[01:47] <BloatJanitor> So is the point that you're reading into everything and not assuming the best in accordance with the CoC even though the very thing you're attacking me with happened days ago in an unrelated channel that I figured out on my own and never set foot in again despite nobody telling me otherwise?
[01:49] <BloatJanitor> I'm sorry if my self-deprecating choice in username lends weight to such outbursts
[01:52] <sarnold> BloatJanitor: it just seems that you approach most conversations with the intention of starting a confrontation
[01:52] <BloatJanitor> Based on what?
[01:52] <sarnold> BloatJanitor: it's pretty weird, because you've been *really* helpful to me twice over in the last week :)
[01:54] <BloatJanitor> When I ask how something works and why something that isn't documented exists in offtopic, I am told it is offtopic. When I ask here I get pummeled by someone who literally signed a CoC stating the opposite, mentioning something at a location that doesn't list what it is for in the channel comments.
[01:57] <sarnold> BloatJanitor: yeah, some of the folks around are pretty big on being 'offtopic police', as it were
[02:00] <arraybolt3> BloatJanitor: Please don't understand me wrong when I say this. When you come into a channel with the name "BloatJanitor" and start mentioning alerts and tags and questioning why Ubuntu does things in a certain way, it comes off as "You people code bad and make a bad, bloated distro that I'm going to clean up now." I know that's not what you're trying to convey, but sometimes text doesn't
[02:00] <arraybolt3> convey everything very well.
[02:02] <arraybolt3> It might not be as confrontational if you look into why package ABC is needed by or helpful to package XYZ, and then if you're sure it actually isn't needed, then you could mention here "Hey, it looks like ABC isn't actually helping XYZ that much. Is there anything I'm missing here?" And then if there isn't anything you're missing, and you're absolutely sure it's really not very helpful for
[02:03] <arraybolt3> package ABC to be related to XYZ, then report it as a bug.
[02:03] <arraybolt3> But be very, *very* sure about what you're reporting as bugs. If the devs have to keep explaining why ABC actually is helpful to XYZ, they're going to want to stop dealing with you very quickly.
[02:04] <arraybolt3> And keep in mind that the people who develop Debian and Ubuntu are smart. They won't usually just throw bloat in there for no good reason. So if you're seeing what looks like bloat at a glance, it probably is *not* bloat. Therefore you need a good case for why it is bloat, rather than saying something is bloat and having someone else give you a good case for why it's not bloat.
[02:04] <arraybolt3> Just some things to think about. Hopefully this is helpful and not annoying.
[02:05] <BloatJanitor> I have seen a 10-15MB image of a developer in the cheese package.
[02:05] <arraybolt3> I'm not saying that people don't make mistakes, I'm just saying that care is required here.
[02:05] <BloatJanitor> What I run into often is things pass with time as they do or there is an unlisted condition for something to happen that wasn't mentioned.
[02:07] <arraybolt3> Another thing you might want to think about is, for every piece of "bloat" you ask for someone to help with, you're asking them to take possibly hours of their time, and maybe multiple people's time, should they actually dive into fixing it. That takes time away from fixing critical bugs, developing high-priority features, etc.
[02:08] <arraybolt3> So stuff like a 10-15 MB image might seem large to you (and indeed, it is), but from a developer standpoint, they're going to look at that and say "Oh brother, I have to make a packaging update for Cheese, forwarding it to Debian and to the upstream repo if I want to really get rid of this. That's going to take me three hours. For 15 MB of savings? No."
[02:09] <arraybolt3> If you can find something that takes up 100 MB, that might be worth it. If you can find something that takes up 500 MB, that might really get someone's attention and be worth it. 10-15 MB is not going to be very convincing unless you have a full-on Ubuntu Developer who is personally willing to put in those three hours of work.
[02:09] <arraybolt3> The easiest way to do that... is probably to try to help in other areas of Ubuntu, learning the needed skills until you *become* that Ubuntu Developer.
[02:09] <BloatJanitor> I do see that launchpad supports git now. Does it support ticketing and PRs, then? I see most things there but then some things are on github.
[02:10] <arraybolt3> Launchpad calles them Merge Requests, but yeah, it does support that sort of stuff.
[02:11] <arraybolt3> Launchpad is also a *pain* to use though :P Basically you don't "fork" a repo, you clone it and then you push it into your own LP profile as if you had already forked the repo and were simply pushing into it. That triggers LP to make a fork, and then you can make an MR.
[02:11] <BloatJanitor> What...
[02:11] <arraybolt3> It's probably going to be tricky the first time around, but once you get the hang of it it's livable. I'd be happy to help out if I'm around when you're trying it.
[02:11] <BloatJanitor> That sounds like... bazaar or whatever that was called
[02:12] <arraybolt3> lol, no that is Git. Welcome to Crash...ER...Launchpad.
[02:12] <arraybolt3> Lets just say I personally think Canonical maybe should have put more thought into UX when they were making LP.
[02:13] <arraybolt3> But it is what it is, we fight with it the first few times and then live with it relatively happily thereafter.
[02:13] <BloatJanitor> Is there a github/lab plugin or tea forwarder?
[02:13] <arraybolt3> Not that I know of.
[02:13] <sarnold> arraybolt3: the biggest problem was stopping investment in LP when it became clear github 'won'
[02:14] <sarnold> arraybolt3: thankfully we're investing in it again but with a decade of playing catchup..
[02:14] <arraybolt3> \o/
[02:58] <BloatJanitor> I have to be missing something here. The masked over gnome-store, is that still installed by default on a non-minimal installation?
[03:01] <arraybolt3> lol, I tried to find it and now can't :P
[03:01] <arraybolt3> Where on earth does ubuntu-software even come from...
[03:02] <arraybolt3> Gah. The seeded-in-ubuntu script isn't finding it.
[03:02] <arraybolt3> I can see that gnome-software is *not* in Ubuntu Desktop at all, but I'm not sure where the usual Ubuntu Software app comes from. Might be snap-store?
[03:03] <BloatJanitor> So I think the metas pull in appstream as a recommends. the lib is still needed for nautilus share and apturl
[03:03] <BloatJanitor> but appstream pulls in the apt icon stuff
[03:04] <BloatJanitor> Snap store runs without it and the icons and stuff load without it. I do see an appstream-generator but not by default
[03:04] <BloatJanitor> Unless i'm missing something internally that is part of the daemon or something
[03:05] <BloatJanitor> I assumed it was from the gnome-store or ubuntu-software originally. idk anymore. Best guess above.
[04:30] <lotuspsychje> good morning