moderator22:06
leftyfb"Reason: Not a question about Pro or Pro documentation. Opinions are welcome in opinion topics"22:06
leftyfbso they offered a clarification but aren't interested in community input22:07
Jeremy31If a free VPN isn't plastering you with ads, they might be selling your browsing habit data22:13
arraybolt3Even a paid VPN might be doing that :P22:22
Jeremy31I don't need a VPN, my IP address changes a lot22:23
leftyfbogra: arraybolt3: you know, I didn't notice, but the latest version of "pro" does seem to have split off the Pro updates. That is better. Though it's still much preferred for them not to get mixed in as much22:37

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