[03:09] <lotuspsychje> good morning
[05:55] <wez> Mornin' lotuspsychje 
[16:25] <lotuspsychje> https://www.phoronix.com/news/Intel-Xe-Upstreaming-Path
[18:39] <ogra> https://discourse.ubuntu.com/t/ubuntu-pro-faq/34042
[18:42] <leftyfb> that's a good start, now lets remove the advertisement from apt
[18:43] <ogra> well, read it ... there is info about that hidden inside 😛
[18:45] <leftyfb> nope, not good enough. Absolutely nothing has changed. advertisements do not belong in apt
[18:45] <ogra> so how else would you tell people that there are available security updates ?
[18:46] <leftyfb> Unfortunately, I don't have a good answer for that. 
[18:46] <ogra> right ...
[18:46] <leftyfb> For a company with hundreds of machines who are not willing or able to pay for pro, those updates are not available and should not show up
[18:46] <ogra> and there is an easy way to turn off the message once and for all
[18:47] <ogra> by simply comenting a few lines in a file ...
[18:47] <ogra> +m
[18:47] <leftyfb> At the very least, if they're going to stick an advertisement in apt, make it look like an advertisement and not like something is wrong
[18:48] <ogra> but it is not an advertisement
[18:48] <leftyfb> it's 100% an advertisement 
[18:48] <ogra> it is security updates that are not available without an extra step and a text that tells you how to do that extra step 
[18:48] <leftyfb> It's a commercial product/service that is not enabled by default. You need to subscribe and possibly pay for it. That is an advertisement 
[18:49] <ogra> well, i disagree ... 
[18:49] <leftyfb> you're disagreeing with a fact?
[18:49] <ogra> i disagree about it bein an ad 
[18:49] <ogra> yes
[18:50] <leftyfb> it's the same exact situation with a mobile app with "in app purchases"
[18:51] <ogra> "to be able to download these additional updates for free flick the toggle on your wumpus to the left" ... 
[18:51] <ogra> thats not an ad
[18:51] <ogra> its a howto ... 
[18:52] <leftyfb> except if I have more than 5 machines or I'm not considered an individual
[18:52] <leftyfb> then it's a paid subscription
[18:52] <ogra> well, someone has to pay for the extra security people that need to be employed for this ... 
[18:53] <ogra> but after all you are at a free party, fre DJ, free drinks and free food ... and back there in the corner there is that whisky booth where you have to pay extra for that 32y old single malt
[18:53] <leftyfb> great, I'm all for that. And I hope lots of people take advantage of it. I agree with the service 100%. I do not agree with advertising for it during a critical piece of maintaining infrastructure
[18:54] <ogra> well, it is tricky since you need to have the info where the packages show up 
[18:54] <leftyfb> it is tricky, I agree
[18:54] <leftyfb> it's not an easy problem to solve
[18:54] <leftyfb> but they need to make an effort to solve it
[18:55] <leftyfb> to be clear, the problem is how to advertise the great service without compromising the integrity of a critical tool in maintaining infrastructure 
[18:55] <ogra> but how ? beyond simpy doing better communication around it (which they make quite some effort for ATM)
[18:55] <leftyfb> nope, nobody reads the manuals
[18:56] <leftyfb> you know this
[18:56] <ogra> sure
[18:56] <ogra> i dont mean the manuals ... 
[18:56] <ogra> we *actually* have managers replying on reddit threads ATM 🙂 that's what i mean about better communication 
[18:56] <leftyfb> people that have been doing service maintenance for decades have an expectation when doing updates. This breaks that reliability 
[18:57] <ogra> well, nothing in apts behavior actually changed 
[18:57] <ogra> ... and thats the whole point of doing it where it was done
[18:57] <leftyfb> it shouldn't be up to the end user/business to search out a discord post explaining why security updates are showing up in their reports 
[18:57] <leftyfb> that they can't install
[18:58] <ogra> and you think the response would be better with that ? 
[18:58] <ogra> today a handfull of hardcore users complain ... with the above *every user* would .... 
[18:59] <leftyfb> sorry, I'm not following
[18:59] <ogra> i dnt think having a quietly growing list of updates you can not instll without telling you how to install them would be a good idea
[18:59] <ogra> i'm sure my mom wuld ask me about it ... and she ics clearly only a user
[19:00] <ogra> (she does not use apt ever, but would see updates that persist without being updated)
[19:03] <leftyfb> The list of packages that can only be installed from a commercial subscription should be displayed as such. Not mixed in with other package updates
[19:03] <leftyfb> There is no delineation between the 2
[19:03] <leftyfb> If I have phased updated or another reason a package is held back, they are listed in with the updates that are only part of the commercial subscription 
[19:03] <oerheks> This should be asked during install, enable pro?
[19:03] <ogra> but it is not a commercial subscription unless you actually take the beer from the free party and sell it outside on the street !
[19:04] <leftyfb> updated/updates*
[19:04] <ogra> (which nobody forbids you to do or is angry about)
[19:04] <leftyfb> it's a commercial subscription, regardless of who qualifies for getting it for free
[19:04] <oerheks> Then again, these updates are after 5 years ?
[19:04] <ogra> no
[19:04] <leftyfb> yes
[19:04] <ogra> they are right now
[19:04] <leftyfb> oh ,sorry, yes to my topic, not oerheks  :)
[19:05] <ogra> they are security updates for universe fro day one of the existence of the distro
[19:05] <ogra> *from
[19:05] <oerheks> oh oke.
[19:05] <oerheks> i thought it was just a new name for ESM
[19:05] <ogra> smething that has never existed before .... and requires additional staff on the security team to do it
[19:06] <ogra> ... someone needs to pay these people 🙂
[19:06] <ogra> ... preferably big enterprises wheer it does not hurt ...
[19:10] <leftyfb> and again, I hope they do
[19:10] <ogra> ... and if you are no a big enterprise but still live from using ubuntu and are upset abut seeing the message like leftyfb is, you can simply dpkg-divert /etc/apt/apt.conf.d/20apt-esm-hook.conf  or comment out the commands and keep using the distro as you used to ... 
[19:10] <leftyfb> if the prices weren't very enterprise level, I'd pay for myself and for my makerspace devices
[19:10] <ogra> its not like it is hard 
[19:11] <leftyfb> you know that's not the point
[19:11] <leftyfb> the default state of ubuntu now is to mix in an advertisement for a commercial subscription with critical updates
[19:12] <ogra> but ubuntu *is* a commercial product ! (and i still disagree about the ad status of the message)
[19:13] <oerheks> i read many times how to download those updates, to publish in a ppa
[19:13] <ogra> you could also stuff them in a snap 😉
[19:13] <oerheks> making those universe packages a snap, o la la
[19:13] <ogra> hahaha
[19:14] <ogra> reddit and phoronix would explode 🙂
[19:14] <oerheks> it is ages ago i visited omgubuntu.. lets see 
[19:15] <ravage> that site is 90% "install <mainline kernel version> on Ubuntu NOW"
[19:15] <ogra> it is actually pretty calm recently ... 
[19:15] <ravage> i avoid :)
[19:16] <ogra> ah, i was referring to the discussions below the flatpak ads these posts turned into over the last years 🙂
[19:17] <leftyfb> alright, heading out for a while. I made my voice heard. I'm sure I'll get pushback and/or a very resounding "meh" from the people who make the decisions 
[19:18] <leftyfb> ogra: I appreciate our discussions, even though on this matter we verymuch disagree :) 
[19:18]  * ogra higs leftyfb 
[19:18] <ogra> err
[19:18] <ogra> hugs 😛
[19:19] <oerheks> https://www.omgubuntu.co.uk/2023/01/ubuntu-pro-general-availability with some comments
[20:56] <Bashing-om> UWN: Issue775 now available to our reading public: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuWeeklyNewsletter/Issue775 :D
[21:26] <arraybolt3> Sounds like there was some explosion while I was gone :P
[21:27] <arraybolt3> Personally I think the situation with apt has improved significantly with the latest change. Yes, it's an ad, but I don't care. It's a service they want to advertise, there's going to be ads. But now it actually looks like an ad, not a warning.
[21:27] <arraybolt3> *A free service, unless you're using it in enough quantity that you probably have the means to pay
[21:28] <arraybolt3> And it's not like it's expensive - $25 a year for a desktop? I spend that much on a meal at Burger King.
[21:29] <arraybolt3> (Or at least almost that much.)
[21:30] <arraybolt3> And that's a meal for three people, but whatever, you get what I was trying to say. It's not like the few outliers who have to pay for it who aren't enterprise are having to shell out an arm and a leg.
[22:01] <Jeremy31> You spent $25 at Burger King, that is more than I spent there in 20 years
[22:03] <oerheks> I spend 2009-2023 14 years, and $0 on ubuntu
[22:04] <arraybolt3> Me too.
[22:04] <arraybolt3> er, I've spend $0 on Ubuntu.
[22:04] <arraybolt3> (Not been using it that long though.)
[22:04] <arraybolt3> *spent
[22:04] <arraybolt3> OK so I can't type, see y'all later!
[22:04] <Jeremy31> I started with Ubuntu about 8 years ago
[22:04] <leftyfb> oh wow
[22:05] <arraybolt3> Been about 3-4 years so far.
[22:05] <oerheks> I started with opensuse, 22 years ago, and failed misserably.
[22:05] <leftyfb> that moved my reply to the pro discord post to it's own topic. So MUCH less exposure and it doesn't look like there's any pushback from the community :/ 
[22:06] <leftyfb> that/they
[22:06] <Jeremy31> It was 2016 that I became an Ubuntu member, ubuntuforums.org and forums.linuxmint.com forums moderator
[22:06] <leftyfb> "Reason: Not a question about Pro or Pro documentation. Opinions are welcome in opinion topics"
[22:07] <leftyfb> so they offered a clarification but aren't interested in community input
[22:13] <Jeremy31> If a free VPN isn't plastering you with ads, they might be selling your browsing habit data
[22:22] <arraybolt3> Even a paid VPN might be doing that :P
[22:23] <Jeremy31> I don't need a VPN, my IP address changes a lot
[22:37] <leftyfb> ogra: arraybolt3: you know, I didn't notice, but the latest version of "pro" does seem to have split off the Pro updates. That is better. Though it's still much preferred for them not to get mixed in as much
[22:37] <leftyfb> https://pastebin.ubuntu.com/p/qrPCVcWcyy/
[22:49] <oerheks> nice