[14:32] <ForeverNoob[m]> Hello, so I've finally installed 22.04, and now am trying to install the Ubuntu Studio stuff. Unfortunately, it's not going great:... (full message at <https://libera.ems.host/_matrix/media/v3/download/libera.chat/d90b93928d7a5b4ea64f09b53b2e0bad73c90566>)
[14:40] <Eickmeyer[m]> ForeverNoob: It's hard to know what's going on for sure, but open a terminal and type `sudo add-apt-repository ppa:ubuntustudio-ppa/backports` for the same effect.
[14:41] <ForeverNoob[m]> Eickmeyer: It's not only the PPA, but if I also try to install anything else from `ubuntustudio-installer` (so like lowlatency kernel, or tweaks etc.) - It seems that it just does not recognize my password.
[14:42] <Eickmeyer[m]> ForeverNoob: I need to confirm something. Did you try it from the terminal? That will help me diagnose.
[14:43] <ForeverNoob[m]> Ok will do, meanwhile this was the install log: https://paste.debian.net/plain/1275018/
[14:43] <Eickmeyer[m]> Right now I'm seeing this: polkit-agent-helper-1: error response to PolicyKit daemon: GDBus.Error:org.freedesktop.PolicyKit1.Error.Failed: No session for cookie
[14:43] <Eickmeyer[m]> That means there's something definitely wrong with your installation that is a bit over my head.
[14:43] <Eickmeyer[m]> That's not a problem with ubuntustudio-installer, that's a problem with policykit's configuration.
[14:44] <Eickmeyer[m]> That's an even deeper problem.
[14:44] <Eickmeyer[m]> Everything in that log was completely normal and expected.
[14:44]  * ForeverNoob[m] sent a code block: https://libera.ems.host/_matrix/media/v3/download/libera.chat/e84b41684a0176f1ba9fdf4c2a3e978c6e5f2dd9
[14:45] <Eickmeyer[m]> ForeverNoob: Did you see anything I just typed? It's not ubuntustudio-installer's issue. It's a deeper issue. Your system has a misconfiguration at a fundamental level.
[14:47] <ForeverNoob[m]> Ah ok, then I'll ask over at #ubuntu:libera.chat - Thought I'd try adding the PPA in terminal as you suggested.
[14:47] <Eickmeyer[m]> I'm going to have to refer you to #ubuntu:libera.chat for this. You have a policykit misconfiguration ad indicated by `polkit-agent-helper-1: error response to PolicyKit daemon: GDBus.Error:org.freedesktop.PolicyKit1.Error.Failed: No session for cookie`
[14:48] <Eickmeyer[m]> s/ad/as
[17:15] <ForeverNoob[m]> Eickmeyer: I just now did `sudo ubuntustudio-installer` and it installed everything just fine. Now all I have to do is reboot. Finger crossed 🤞
[17:23] <Eickmeyer> ForeverNoob[m]: That's because you bypassed policykit which is the mechanism that asks for your password and ran ubuntustudio-installer as root. That's a security nightmare and you should NEVER do that!
[17:23] <ForeverNoob[m]> Oh :(
[17:24] <Eickmeyer> Your. System. Is. Broken. Reformat and reinstall.
[17:25] <ForeverNoob[m]> But I just spent a week installing this system -_-
[17:25] <Eickmeyer> What flavor of Ubuntu are you using?
[17:26] <Eickmeyer> And, it shouldn't take a week. Ubiquity (the system installer) and Calamares (Lubuntu and Ubuntu Studio's system installer) make it amazingly easy for the average user.
[17:27]  * arraybolt3 has flashbacks of installing KXStudio 14.04 on a system that really did not want to let me install it
[17:27] <arraybolt3> Sometimes hardware can be... difficult.
[17:28] <ForeverNoob[m]> I mean the installation went ok, it's just all of the little gotchas and broken stuff that I have been dealing with.
[17:28] <arraybolt3> Perhaps something you thought was broken was actually working right?
[17:28] <Eickmeyer> Your policykit being broken sounds like you followed a random instruction on the internet that broke it.
[17:29] <arraybolt3> ^ that
[17:29] <Eickmeyer> Unfortunately, that is a fundamental system component that you cannot afford to have broken.
[17:29] <arraybolt3> Never run random commands from the Internet unless you know exactly what they do.
[17:29] <ForeverNoob[m]> Haven't really touched anything relating to policykit though. Just a fresh Ubuntu Server install.
[17:29] <Eickmeyer> It's Ubuntu Server?
[17:29] <arraybolt3> (Or unless you trust the person giving you the command and they know exactly what it does.)
[17:30] <Eickmeyer> We don't support running a desktop environment on Ubuntu Server, let alone ubuntustudio-installer. 
[17:30] <ForeverNoob[m]> arraybolt3: It's just little QoL stuff like... vim's clipboard not working and touchpad not being configured properly because on 22.04 it now uses `libinput` instead of Synaptics etc.
[17:30] <Eickmeyer> That's a situation where you BETTER know what you're doing.
[17:31] <arraybolt3> In that instance #ubuntu might be of more help. Your system isn't Ubuntu Studio, it's Ubuntu Server with components of Ubuntu Studio installed on it.
[17:31] <arraybolt3> Which is probably supported in #ubuntu, but not something we're going to be all that adept at handling.
[17:31] <Eickmeyer> That's just a completely unsupported situation from this flavor's scope.
[17:32] <ForeverNoob[m]> Eickmeyer: Wait what. It says it right here: https://ubuntustudio.org/ubuntu-studio-installer/
[17:32] <ForeverNoob[m]> > Ubuntu Studio Installer can add Ubuntu Studio’s benefits to any installation of Ubuntu or its official flavors*
[17:32] <ForeverNoob[m]> > *Note: unofficial Ubuntu derivatives (those NOT listed as official flavors) are not supported
[17:32] <ForeverNoob[m]> Ubuntu Server is as official as it can get?
[17:32] <Eickmeyer> Ubuntu Server is not listed in https://ubuntu.com/flavours
[17:33] <Eickmeyer> Sorry, https://ubuntu.com/desktop/flavours
[17:33] <arraybolt3> Ubuntu Server is not an Ubuntu flavor, though it is an official Ubuntu image.
[17:33] <Eickmeyer> Do not use what *I* wrote as a loophole.
[17:33] <ForeverNoob[m]> Nothing is listed there because it results in a 404
[17:33] <arraybolt3> lol
[17:33] <Eickmeyer> Second link, please.
[17:34] <Eickmeyer> Basically, don't argue with me, I wrote the doc.
[17:35] <ForeverNoob[m]> I just followed what it said on the tin. In fact Ubuntu Server can be considered more official than any other flavor because it's handled under the same org (Canonical)
[17:35] <arraybolt3> ForeverNoob[m]: You're missing the point.
[17:35] <arraybolt3> Ubuntu Server is not like the other official Ubuntu images.
[17:35] <ForeverNoob[m]> Then why not add an exception to that? Like "except ubuntu server"
[17:36] <Eickmeyer> Please, don't find a loophole here. I'm the lead of Ubuntu Studio. What I say goes here.
[17:36] <arraybolt3> And Ubuntu Server has never been an official flavor.
[17:36] <arraybolt3> Ubuntu and its official flavors means Ubuntu Desktop, Kubuntu, Lubuntu, Xubuntu, etc. Ubuntu Server is excluded because it is not what is usually meant by Ubuntu (which is Ubuntu Desktop), nor is it a flavor.
[17:37] <ForeverNoob[m]> I've just spent a week installing this thing and pulling my hair out because I followed the docs as it were written
[17:37] <arraybolt3> And installing Ubuntu Studio from the official ISO file won't work?
[17:37] <arraybolt3> I mean it's designed for a desktop use case, it's going to have 90% or more of the work done for you most likely.
[17:37] <ForeverNoob[m]> I didn't want the entire desktop and all the other fluff because my storage is very limited.
[17:38] <Eickmeyer> So, what you're saying is you have an unsupported system. I see.
[17:38] <arraybolt3> ForeverNoob[m]: Then why not start from Lubuntu and then add Ubuntu Studio Installer on top of that?
[17:38] <arraybolt3> That's officially supported, and will avoid a lot of fluff.
[17:38] <Eickmeyer> ^
[17:40] <ForeverNoob[m]> Lubuntu is still a desktop and has stuff I don't need. I just need i3 and that's it.
[17:40] <Eickmeyer> i3 isn't supported.
[17:40] <ForeverNoob[m]> Ok so you're telling me that even if you run an official flavor, and just change the DE (or WM) then suddenly it stops being supported?
[17:41] <arraybolt3> Not necessarily, but you have to have a full, *working* desktop install to start with in order to have things working right.
[17:41] <Eickmeyer> Well, it's not supported here. We don't support any desktop here other than KDE (or xfce for another month).
[17:41] <arraybolt3> Otherwise you end up missing bits and pieces that you really need.
[17:41] <ForeverNoob[m]> Oh btw, it says "Ubuntu Studio Installer can add Ubuntu Studio’s benefits to __any installation__ of Ubuntu or its official flavors"
[17:41] <Eickmeyer> It doesn't convert the flavor to Ubuntu Studio.
[17:41] <Eickmeyer> That's not how it works.
[17:42] <Eickmeyer> It remains that flavor.
[17:42] <arraybolt3> ForeverNoob[m]: You could install Lubuntu, install i3, remove the apps you don't want and then build from there.
[17:43] <ForeverNoob[m]> arraybolt3: It would have been great if I had known this a week ago, but instead I just followed the docs and didn't considering bothering people here with my seemingly superfluous question.
[17:43] <ForeverNoob[m]> ForeverNoob[m]: So strongly consider changing this because as it stands this is pretty misleading.
[17:44] <arraybolt3> We're humans, we make mistakes. Maybe the docs were accidentally ambiguous. That doesn't change how things work, but it might mean the docs could use an update. I don't think I or Eickmeyer thought that someone would try to use a GUI installer program on an Ubuntu Server installation with a desktop installed on top.
[17:44] <Eickmeyer> ForeverNoob[m]: Bear in mind, it would still remain Lubuntu, but they wouldn't support i3.
[17:44] <arraybolt3> Though it would probably work.
[17:45] <arraybolt3> (And a Lubuntu+i3 config would be supported in #ubuntu, so you wouldn't be left without help.)
[17:51] <ForeverNoob[m]> I mean... is it really the fist time someone here tries to install stuff on a minimal system?
[17:52] <ForeverNoob[m]> So you don't support anything other than KDE (or XFCE for a while) but that's only pertaining to desktop stuff, right? If I had some audio issue it wouldn't really matter what DE or WM I would be running, correct?
[17:53] <Eickmeyer> ForeverNoob[m]: Actually, yes. This is the first time someone has tried this and run into these issues.
[17:53] <Eickmeyer> Ubuntu Server is *completely* differently configured under the hood from the desktop systems. Everything from the file system to policykit is completely different.
[17:54] <Eickmeyer> It's not just a minimal system.
[17:55] <Eickmeyer> If you go to #ubuntu-server (which is technically where you should be getting support at this point), they would tell you that everything you did is unsupported.
[17:55] <Eickmeyer> That or highly unrecommended.
[17:55] <arraybolt3> And yes, I believe that if you used the Ubuntu Studio Installer on another flavor of Ubuntu (that is configured for desktop use), then the apps and the installer would be supported so long as problems you were encountering were not DE-specific.
[17:55] <Eickmeyer> ^
[17:59] <ForeverNoob[m]> Ok so is there a way I could then do some kind of dist-upgrade to transform this system to an official flavour?
[18:00] <Eickmeyer> ForeverNoob[m]: Unfortunately, no. The configuration you got is something that happens at install time.
[18:01] <arraybolt3> On the bright side, when you do a fresh install with a desktop flavor, you won't have to do a lot of those fixes you were needing. For instance, Vim's clipboard should just work, and your touchpad configuration should be working out of the box.
[18:02] <arraybolt3> At least some of the fixes you were having to do were because you were trying to use a server install as a desktop. If you start with a desktop install, your life will likely be a lot easier.
=== bhechinger_ is now known as bhechinger
[18:09] <ForeverNoob[m]> Then I might as well just try running Pipewire on this and see how far that gets me. Have heard that it makes for a relatively easier experience. Installing a new Ubuntu flavor on this machine will be difficult because all of the disks now have my backups or this running system.
[18:09] <ForeverNoob[m]> And still, the way the docs are written now is just misleading. It's like writing that all languages are welcome but in reality only certain dialects and accents are supported. I understand the need to cast a large net in order to attract a large user base, but this is the result of that, and perhaps a leading reason why users that prefer minimal systems go for distros like Arch or Void.
[18:10] <Eickmeyer> ForeverNoob[m]: Thanks for your feedback. However, it clearly points to https://ubuntu.com/desktop/flavours which makes your argument invalid.
[18:11] <Eickmeyer> Notice that's "Desktop Flavours" and does not list server.
[18:11] <Eickmeyer> Look at the URL. Closely. 
[18:11] <arraybolt3> I think he's talking about the "any install of Ubuntu *or* it's flavors" part. Ubuntu Server technically is an installation of Ubuntu.
[18:12] <arraybolt3> It should be "any install of Ubuntu Desktop or an official Ubuntu flavor", perhaps?
[18:13] <ForeverNoob[m]> Eickmeyer: Again:
[18:13] <ForeverNoob[m]> >Ubuntu Studio Installer can add Ubuntu Studio’s benefits to __any__ installation of Ubuntu _or_ its official flavors*
[18:14] <Eickmeyer> ForeverNoob[m]: Do you want to keep arguing?
[18:14] <Eickmeyer> Ubuntu Server does not qualify. I've said this.
[18:14] <ForeverNoob[m]> I'm pointing out things the same way you did.
[18:15] <Eickmeyer> ForeverNoob[m]: Server is not considered an official flavor. Read the asterisk.
[18:15] <ForeverNoob[m]> arraybolt3: Or just list what systems are possible, and what systems are supported. Then users are in a much better position to make a choice.
[18:15] <arraybolt3> ForeverNoob[m]: No amount of arguing is going to change things. Whether the manual is poorly worded or not doesn't affect what is and is not supported. We're sorry, but this is not something we can help with. The fact that you put a lot of effort into doing something in a way that doesn't work doesn't mean we can now help with that. It is unfortunate, but this is how things are.
[18:15] <Eickmeyer> ForeverNoob[m]: Argument is over. What I say goes when Ubuntu Studio is concerned. Keep arguing, you're banned from here and will get NO support.
[18:16] <Eickmeyer> Ubuntu is a Meritocracy.
[18:16] <ForeverNoob[m]> Server is not an unofficial Ubuntu derivative though, but ok.
[18:20] <Eickmeyer> It's not an official flavor as defined by https://ubuntu.com/desktop/flavours.
[18:23] <ForeverNoob[m]> (it's between parentheses though)
[18:42] <learnOPENtechBEC> ForeverNoob:  You're right the Ubuntu Studio team could have worded that better. arraybolt3  did make a great suggestion on fixing this wording for others in the future.  Have you tried doing a live boot via a USB of Ubuntu Studio. This would make sure your system could handle and run things smoothly in the first case. I know you mentioned you didn't want a new DE? But that is kinda the point of a "Studio" It has all the software
[18:42] <learnOPENtechBEC> and environment put together to play nicely with each other? What kind of device is this? Desktop? Laptop?  Where do you live? I've got a 500GB HDD SATA drive I can send you way if the only thing holding your back from experiencing UbuntuStudio more disk space?
[19:00] <Eickmeyer> ForeverNoob[m], learnOPENtechBEC: Doc updated, Ubuntu Server is now in the asterisk at the bottom of the doc.
[19:00] <Eickmeyer> Literally *NOBODY* has assumed Ubuntu Server is included before.
[22:48] <ForeverNoob[m]> <Eickmeyer> "Literally *NOBODY* has assumed..." <- I know many users (maybe most?) that think Ubuntu = Ubuntu (hence the many derivations based on it)
[22:49] <ForeverNoob[m]> FWIW I've managed to make RT audio work with qjackctl and PA. Signal audio and Audacity works as well, the rest is just minor QoL improvements.
[22:54] <ForeverNoob[m]> <learnOPENtechBEC> "ForeverNoob:  You're right the..." <- It's an old laptop (Thinkpad X220), but I'm accustomed to running i3 since most other DE's I've tried were too much for this machine (especially after a few days of uptime) - My primary purpose is to get RT audio working in order to run Bitwig Studio (also one of the major reasons I chose Ubuntu) - And then to record / playback audio via my audio interface.
[22:54] <Eickmeyer> ForeverNoob[m]: There's a difference between Ubuntu "Flavor" and Ubuntu "Derivative." In Ubuntu, we use Flavor to mean those defined at the web link that I have given you ad nauseum now. So, since I am the person in charge of what Ubuntu Studio supports and what we don't, if you will drop this discussion.
[22:55] <Eickmeyer> *please drop 
[22:57] <ForeverNoob[m]> Well I mean the docs have been updated, so hopefully it's clear not only to me now. And yes, you've also made it clear that it's your decision what US supports.
=== arraybolt3_ is now known as arraybolt3